Affiliation of the London Rifle Brigade

[Wienand Drenth]

Goodevening all,

People may remember a discussion on this forum earlier in April regarding the correct affiliation of the London Rifle Brigade between 1916 and 1926. See here for the thread in question, and the final post in which I presented some intermediate conlusions.

To refresh memories a little, we have Army Order 250 of 1916, being a Corps Warrant detailing the definition of Corps for the purposes of the Army Act. In this AO, the London Rifle Brigade is being listed under the corps of the King's Royal Rifle Corps. A new Corps Warrant in 1926, AO 49, shows the London Rifle Brigade listed under the Rifle Brigade. Also, we have an article by captain Bridgeman in the Rifle Brigade Chronicle of 1932, Bridgeman was adjutant of the London Rifle Brigade at that time, in which he states that the affiliation of the London Rifle Brigade and the Rifle Brigade dates from 1926 and not from 1916 as is generally assumed. The question is who was correct.

In my previous message I mentioned AO 325 of 1916 being an amendment to the Corps Warrant detailed in AO 250. In this amendment the London Rifle Brigade is put under the corps of the Rifle Brigade!

Assuming that a change of corps would have resulted in an amendment, I have asked Mike S to check all amendments between 1916 and 1926. If Bridgeman would be correct, there would be another amendment putting the London Rifle Brigade again under the corps of the King's Royal Rifle Corps.

Such an amendment does not seem to have been made, so the amendment in AO 325 of 1916 has to be seen as the final one related to the London Rifle Brigade before the new Corps Warrant of 1926. Henceforth, the conclusion must be that the London Rifle Brigade was part of the corps of the Rifle Brigade from 1916 on, and that captain Bridgeman was erroneous with his statement that this affiliation dates from 1926.

I hope that this result, though it does not change the generally accepted view, is found of use for members researching the London Rifle Brigade and related regiments.

Best regards,

Wienand

[chrrip]

Hi

To add to the debate as a LRB researcher; the History states very clearly that the LRB was placed in the Corps of the KRRC in July 1916 but 'shortly afterwards transferred by AO 325 to the Corps of the RB.

Anecdotally, permanent staff in 1914 were KRRC men (Adjt and WOs) but in early 20s following retirement of LRB Co & Adjt (Bates(1924) & Johnston(1922) were followed by RB officers; permanent staff were also RB men.

LRB was absorbed by RB in 1937 when London Regt abolished and its two battalions fought WWII as RB units; 7 & 8 RB. Army numbers were also changed at this time, LRB men (and Tower Hamlets, Queen Vics) allocated RB numbers.

Adts in 1932 Were Capt Paley succeeded by Capt Starkey

Chris

[MBrockway]

Wienand,

More excellent research! I hope that really is the final twist in the story

Is there any chance you could send me an image of AO325 of 1916 to complete the set?

I'm sorry I have not got back to you sooner - I've had a breakthrough on some research I've been doing for ten years or more into three WW2 commandos that were billeted with my grandfather in Ayr in 1941-42 when my mother was a wee girl! Now I have all of their names and unit details, and have discovered all three were on the St Nazaire Raid in 1942. Two were captured and the third died of wounds. Very brave and remarkable men.

GWF and BECForces have not been getting my usual level of attention I'm afraid!

Amazing how research can get stuck for years and then one little piece of new information breaks the logjam free!

Chris,

I can firm up your anecdotal evidence about the adjutants of the LRB a little ...

The LRB Adjutant from the commencement of hostilities until he was wounded on 13 May 1915 was Capt. A.C. Oppenheim, DSO, of the KRRC.

He was succeeded on that day by Lt. H.L. Johnson, who served until 07 April 1916, when Capt. F.H. Wallis took over. I have no definite information as to their original regiments, but I suspect they were LRB territorials appointed in the Field, rather than KRRC or RB.

I have no information on the adjutants after Capt Wallis though I'm afraid.

I'll need to check the notes Wienand, Andy and I have made on this, but I think Bridgeman was the LRB Adjutant from approx 1924 and was Rifle Brigade, IIRC. As Wienand has already said, he was certainly the Adjutant when AO49 was issued in 1926. Bridgeman may well be the RB Adjutant you mention as taking over from Johnston in 1922. Some London Gazette digging could probably sort all that out.

Once again well done Wienand (and Mike S) on an excellent piece of research.

Cheers,

Mark

[stiletto_33853]

It would seem that the AO's leave a lot to be desired in this case. We have talked about one of Michael's books before mentioning that the LRB came under the RB wing as a territorial battalion. Again in his booklet "The Rifle Brigade - Gallant Little Terriers" he states that in 1916 the LRB became a Territorial unit of the Rifle Brigade where he gives the lineage as for this period as

1908 - became 5th (City of London) Battalion The London Regiment (London Rifle Brigade)

1914-18 - 1/5th Battalion and 2/5th Battalion served in France and 3/5th Battalion raised as a training battalion.

