bkristof Posted 10 June , 2004 Share Posted 10 June , 2004 it is only 2 km from tyne cot. Cycling is nice there BUT don't misjudge the ridges, they can be hard to cycle on them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joanne Posted 10 June , 2004 Share Posted 10 June , 2004 Thanks Dave to tell me, i live nearby Joanne. I already know where the exact spot is !!!! That's great Kristoff, It will be amazing to visit this place. I'll send you an email when I work out logistics - do you think it is possible to cycle to some of the sites? (or would it be too far?) Many thanks Joanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 10 June , 2004 Share Posted 10 June , 2004 It is certainly possible. Offcourse a car can bring you to, sometimes, more intersting places. If you want to stay close to tyne cot i recommend VARLET FARM a B&B nearby + very good hosts. there is a link on our living history website, click on tourism in the salient. the link to our website is in my signature... If you should book there tell them you know me, then they know how to contact me too. I often guide people staying there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joanne Posted 10 June , 2004 Share Posted 10 June , 2004 Joanne This link gives a reasonable list of some of the smaller operators http://www.firstworldwar.com/warontheweb/tourops.htm Regards Andy Hi Andy Just to say that this is a really good link and very helpful for all the smaller operators. Quite a choice actually. Cheers Joanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 10 June , 2004 Share Posted 10 June , 2004 Just be carefull Joanne with the local "front tour" busses picking up people at the Ypres market. Some are "junk" and selling lies and fairytales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joanne Posted 10 June , 2004 Share Posted 10 June , 2004 It is certainly possible. Offcourse a car can bring you to, sometimes, more intersting places. If you want to stay close to tyne cot i recommend VARLET FARM a B&B nearby + very good hosts. there is a link on our living history website, click on tourism in the salient. the link to our website is in my signature... If you should book there tell them you know me, then they know how to contact me too. I often guide people staying there. Great, sounds like a good option, it would be good to be closeby. I'll certainly have a look on your website. Thanks for all your help. Joanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_59 Posted 10 June , 2004 Share Posted 10 June , 2004 It is best to avoid waisting time travelling to a destination. Just leaves you with less time. dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 11 June , 2004 Share Posted 11 June , 2004 Joanne, Coming late into the discussion I will still add my own views. For a first visit I would lean towards one of the reputable tour companies. You will have the bonus of travelling with like minded people some of whom will be really knowledgable. You never get to see everything, but you do get to see as much variety as time allows. What I can tell you is that having been on your first visit so much more of your reading and research begins to fall into place. Personally I would not worry unduly about not making one (or even all) of your personal visits on your first trip if it is with a party. I presume that you do not think it will be your one and only trip, so start by getting a feel for the Western Front in general and perhaps making one of your visits. A subsequent trip under your own steam would then give you the opportunity to explore the more personal visits without having a crowd around you and without any time constraints and without feeling a little "all at sea & not knowing what to expect". I often feel that I should do more background research & reading before a trip but eventually find it easier to do the work once I have a feel for the area. Add to that the fact that there is always something you want to go back for. Above all enjoy the trip. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joanne Posted 11 June , 2004 Share Posted 11 June , 2004 Cheers Martin Thanks for putting a visit to the battlefields into perspective. The Great War is an overwhelming subject. So getting a sense of what is possible on a first trip is a useful way for me to think about it. I guess my one personal priority would be to visit the place where my great uncle died. It just seems the right thing to do. After that I can be flexible and as you say perhaps aim to just get a feel for the area. Your thoughts are appreciated. Best wishes Joanne Dave Thanks for that point as well....true the time it takes to travel does cut down on how long I can spend there. So, that indeed is something to think about. Cheers Joanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlotte cardoen-descamps Posted 11 June , 2004 Share Posted 11 June , 2004 Dear Joanne, The farm you mentioned in one of your previous messages are about 1 mile east of our farm . Looking at Bellevue Ridge they are all North of it. The distance from that area to the centre of Passendale (as it is spelled now) is 2 km. Hope this helps in your search to pinpoint where your great uncle was killed. I do have trench maps covering that area but my computer skills are too restricted to get a scan on the forum... Charlotte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 11 June , 2004 Share Posted 11 June , 2004 Joanne, I would also heartily recommend Charlotte and Varlet Farm to you as a great place to stay and from which to visit the area you are interested in. You couldn't find a nicer host in the Ypres