Horses and Mules after the War

[Guest MaryFM]

Hi everyone

I hope I'm in the right place.

As an life long horse lover I have been wondering what happened to all the horses & mules after the war ended.

Did the general public in the UK have the chance to buy a horse back to replace one taken for war use?

With thanks

Mary

[Joe Sweeney]

Mary,

Not sure if this totally answers your question, but all surplus animals were divided into 4 veterinary classifications after the armistice.

a) 5 to 8 year olds

8 to 12 year olds

c) over 12 years

d) destroy

All were offered for sale with realized value being higher for those animals sold for work. Horses averaged £37+ and mules £36+.

Animals sold for other uses only averraged £20 in UK, but Italy bought them at the rate of £40 per head.

I don't have the breakdown of how the animals were disposed of or of those sold for work what type of means they were sold or auctioned. That is could indivduals purchase or did concerns/speculators account for most animals.

I come from a family obsessed by horses. Between my sister, mywife and in-laws we have 11 horses and one too intelligent, ne'er do well, free loading Mule----Jake:

[Guest MaryFM]

Hi Jake

Thank you for replying.

Loved the mule reminded me of a jennet I looked after years ago.

I have been a horse lover since I was born practically, right in front of the house I grew up in were the stables of three clydesdales that worked in the shipyards on the River Clyde.

I know it was part of life with horses in battle all the losses etc., I just wondered what happened afterwards I had visions of them all being shot for meat.

I know during WW2 quite a lot of restaurants were serving up horse as my father when working for the RAF went into one whilst in London much to the amusement of his mates.

Best wishes

Mary

[Tom Morgan]

From my fuddled remembrance of stuff I read years ago - I recall that there were instances of officers being invited to buy their chargers at the end of the war. I'm not saying that ALL officers were given the opportunity, but I remember reading about one officer who did so.

Tom

[Tom Morgan]

..............and wasn't there an Australian mounted unit which went home after the war very angry, because they had to leave their horses behind in France, for farmers to use?

Tom

[Patrick ODwyer]

Just to add to what Joe has written.

Many cavalry horses were sold in France and Belgium prior to their Regiments's cadre returning home.

[petrick]

The 13th Australian Light Horse had to leave their horse in france. On anzac day parade in London had to borrow horses from the Household Cav. Of all shame. And their trusted mounts were still doing their after the war bit in france. Stil haven't found a waler yet in France.

patrick

[paul guthrie]

I have read, no idea where, that some men shot their horses rather than turn them over to Arabs, perhaps others, that they thoght would treat them badly.

By the way Jake looks like whoever it was I last saw wearing Martha's straw hat! That was in uttely off by the way.

Horse lovers, you would sure enjoy a visit to Kentucky!

[ianw]

Yes, Paul, I also understand that many Australians, for good or ill, took their animals quietly away and shot them rather than let them fall into Arab hands.

[Kate Wills]

Mary,

This may answer some of your questions:

The Brooke Hospital for equines was started after the war by the wife of a British general. This is from their website http://www.thebrooke.org/htdocs/history_2.php

"In 1930, our founder, Mrs Dorothy Brooke, travelled to Egypt’s capital, Cairo, where she encountered thousands of ex-cavalry horses being used as beasts of burden on its streets. Many of them had seen service in the First World War…when the conflict ended in 1918 they had been sold by the British Army into a life of hard labour.

Mrs Brooke was tormented by the memory of the pitiful creatures she saw. On her return to England she wrote a letter to the Morning Post – which later became the Daily Telegraph – exposing their plight and appealing for funds to help her save them. The public was so moved they responded with the equivalent today of £20,000 to help end their suffering.

Within three years, Mrs Brooke had set up a committee to help fund the purchase of 5,000 of these tragic animals. Most were old and in the final stages of collapse and had to be humanely destroyed. But, thanks to this remarkable woman, they all ended their lives peacefully with love and dignity.

In 1934, Dorothy Brooke established the ‘Old War Horse Memorial Hospital’ to provide a free veterinary clinic for all the working horses and donkeys of Cairo.

From such simple but profoundly compassionate beginnings the Brooke has grown into the international equine lifesaver it is today.

From 1961 our operations in Egypt started to expand, and in 1988, we received a royal invitation to work in Jordan, from her Royal Highness Princess Alia al Hussein. We began working in Pakistan in 1991 and in India the following year.

