33rd (City of London) Bn (Rifle Brigade)

[Peter J]

Would anyone have, or happen to know where I could find, an image of the cap badge for the 33rd (City of London) Battalion (Rifle Brigade) please?

Many thanks,

P.

[River97]

Peter,

Have a look at this link as it might give you an idea.

Oh, and I have nothing to do with the listing.

Cheers Andy.

[Peter J]

Thanks Andy.

So would I be correct in thinking that the 33rd were the 'Prince Consort's Own', or am I way off centre?

Regards,

P.

[MBrockway]

Thanks Andy.

So would I be correct in thinking that the 33rd were the 'Prince Consort's Own', or am I way off centre?

Regards,

P.

Peter,

I'm afraid I think you may have been very slightly misdirected here! ... although there is in fact a good chance that this unit was cap badged to the Rifle Brigade!

This is in fact a rather thorny problem! I'll try to explain

There was no 33rd Battalion in the regiment called The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own) (referred to hereafter simply as The Rifle Brigade).

There was a 33rd Battalion in the London Regiment. It's full title was 33rd (City of London) Battalion, the London Regiment.

I think this is the unit you're looking for.

The London Regiment in theory consisted entirely of territorial (i.e. volunteer) battalions.

Most of these battalions were affiliated to one of these regular regiments ...

• Royal Fusiliers
• King's Royal Rifle Corps (KRRC)
• The Rifle Brigade (RB)
• East Surreys
• Royal West Kents

Late in the War, post conscription, the distinction between territorial "volunteers" and regular units had become rather academic.

33rd Londons was in fact a rather short-lived unit. It was formed in Clacton-on-Sea in early June 1918 from the remnants of the 7th (Service) Battalion of The Rifle Brigade (7/RB) - the oldest of The Rifle Brigade's Kitchener battalions - which had been nearly annihilated trying to stem the German Kaiserschlacht Spring Offensive in late March 1918. The remnants of 7th KRRC, which had been destroyed at the same time, was similarly formed into 34th Londons.

On 18 June, the Battalion moved to Pirbright, and joined the 41st Brigade in 14th (Light) Division. This was 7/RB's old Brigade. On 3 July 1918 they landed at Boulogne. The Division then took part in the Battle of Ypres 28 Sep-2 Oct 1918 and Battle of Courtrai 14-19 Oct 1918, but I have no information on the exact movements of 33rd Londons.

The battalion then was formed of new recruits built onto a small cadre of old 7th Rifle Brigade New Army men.

As regards their cap badge - there I'm stumped, and in fact was watching this Topic hoping someone would give an authoritative answer!

There was no overall London Regiment cap badge. Each battalion had their own individual badge, which was usually based on the badge of the regular regiment to which they were affiliated. Given how the 33rd Londons came into being, we should expect to see a badge based on the Rifle Brigade's.

There is a difficulty though: part of the unique traditions of the rifles regiments (the King's Royal Rifle Corps (KRRC) and The Rifle Brigade (RB)) is that they do not carry their regimental battle honours on a banner or standard, but on the cap badge itself.

For that reason, the more established London Regiment battalions linked to the KRRC and the RB had plainer badges with the battle honours of the senior regiments missed off and replaced by their own (where they had them), which at the time were all South Africa 1900-02. You need to understand that the Territorial Force's intended role had been home defence, not overseas offensive action, so battle honours before the Boer War were unusual.

It would have been a breach of military ettiquette for a new battalion in the London Regiment to have the battle honours of another, different and older, regiment on its cap badge, so in theory at least, 33rd Londons and 34th Londons should not have worn the RB nor KRRC respectively.

Likewise they could not have worn the Rifle Brigade-style badges of the older London Regiment battalions because these all displayed their own individual battle honours - South Africa 1900-02 with some carrying Egypt 1882.

One possibility might be that 33rd Londons used a plain militia version of the RB badge with no battle honours at all. I have seen a plain KRRC maltese cross badge like that, so an RB equivalent probably existed, but I have never seen an example (but I have not looked very hard - KRRC is my main interest).

It's possible the TF Supernumerary Companies forced onto the RB as the 18th-24th territorial battalions may have worn a badge like this - Andy may have info on that.

Another possibility might be a General Service badge, but that would have been a horrifying, even humiliating, prospect to the old 7/RB veterans.

And the final possibility is that the RB allowed the unit to wear the full Rifle Brigade cap badge as a concession out of respect for the unit's RB origins.

I cannot give a definitive answer - sorry.

Andy may know more, or possibly one of the Londons experts like Charles Fair, but to be honest, I can't even say definitively what badge was worn by the 34th Londons ... and they're directly linked to the KRRC, my own main interest.