area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joanne Posted 12 June , 2004 Share Posted 12 June , 2004 Dear Joanne, The farm you mentioned in one of your previous messages are about 1 mile east of our farm . Looking at Bellevue Ridge they are all North of it. The distance from that area to the centre of Passendale (as it is spelled now) is 2 km. Hope this helps in your search to pinpoint where your great uncle was killed. I do have trench maps covering that area but my computer skills are too restricted to get a scan on the forum... Charlotte Many thanks for your posting Charlotte, that is hugely helpful. The fact the two farms are north of Bellevue ridge makes sense in terms of what is wriiten in the war diary for that night. I appreciate you trying to get the trench map on the forum and I totally know what you mean about technical problems! If you do manage it that's brilliant but if not, I really appreciate this piece of information. Does your farm date from that period? If it does, it might well be in the war diary. Quite a thought Charlotte. Thanks again. All the best. Joanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joanne Posted 12 June , 2004 Share Posted 12 June , 2004 Joanne, I would also heartily recommend Charlotte and Varlet Farm to you as a great place to stay and from which to visit the area you are interested in. You couldn't find a nicer host in the Ypres area. Cheers Ian, Many thanks for the recommendation. Personal commendations are always the most useful! All the best. Joanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 12 June , 2004 Share Posted 12 June , 2004 Joanne, Not wishing to second guess what Charlotte might say but, yes , Varlet Farm was a feature of the battlefield, is itself on the trench maps and was attacked and taken by the Royal Naval Division in October(?)1917. Charlotte has quite a museum of artefacts dug from the surrounding fields - and makes great coffee and serves home-made cakes as well ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlotte cardoen-descamps Posted 12 June , 2004 Share Posted 12 June , 2004 Hello Joanne, I hope you realise that all buildings in this area have been destroyed during the Great War. So the answer to your question is no, as the present farm has been established in 1922. However the original farm, which was establiished some 70 m east of the present builldings, can easily be recognised on trench maps as it was surrounded by a moat. It was known to be a German strong point, heavily defended with machine guns and barbed wire. The name Varlet Farm was given at some point during the war as the original name of the farm is "Wallemolenhof". This name made sense as in Dutch "wal " means "moat, the word "molen" means "mill" and then "hof" means "farm". The Dutch name of the farm refers to a moated farm nearby a mill (which has also been destroyed during the war and has never been rebuild). Why our farm was named "Varlet Farm", that I do not know but is was common to name farm in a sector of the battlefield with a name starting with the same letter, hence names as Void, Vanitiy, Veal, Vapour, Vat in this area. However the logic was not always there as the first farm West of ours is named "Inch Houses" and there is not any other farm nearby which has a name starting with "i"... Hope this answers your question. best wishes, Charlotte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joanne Posted 12 June , 2004 Share Posted 12 June , 2004 Hi Charlotte, Ian - thank you so much this is truely fasinating. I am reading the photocopies of the war diary and picturing the area. I guessed many of the buildings would have been destroyed in the Great War but knowing you are close to the place is quite something. I would like to quote the diary let me know if it means anything to you. From the 16th HLI war diary 2/12/1917 'At zero hour (1.55am) The battalion advanced (from Bellevue). It was at once met with intense enemy machine gun fire from the directions of Mallet Copse, Vox Farm, Void Farm and Hill 52. The enemy pillbox and trenches at Vox Farm were at once rushed and the garrison disposed of 50 prisoners being sent to the rear. Two enemy machine guns were captured here...... The concentrated MG fire had seriously thinned our ranks, and this fire was not checked until our barrage was put down at 2.3 (0?)am. (Hugh may have been killed during this advance. The diary goes on......) The advance was then continued and at 2.40 a line running E and W through Void Farm was reached. By this time touch had been lost with the unit on our left. Captain Davidson and 2nd Leut Bennie were killed...while endeavouring to locate the unit. The unit on our right had been caught in the enemy barrage and was unable to get forward, so that our right flank was exposed. The remnants of the battalion consolidated two positions on the line of our first objective .......until orders were received to withdraw on 3 December 1917.' It goes on to say that heavy counter shelling lasted during the coming day and that battalion headquarters at Bellevue suffered a direct hit killing 2 officers and 7 ORs (or Hugh may have died here). Anyway, if you have any other thoughts, I would be grateful and once more thank you so much for this info. I'll definitely be there...will email you off the forum. All the best Joanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 13 June , 2004 Share Posted 13 June , 2004 Joanne, The area described is a little NW of Passchendaele village and close to Mosselmarkt. This action is actually after the date that Third Ypres is designated as finishing (10.11.17) but obviously hostilities at a local level continued. The 2 officers you mention are both on the Tyne Cot Memorial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joanne Posted 17 June , 2004 Share Posted 17 June , 2004 Hi Ian Thanks again. I also read that as well that Ypres had officially finished on 10/11/1917. But I actually feel annoyed and sad at this because obviously the 16th HLI and others were involved in action after that date. And it just seems a little disrespectful of their suffering to record that action on Ypres had ended on 10/11/1917, when Hugh and others were killed on 2/12/1917. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense? When I go to Tyne Cot I will look out for the names of those who were mention in the diary. Thank you again for that. Best wishes. Joanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 18 June , 2004 Share Posted 18 June , 2004 Joanne Please don't be upset that your man did not die during one of the set-piece battles. Remember that men died every day during the Great War and the best way to be respectful to them ALL is to remember them. I have been to Tyne Cot 3 times and have always found it an amazing place (come rain or shine). I especially like the church-like design of the graveyard. It may be the single largest CWGC graveyard in the world but, to me anyway, still manages to retain a certain intimicy - probably someting to do with uncle Bert . Regards Andy PS found your 2 officers - panel 131 to 132 on the memorial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joanne Posted 18 June , 2004 Share Posted 18 June , 2004 Hi Andy, Thanks for that. Yes I wholeheartedly agree that we should remember all those in who died in every circumstances (and from every country) during the Great War. I am really not at all concerned that Hugh did not die at one of the set piece battles. But to me when official accounts say that action on Ypres ended in November 1917 it gives the false impression that men did not continue to fight and die in operations in the area after that date. The offensive of the 16th HLI in capturing a machine gun stronghold and taking 50 prisoners, with 23 dead and 179 wounded on 2 Dec 1917...show that operations continued, and that should be recognised. But perhaps I am just defensive of the 16th HLI and great uncle Hugh! Thank you very much for describing Tyne Cot. I look forward to seeing it too. I'll say hello to Uncle Bert when I get there! What was his regiment? Best wishes and many thanks for your comments Joanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 19 June , 2004 Share Posted 19 June , 2004 Joanne Uncle Bert is in the top left hand section of the choir. 4th row from the back, 8th one in from the right edge of the section - officially LXIV. G. 12. I'm sure that he will be pleased to see you. All the best. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 19 June , 2004 Share Posted 19 June , 2004 Joanne, My Great Uncle similarly died near Ypres in February 1916 - again a date not included within the "official"dates of 1st , 2nd or 3rd Ypres but that does not mean his sacrifice was less important than that of any other man. I still proudly go to see his name on the Menin Gate - on behalf of his brother , my grandfather, who survived the war and went to the inauguration of the Menin Gate. I am therefore able to stand in front of my Great Uncle's name precisely where my grandfather would have stood to pay his tribute when my mother was aged 1 ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joanne Posted 19 June , 2004 Share Posted 19 June , 2004 That is just amazing Ian. It must be incredibly moving. I find it, I don't know how to put this, but incredible that after all these years, the descendants of these men in a way have a better understanding of their suffering than their friends and family at home at the time. Not to say we can ever fully understand. But in a way, they are not dead because they live inside of us. That is, by discussing and reflecting on their lives they are alive in our lives, which is pretty incredible. A singer called Alice Martineau wrote a song called 'Let me live inside of you', she had cystic fibrosis and died recently at the age 30 years. But her song summed up what I feel about my research on a young man who I've never known but am conected to genetically and emotionally. Gosh is that a bit too deep. Must be late at night! Best wishes Joanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 20 June , 2004 Share Posted 20 June , 2004 Yes, Joanne, I agree that we are often in a position to know more about the sufferings of these soldiers than was known contemporaneously. Cheap travel also makes it possible for us to visit graves on the Western Front on a day trip and even go to Palestine, Turkey etc. I will be taking relatives across to Ypres this year and it's a real pleasure when they express amazement at the detailed information that can be found about their Great War forebears - and then the Menin Gate at 8pm just completes the job by utterly blowing them away ! As for emotion, I still recall most of a coach party with smiles on their faces and tears in their eyes watching a man lay a wreath on a grave at Ovillers for an uncle he never knew. A first family visit after 80 years or so - worthy of a tear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 21 June , 2004 Share Posted 21 June , 2004 On my 2d trip in 97 I got to take an elderly Aussie form Wipers to Kemmel Chateau to the grave of an uncle, it had not been visited by family, it was great to be able to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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