Today, although the original hospital which Mrs Brooke established in Cairo’s Bayram El-Tonsi Street, still known locally as "The Street of the English Lady", is our oldest clinic, it has all the modern equipment to help the city’s working animals face the traumas of the 21st Century.

The 500,000 horses, donkeys and mules the Brooke reaches each year are a living testimony to the dedication and compassion of an extraordinary woman."

Dorothy Brooke sounds like a suitable research project, doesn't she (hint)!!

[petrick]

The horses that stay behind

in days to come we'll wander west and across the range again;

We'll hear the bush birds singing in the green trees after rain;

We'll canter through the Mitchel grass and breast the bracing wind;

But we'll have other horses. Our chargers stay behind.

Around the fire we'll yarn about old sinai;

We'll fight our batles o'er again; and as the days go by

There'll be old mates to greet us. The bush girls will be kind.

Still our thoughts will often wander to the horses left behind.

I don't think i could stand the thought of my old fancy hack

Just crawling round old Cairo with a Gyppo on his back.

Perhaps some English tourist out in Palestine may find

My broken hearted waler with a wooden plough behind.

NO; I think I'd better shoot him and tell a little lie;

"He floundered in a wombat hole and then lay down to die."

Maybe i'll get court-martialled; but iám damned if i'm inclined

To go back to Australia and leave my horse behind.

Trooper Bleugum

Yep and some of the mates did. No wonder iff you still see how the poor horses and mules are still treated in egypt to day.

coo-ee

patrick

[Guest Rob Thomas]

This story about the Australian Light Horse and the disposal of their horses continually raises its ugly head.

In 1918 there were 5 Brigades of LH in the Middle East and 1 unit in France.

These units were not permitted to return their horses to Australia because of the very strict quarantine regulations (which are still very strict to this day and in 1956 caused the Olympic Games equestrian events to be held in Europe).

There were 121,000 horses exported from Austraila in WWI as remounts.

There were 5 LH Brigades and 5 INfantry Divisions. A LH Brigade had in excess of 1500 horses per unit (552 men per Regiment (nominal), 3 Regiments per Brigade) and an Infantry Division would normally have 6000 horses under the British system. That is a very large number of horses to leave Australia.

At the end of the war all horses were classified under the British system mentioned earlier in this thread. The concept of men shooting their own horses is easily discredited by the records in the Australian War Memorial. According to these records 2250 horses were destroyed using the classification system and around 200 horses were destroyed in breach of regulations.

The concept that the men shot their own horses is a highly emotive issue and it is difficult to dispel this myth. One of the most common statements made when manning displays over the years is "My grandfather shot his own horse!" Such a pity that the poems of Trooper Bluegum and the writting of Ion Iddriess have created such a long standing misunderstanding.

[duckman]

The concept that the men shot their own horses is a highly emotive issue and it is difficult to dispel this myth.

Made more difficult by some of the people who were there maintaining that it was not a "myth" at all. Pests!

As a child, I lived down the street from an ex-Lighthorseman. He was a family friend, a casual but close relationship. I rarely heard him talk about the war, but I do remember his emotion when talking about leaving behind his mount. He maintained that some* in his unit shot them rather than "leave them to the Arabs", although he could not bring himself to follow suit. At a distance of 50+ years, he was still deeply affected by it. On the premise that he was upset by a real memory, and not a "myth", I guess I can only conclude that these were just part of the 2,500 that Rob Thomas refers to, and Bill was just unlucky to have been a part of it.

*I never thought to ascertain whether that "some" represented 1% or 99%

[Guest dinkidi]

G'day Rob, Duckman!

There does still seems to be that emotion, and that can't be all bad.

My first reaction was that Troopers Bluegum & Idriess were THERE!

They went there for reasons other than looking after their horses welfare, and I would respect their opinions, even on such mundane topics as Bully Beef & the competence of High Command. Even so, Trooper Idriess had actually RTA'd long before the fate of the horses had been decided. We can only guess at their motives in recording their thoughts at all, and it would no doubt amaze them, that of all the millions of words written about WW1, that their personal efforts would be discussed into the 21st century.

From this distance in time, it might seem strange to consider that men felt more deeply about abandoning their horses than about leaving so many of their mates in marked and unmarked graves, and knowing that 000's of others were doomed to a life of suffering. Perhaps, at that time, it was more acceptable to 'transfer' the emotion from men to the horses. By 1918 the old "I hope they don't hear us go" of 1915 was perhaps getting a trifle overdone.