1916 - Became a Territorial battalion of the Rifle Brigade

1922 - Became 5th City of London Regiment (London Rifle Brigade)

1937 - Became London Rifle Brigade, The Rifle Brigade

1939 - 2nd battalion raised

1939-45 - 1st and 2nd Battalion served in North Africa, Italy, France and Germany.

1941 - Became 7th Battalion The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consorts Own) (London Rifle Brigade) & 8th Battalion The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consorts Own) (London Rifle Brigade)

1947 - Became London Rifle Brigade, The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consorts Own)

1950 - Amalgamted with The Rangers to form London Rifle Brigade/Rangers, The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consorts Own)

and so on until 1969 - 5th Territorial Battalion, The Green Jackets reduced to a cadre.

Bear in mind that Michael was serving with the Rifle Brigade/Green Jackets.

Andy

[stiletto_33853]

In the Rifle Brigade medal rolls you will come across page after page of transfers between the London Rifle Brigade and The Rifle Brigade and The Rifle Brigade to the London Rifle Brigade, something I have not come across happening between the KRRC and the LRB in the KRRC medal rolls.

Andy

[Wienand Drenth]

Hello Andy,

Thank you for your reply.

What do you mean by saying that the AO's leave a lot to be desired? Perhaps I mistyped something, but the order of events seem perfectly clear to me.

Initially the 5th Londons were to be put under the corps of the KRRC, as detailed in the Corps Warrant of 1916 (AO 250), but this was amended in AO 325 which placed the 5th Londons under the corps of the Rifle Brigade. This latter is the same one that put the London Irish Rifles under the Royal Irish Rifles, and the 7th Londons under the Middlesex Regiment.

I think the whole discussion started with the remark in Bridgeman's article that the affiliation of the 5th London with the Rifle Brigade dates from 1926, and not from 1916. And careful reconstruction of Corps Warrants and amendments show that Bridgeman was not entirely correct. Despite the fact that he was adjutant of the 5th Londons in the 1930s. I think that one leason to be learnt from this all is that regimental histories should be taken "cum grano salis" when it comes to lineage!

The London Rifle Brigade and The Rangers did amalgamate in 1960 and not in 1950! I know that Frederick in his lineage book states 1950. But Army Lists of the 1950s, up to 1959, show The London Rifle Brigade and The Rangers as separate bodies.

cheers,

Wienand

It would seem that the AO's leave a lot to be desired in this case. We have talked about one of Michael's books before mentioning that the LRB came under the RB wing as a territorial battalion. Again in his booklet "The Rifle Brigade - Gallant Little Terriers" he states that in 1916 the LRB became a Territorial unit of the Rifle Brigade where he gives the lineage as for this period as

1908 - became 5th (City of London) Battalion The London Regiment (London Rifle Brigade)

1914-18 - 1/5th Battalion and 2/5th Battalion served in France and 3/5th Battalion raised as a training battalion.

1916 - Became a Territorial battalion of the Rifle Brigade

1922 - Became 5th City of London Regiment (London Rifle Brigade)

1937 - Became London Rifle Brigade, The Rifle Brigade

1939 - 2nd battalion raised

1939-45 - 1st and 2nd Battalion served in North Africa, Italy, France and Germany.

1941 - Became 7th Battalion The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consorts Own) (London Rifle Brigade) & 8th Battalion The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consorts Own) (London Rifle Brigade)

1947 - Became London Rifle Brigade, The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consorts Own)

1950 - Amalgamted with The Rangers to form London Rifle Brigade/Rangers, The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consorts Own)

and so on until 1969 - 5th Territorial Battalion, The Green Jackets reduced to a cadre.

Bear in mind that Michael was serving with the Rifle Brigade/Green Jackets.

Andy

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Wienand,

My apologies, you had laid it out quite well with A.O. 325 of 10/16 mentioning the transfer to the Rifle Brigade.

Andy

[chrrip]

Hello Wienand

The Regt History lists the Adjts of all 3 LRB Battalions; Johnston was commissioned into the 2nd Battalion in Aug 1914 from his Univ OTC, one of 21 Oxbridge officers to cross to france in November with 1st LRB; Wallis was commissioned in the field as you surmised (pre war Col Sgt); he commanded the Battalion from time to time; 1918 was Lt Col MC & 2 Bars; if anyone personified the LRB it was him.