Cheers,

Mark

PS

You may find these topics helpful on rifles-Londons affilliations and their badges:

London Regiment's former Volunteer Rifle Corps units, Links between LR, KRRC and Rifle Brigade

Battalions of the London Regiment, 10th; 23rd, 32nd

Affiliation of the London Rifle Brigade, final conclusions

This post covers the KRRC badges, not the RB, but it may make my points about the battle honours clearer:

Badges of KKRC & the KRRC-affiliated Londons - identity parade

[max7474]

I think you will find that the Bn casulaties had the RB cap badge on their graves.

They certainly did not have a blank scroll version as the ACD had made the decision for all Bns to wear the standard Regualr badges by then.

While I undertand the reasoning for this statement, I do not agree with it:

'It would have been a breach of military ettiquette for a new battalion in the London Regiment to have the battle honours of another, different and older, regiment on its cap badge, so in theory at least, 33rd Londons and 34th Londons should not have worn the RB nor KRRC respectively.'

By 1917 all of the sentimentality for the different badges had been done away with. The same goes for the 34th. The TF Bns were no longer supplied with SA Scroll or blank scroll badge and were issued the the usual Regular Bn badges. The Service Bns had been wearing the Regular badges from 1915 anyway and they were even junior so the precedent had already been set.

Also that dreadful fake badge on ebay is not the WW1 pattern badge but the later one that was introduced in the 1930s. Don't buy it as it is the wrong one and you only fund further fakery.

[MBrockway]

I think you will find that the Bn casulaties had the RB cap badge on their graves.

<snip>

By 1917 all of the sentimentality for the different badges had been done away with. The same goes for the 34th. The TF Bns were no longer supplied with SA Scroll or blank scroll badge and were issued the the usual Regular Bn badges.

Max,

I think the insignia used on the grave markers would be very good evidence - excellent suggestion.

Can anyone post images of 33rd Londons and 34th Londons grave markers?

Also I have no evidence of any formal territorial affiliation between the 34th Londons and the KRRC. Nor for the 33rd Londons and the RB, though my RB material is less extensive anyway.

The affiliations in Army Order 250 and AO 325 from 1916 (which re-established the pre-1908 links between the Londons battalions and the KRRC and RB) pre-date the raising of these two new Londons battalions. Any idea if there was an AO in 1918 which covered them?

Lastly are you suggesting (see my italics in your quote above) that after 1917 all of the Londons battalions with affiliations to the KRRC and the RB switched to using the standard KRRC and RB cap badges instead of their battalion-specific variants?

Totally agree about the fleaBay fake too - dreadful!

Cheers,

Mark

Cheers,

Mark

[max7474]

Lastly are you suggesting (see my italics in your quote above) that after 1917 all of the Londons battalions with affiliations to the KRRC and the RB switched to using the standard KRRC and RB cap badges instead of their battalion-specific variants?

Mark,

No I am not but I am suggesting that the war raised ones did not have bn specific variants but wore either the RF, RB or KRRC badges.

In theory all of the 5th-28th Bns were supplied with their original pattern designs until the end of the war as the ACD produced sealed patterns for them all. Whether the reinforcements who went ot the London Regt at the end years of the war got them or not or continued to wear the standard Bn badges issued to them from the reinforcement bns is another matter.

This thread reaised the matter first and includes info on graves.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...london+regiment

I went through the relevent Regtl lists to identify which Bns were affiliated to which Regular Bns.

[MBrockway]

Excellent - thanks for that Max: I missed that thread last autumn as I was busy away from the Forum. As you know from our earlier Topics, I have an interest in the rifles badges and their look-a-likes, and the Londons battalions greater than 28th Btn have been vexing me for a while!

There was an extensive discussion about the exact affiliations of the Londons battalions a while back. There was some contradictory evidence about the LRB and the Shiny Seventh as well as the London Scottish & London Irish. It was resolved in the end by Wienand Drenth and Mike Shingleton digging out chapter and verse from the various Army Orders. I was sure Wienand had put images of them in his Topic linked above, but now I look, I can't find them - it might have only been on the BECForces forum.

I'm sure Wienand won't mind me posting two extracts here ...

This is a page from AO 250/1916 (publ 12 Jul 1916) it shows the re-affiliations of most of the Londons units back to the KRRC, the RB, the Gordon Highlanders, the Middlesex, East Surreys and RWKs. The RFs are on another page, but as you know, they got the 1st-4th btns back:

[image courtesy of Pal shinglma (Mike Shingleton) via Pal Wienand Drenth]

There was a minor adjustment later in the year under AO 325/1916 published in October where the LRB were switched from the KRRC to the RB, the Shiny Seventh to the Middlesex, and the London Irish to the Royal Irish Rifles:

It would be great to locate the equivalent AOs for the later hostilities-only battalions linked to the RF, RB and KRRC. We really would have dotted all the "i"'s and crossed all the "t"'s then!

Any ideas of the references?

Cheers,

Mark

[max7474]

Unfortunately I don't. Interesting that the Liverpool Scottish were cut away from the Kings Liverpools in 1916. I knew that they were linked to the Camerons following the 1937 reorg as they changed their badge to a Camerons style. I had no idea that it started as early as 1916. You learn something new every day!