Anyway, we might now get an idea of the 1 and 99 percent ratios.

ooRoo

Pat

[Guest Rob Thomas]

Duckman

As much as you might like to believe your old friend, there is no unit that destroyed all its horse. The unit diaries detail the horses that were returned to the remount units and the figures for those to be destroyed rarely exceed 10% of the unit strength. We have all heard the stories and the emotion behind them but in many cases as you undertake research you will find that the stories begin to reflect other peoples experiences and the tellers take on "ownership" of stories they have read or heard.

Oral history in more modern times is fraught with difficulty because the art of telling stories has often been distorted. There is a tendency to extend stories and enlarge on facts so that there is a greater emphasis and this is something that has over the years grown with the telling of many stories about the Australian Light Horse, a habit that is totally unnecessary because the deeds were worthy enough without embellishment. The necessity for researchers to return to primary sources has never been stronger, and in this case the information is readily available in the files at the AWM.

There are 200 odd cases of "illegal disposal" that would fit the description provided by Bluegum. These cases are the basis for this myth.

There are figures available for the sale of the remainder of the horses and many of them went for top prices. 600 mares were shipped to Britain for breeding, 1000 were sold to the Government of Finland (An icy change from the Australian Landscape to the Middle East and then to Finland). The majority of the horses went to the Indian Army and the British Army that remained in Palestine.

It is essential that this information is disseminated and the truth placed in the public arena

Rob

[Guest dinkidi]

G'day

Today I asked the son of a light horseman if his father had ever discussed the fate of his horse, and whether he felt it was a traumatic experience. The son said Yes & Yes, it was traumatic.

But then he laughed!

At war's end he was billeted, with his horse, at the home of "motherly" French lady.

His horse was accidently injured and had to be put down. Being a little upset he left the despatch to the Vet. The next day his Landlady tried to cheer him up with a special treat. On finally realising what the main ingredient of the special meal was, the trooper lost his appetite and the wild bushman went bush very smartly.

ooRoo

[michaeldr]

The majority of the horses went to the Indian Army and the British Army that remained in Palestine.

Rob,

You can add to that list, the Palestine Police which the British were busy forming at that time and for which they desperately needed mounts.

Equipment was also part of the deal; a friend of mine still rides using an old ALH saddle of this vintage

Regards

Michael D.R.

[paul guthrie]

Very interesting Rob. If this is largely myth, & I think you know what you are talking about, it seems myth unnecessary cause horse remained in British hands, not streets of Cairo. How many were sold to local people?

[Guest stevenbec]

Can I also add,

That by the time of the animals being classified for disposal either to the Indian Army or death that both Trooper Bluegum and Idriess had left Egypt/Palestine.

Trooper Bluegum/Capt Oliver Hogue had gone to the UK and died there and Idriess had RTA in late 1918 from the effects of malaria.

These men like many old soldiers/Light horseman didn't see any animals destroyed, but heard about it from there mates or from the popular stories that went threw the country at the time, and you know that one and two make five.

Few soldiers got to shoot their horses and those that did were under orders of a Vet Officer. Only one account on record tells of having to shot his horse and that of a soldier from the 10th ALHR and like I said under Vet officers orders when the 3rd LH Bde finished its grading of animals and those unfit were disposed off by a duty party from all regt's.

S.B

[Guest Rob Thomas]

Your comments support my research findings Steve.

Paul

The horses in the main did remain in the control of the British military. Some were sold to private buyers in the Middle East but these were in a very small minority. Some were gifted to important people (I have one record of 100 small horses - too small to be used by a peace time army but big enough in the war period) being given by 1st Remounts to a senior Arab offical).

It is a most unnecessary and unfortunate myth that is proving very hard to overcome.

Rob

[Guest dinkidi]

THE LAST PARADE

With never a sound of trumpet, with never a flag displayed,

The last of the old campaigners lined up for the last parade.

Weary they were and battered, shoeless and knocked about;

From under their ragged forelocks, their hungry eyes looked out.

And they watched as the old commander read out, to the cheering men,

The Nation's thanks and the orders to carry them home again.

And the last of the old campaigners, sinewy, lean, and spare --

He spoke for his hungry comrades: Have we not done our share?