I agree with Michael Haines key events/dates with one exception, LRB & Rangers merged in 1951; The last issue of the LRB Record in 1951 is a good source for this event; and the new unit published a booklet celebrating the history of both units up to merger; I have a copy; one of these days will learn how to post scans etc.

As Andy says, there was not a lot of interchange between the LRB and KRRC; and looking at the Rolls it was mainly LRB to KRRC; the biggest draft was in July 1916. Four of them were awarded the MM. A very large RB draft joined the LRB in March 18 after the 1st Bn was destroyed; many of these men had previously served with line Regts lot of ex Durhams and N' Fusiliers. Some years ago I set myself the task of trying to identify all the men who served with the LRB 14-18; using medals rolls as my primary source.

Chris

[Wienand Drenth]

Hello Wienand

The Regt History lists the Adjts of all 3 LRB Battalions; Johnston was commissioned into the 2nd Battalion in Aug 1914 from his Univ OTC, one of 21 Oxbridge officers to cross to france in November with 1st LRB; Wallis was commissioned in the field as you surmised (pre war Col Sgt); he commanded the Battalion from time to time; 1918 was Lt Col MC & 2 Bars; if anyone personified the LRB it was him.

I agree with Michael Haines key events/dates with one exception, LRB & Rangers merged in 1951; The last issue of the LRB Record in 1951 is a good source for this event; and the new unit published a booklet celebrating the history of both units up to merger; I have a copy; one of these days will learn how to post scans etc

Chris

Hello Chris,

Thank you for your reply. That booklet about the merger and celebration of the two units sounds interesting. I would be very happy if you would do a few look-ups (if the information I am looking for is in the booklet of course).

Would the exact date of merger be given in the book?

Would there be information regarding location of HQ and subunits of the battalion? And similar information related to the LRB and the Rangers as well?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Wienand

[chrrip]

Hi Wienand

The publication I referred to celebrated 100 years of both regiments; gives a potted history of each (emphasis on LRB) but contains no details of the merger. The LRB Record for 1951 contains inter alai a photo of two ORs in LRB uniform in November 1950 and you have to look at the small print to see anything about the merger. I therefore assumed it took place after January. But no. On page 23 it states the merger was announced at camp in May 1950 but the Regt was not told until July that the merger was effective from 1 may 1950.

London Rifle Brigade Rangers (RB) TA

Lt Col Jock Nangle DSO CO

Major Kay Crowther TD 2i/c

Capt Bernard Whigham Adjt

Major Wally Straight QM

RSM Tucker

HQ 24 Sun Street, Finsbury, EC 2

Hope this is what you wanted

Chris

[MBrockway]

... careful reconstruction of Corps Warrants and amendments show that Bridgeman was not entirely correct. Despite the fact that he was adjutant of the 5th Londons in the 1930s.

Wienand,

I don't have my notes to hand I'm afraid, but IIRC, Bridgeman was in fact the LRB Adjutant in the 1920s.

Chris - can you confirm the chain of adjutants and their dates of office from the Regimental Histroy?? Was Bridgeman the ex-RB adjutant you mention above as being in post in 1922?

If you remember in the earlier discussion I made the point that Bridgeman was the Adjutant when AO 49 of 1926 was issued, and that it would be surprising if the Adjutant were not familiar with the detail of an Army Order, which he was presumably largely responsible for implementing.

It now seems the evidence is definitely against him and that the LRB had been affiliated to the RB since AO 325 of October 1916. One can perhaps excuse him as his RB Chronicle article was written a decade later! And this does reinforce your point about regimental historians' statements needing to be taken with a pinch - corroboration is all!!

My perception is despite the formal affiliation to the KRRC, the LRB always had a stronger bond with The Rifle Brigade. The very first affiliation was to the RB, albeit only very briefly, and during the period of KRRC affiliation ending in 1908, more of the COs were ex-Rifle Brigade than KRRC (Was there even a single KRRC CO??).

However, the adjutants that I know about, do seem to match the formal affiliation, with attached KRRC officers predominating until 1916. Again I have only very partial info on this. Perhaps Chris could see what the Regimental History says?

I have no info at all on where the regular WO's came from.

Andy and Chris both observe that transfers from RB into the LRB are common in the Great War, but very rare from the KRRC. That seems to support my perception that the bond was stronger with the RB despite technically being in the corps of the KRRC.

I can't help feeling that these affiliations were a little artificial for the RB and KRRC anyway - they date back to the "territorialisation" of the army arising from Cardwell's 1871 Regularisation of the Forces Act. The two rifles regiments never really had the same county links as the regiments of the line. Like the guards regiments, they recuited nationally. They were mainly given the London rifle volunteer units because there were too many for the "local" county regiments (Middlesex, Royal West Kents, East, West Surreys etc) to handle.