Another interesting fact is that the 10th Hackneys eventually ended up as TA Berkshires in WW2 (having been RB affiliated in 1916 according to your document).

[Peter J]

Thanks one and all.

The thread has started to get just a little bit out of my depth, though I really appreciate all the help and amazing expertise.

Thanks again,

P.

[max7474]

Yes back to the original question. This is the badge I believe you were after.

[Peter J]

City and County of London War Memorial, Royal Exchange, Threadneedle Street, City of London:

Many thanks one and all.

P.

[MBrockway]

Peter,

Just to make everything absolutely clear ...

this is the 33rd battalion of the London Regiment, its full title being ...

33rd (City of London) Battalion (Rifle Brigade), The London Regiment.

It was not a battalion in The Rifle Brigade although it was almost certainly affiliated to The Rifle Brigade as a territorial unit.

I'm sure everyone here sees this, but just wanted to state it plainly for those who come after!

Cheers,

Mark

[Peter J]

Thank you, Mark.

It can certainly be confusing; when you look at the memorial's inscriptions in full, the 33rd is listed under the County of London Battalions. I suppose there is a logical reason why a 'County of London' battalion has 'City of London' in its title.

Many thanks,

Peter.

[stiletto_33853]

The 33rd Londons were cap badged to the Rifle Brigade as at first the whole of the 7th Rifle Brigade became the 33rd London's in the jiggery pokery of early 1918 when certain RB battalions disappeared. The 33rd Londons were formed at Clacton in June 1918 and came to France with the 14th Division, however quite a few ranks from various London Battalions joined at first but a vast majority of the 33rd were 7th Rifle Brigade.

Andy

[Guest DonKastre]

The 33rd Londons were cap badged to the Rifle Brigade as at first the whole of the 7th Rifle Brigade became the 33rd London's in the jiggery pokery of early 1918 when certain RB battalions disappeared. The 33rd Londons were formed at Clacton in June 1918 and came to France with the 14th Division, however quite a few ranks from various London Battalions joined at first but a vast majority of the 33rd were 7th Rifle Brigade.

Andy

Hi Andy

I thought you might like to know that the Private Henry Shephard was my Great Grandfather. Sadly I have very little information about him. Just thought I'd post this.

Thank you.

Andi

[8055Bell]

Thanks to everyone who posted on this thread.

I've been researching a 17th Bttn Manchester Regiment man who was posted to 33rd Bttn and served in France from 3/7/1918 to the Armistice. I picked up these dates from the VM/BWM Medal Roll which is very useful for 33rd Bttn. This gives no explanation why my man (Ernest Pollitt) was there, but also shows men in the Bttn from numerous Regiments. These include 2/6th Royal Warks, R, / 7 & 8 Liec R, / 1/6, 1/4, 10th & 2/4 W Riding R. / 2 Nothmlnd Fusils / DLI etc etc

The majority appear to have had no previous posting and must have been new recruits to 33rd.

Tim

[MBrockway]

For information and in reference to Peter's picture in Post #12 above, I believe the men of 7/KRRC followed a similar route into 34th London Regiment in early 1918, except unlike 7/RB and 33/Londons, they ended up in 16th (Irish) Division, rather than returning to the 14th (Light) Division, which had been the original division of both battalions.

Like 33/Londons, the cadre of 7/KRRC would also have been joined by a lot of fresh recruits from other training battalions.

Incidentally, the 33/Londons' war diary is transcribed on the Mother Site here: http://www.1914-1918.net/Diaries/wardiary-33London.htm

[MBrockway]

Thank you, Mark.

It can certainly be confusing; when you look at the memorial's inscriptions in full, the 33rd is listed under the County of London Battalions. I suppose there is a logical reason why a 'County of London' battalion has 'City of London' in its title.

Many thanks,

Peter.

Peter - I think it's as simple as wanting to keep the battalions listed in numeric sequence, which then left 33rd Londons high and dry in the County of London battalions section.

There's a picture of the full panel here: http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#view=photo&position=761&with_photo_id=14326719&order=date_desc&user=1864286

[MBrockway]

As a remaining loose end on this subject, can anyone clarify if 33rd and 34th battalions London Regt were part of the Territorial Force?

Certainly the 7/KRRC and 7/RB were duration of war Service battalions formed from K1 volunteers, but perhaps the distinction was largely academic by spring 1918.

[FROGSMILE]

As a remaining loose end on this subject, can anyone clarify if 33rd and 34th battalions London Regt were part of the Territorial Force?

Certainly the 7/KRRC and 7/RB were duration of war Service battalions formed from K1 volunteers, but perhaps the distinction was largely academic by spring 1918.

My understanding is that although the London Regiment ceased to exist after 1916 (until reformation in 1922), the battalions themselves, albeit affiliated with the various line regiments listed in the thread above, remained a part of the Territorial Force, which continued to exist.