Starving and tired and thirsty, we limped on the blazing plain;

And after a long night's picket You saddled us up again.

We froze on the windswept kopjes, when the frost lay snowy white.

Never a halt in the daytime,never a rest at night!

We knew when the rifles rattled, from the hillside bare and brown,

And over our weary shoulders we felt warm blood run down.

As we turned for the stretching gallop, crushed to the earth with weight;

But we carried our riders through it -- Carried them p'raps too late.

Steel! We were steel to stand it -- we that have lasted through,

We that are old campaigners, Pitiful, poor ' and few.

Over the sea you brought us, over the leagues of foam:

Now we have served you fairly, Will you not take us home?

Home to the Hunter River, to the flats where the lucerne grows;

Home where the Murrumbidgee runs white with the melted snows.

This is a small thing, surely! Will you not give command

That the last of the old campaigners go back to their native land?

They looked at the grim commander, but never a sign he made.

"Dismiss!" and the old campaigners moved off from their last parade.

A B Paterson.

Please note that this referred to the Boer War. Banjo Paterson's Man from Snowy River & Clancy were part of the culture of the Australia in which most WW1 soldiers grew up, and, with poems like this ,"represented" their home whilst overseas. It might seem a little strange from this distance but the mens attitudes towards their horses may have been coloured by this romanticised literature. The absolute reliance placed on their horses is probably more genuine, and perhaps more realistic.

[duckman]

Duckman

As much as you might like to believe your old friend, there is no unit that destroyed all its horse.

Hi Rob,

I never claimed that, not in any of the three copies I managed to incompetantly post. Perhaps a re-read of the one remaining is in order. And thanks for the word-up on oral history. Had no idea it could be so fraught...

I'm happy to accept your figures that 2,450 out of 121,000 horses were destroyed, within or without Regulations. However, I have reservations about your free and easy use of the term "myth". If your "myth" is along the lines of "All ALH horses were destroyed rather than being returned", then I am happy to read your figures as a complete destruction of it. However, in the absence of any greater clarity, I read your "myth" as "any such claims you hear are bunk", in which case I'm not surprised that you find it "hard to overcome." .

All I can repeat is that I was informed by a now-dead Lighthorseman - who was there, unlike Idriess and Bluegum - that he witnessed some mates shooting their own horses. Was that truthful? I don't know. Was that typical? Apparently not. But as long as you use the "M" word, people like me who heard it from people who were there will get their backs up. By your own figures there were 200 men who could truthfully claim it was done, and doubtless many others who witnessed. For them it was no myth...

None of which really impacts on the original point of this thread. So I'll quietly back away and free the field for answers to Mary's question.

[Tim Birch]

I know it was part of life with horses in battle all the losses etc., I just wondered what happened afterwards I had visions of them all being shot for meat.

Mary

I suspect that in Germany, where there were terrible food shortages and starvation, following the blockade, many horses would have finished up on the dinner table!

Tim

[mordac]

The following quote is from Canon Frederick Scott's book, The Great War As I Saw It. I often wondered why Canon Scott couldn't have made arrangements to have his horse, Dandy, sent home to Canada with him in 1919. He seems to have had some pull of a number of Canadian generals.

"When we were at Bethune a very important event in my military career took place. In answer to repeated requests, Headquarters procured me a horse. I am told that the one sent to me came by mistake, and was not that which they intended me to have. The one I was to have, I heard, was the traditional padré's horse, heavy, slow, unemotional, and with knees ready at all times to sink in prayer. The animal sent to me, however, was a high-spirited chestnut brown thoroughbred, very pretty, very lively, and neck-reined. It had once belonged to an Indian general, and was partly Arab. Poor Dandy was my constant companion to the end. After the Armistice, to prevent him being sold to the Belgian Army, he was mercifully shot, by the orders of our A.D.V.C."

Garth

[Guest stevenbec]

There is a quote from a John Wayne movie I like to mention at times like this.

It comes from the movie "Liberty Valence" and in relation to the death of Liberty by John Wayne and not Jimmy Stewart, who had been given credit for his shooting. The reporter says that "when the Legand becames fact, print the Legand not the facts".

This I feel is the situation involving the shooting of horses by Lighthorseman at the end of the war.

Who I am I to tell an old bloke his memory is wrong. But after all the old soldiers have now pasted do we still print the legand or do we print the true.

Then again what is true?

S.B