Andy has made that point in the past.

Cheers,

Mark

[chrrip]

Mark

Agree that relationship with RB always stronger than with KRRC but link with RB more than cosmetic; shared summer camps; training with RB, courses etc etc.

1903 to 1914 LRB had 4 Adjts ; 3 RB & 1 KRRC; after Oppenheim of KRRC left in 15 followed by LRB officers until Johnston was replaced. Adjts were; Capt O B Graham DSO of the RB followed him in 22.He was followed in 25 by Capt Brierley MC also RB. Victor Paley followed in 29 also RB. Capt W R Stakey RB joined in 31; he was followed in 34 by Vic Turner who won the VC for the Snipe action at Alamein!!!; he still had strong links with the LRB post war. He was succeeded by major K C Hicks who was 1st post war CO. So 100 per cent RB; sure that all the permanent staff were as well as the COs; Pre WWI COs were mainly RB, Earl Cairns CO in 1914. pre WWI RSMs were amix of RB and KRRC. Overall though ties with RB many times stronger than with KRRC.

NB there is a superb pic of Vic Turner in a LRB Reocrd when he was Adjt; I dont know if I scanned it in

Best regards

Chris

PS there is no doubt that Henry Brierley was Adjt 1925 -29

[MBrockway]

1903 to 1914 LRB had 4 Adjts ; 3 RB & 1 KRRC; after Oppenheim of KRRC left in 15 followed by LRB officers until Johnston was replaced. Adjts were; Capt O B Graham DSO of the RB followed him in 22.He was followed in 25 by Capt Brierley MC also RB. Victor Paley followed in 29 also RB. Capt W R Stakey RB joined in 31; he was followed in 34 by Vic Turner who won the VC for the Snipe action at Alamein!!!; he still had strong links with the LRB post war. He was succeeded by major K C Hicks who was 1st post war CO. So 100 per cent RB;

PS there is no doubt that Henry Brierley was Adjt 1925 -29

Chris - no mention of Capt Bridgeman there!

Wienand/Andy - can you remember where we got the idea Bridgeman had been adjutant to the LRB?

Cheers,

Mark

[Wienand Drenth]

Hello Mark and Andy

Also apologies for not getting back sooner. I was / am buried in research related to regimental colonels of the late 17th century.

Thank you for your compliments. The most important part is that the problem related to the correct corps to which the LRB was affiliated has been solved. Andy's messages and findings show that the affiliation was not just a paper one. I don't know about the mechanisms that eventually led to the affiliation of the battalions of the London Regiment to Line Regiments. I can imagine this was related to rationalizing the instruments for providing drafts to battalions, and make it more easier to transfer men from one battalion to another. This leaves the question why the LRB did not return to the KRRC, as it was one of the KRRC's volunteer battalions before 1908. Probably this way they created a more balanced distribution of the battalions (7 for the KRRC, and 6 for the RB). Another interesting feature of is the affiliation of the London Scottish and London Irish to a Scottish and Irish regiment respectively. Also the Liverpool Scottish affiliated to a Scottish regiment. An anomaly are Liverpool Irish, which didn't affiliate to an Irish regiment.

TF Mills at BECForces wrote that Bridgeman was adjutant of the LRB in the 1920s (I was confused with the 1930s, my fault. I thought with the article published in the 1930s, Bridgeman would have been adjutant/related to the LRB in the period). I will check later tonight in an Army List of the mid 1920s and come back with the whereabouts of Bridgeman. In the London Gazette of 4 April 1924, page 2800, there is a Bridgeman becoming adjutant in the Rifle Brigade.

Hello Chris,

Thank you for your additional details. I admit I have made a thinking error several years back. Based on the number of colonels and lt colonels I deducted that there must have been three territorial battalions for the Rifle Brigade by 1959 (LRB, Ranger and City Yeomanry). But now I see I must have been wrong. It is good to be corrected!

What I was really hoping for, was an order of battle for the new battalion. I assume that prior to 1950, both the LRB and Rangers would not have had any other drill hall or outlying company except for the HQ. I would expect that after 1950 the battalion would have been divided between the two locations and it would have been nice to have more details on that one.

cheers,

Wienand

[chrrip]

Wienand

The LRB had its HQ and drill hall at Bunhill Row, EC, London until it was destroyed by German bombing - 1941 from memory. It moved to Sun Street in 1947 and this became the base of the new Regt. The Regt was transferred to the Royal Green Jackets (see M Haines ) some time later and I believe it was then based in two locations, rifle company one place, mortar team somewhere else but my knowledge very meagre about this time.

Believe also that Rangers transferred from KRRC to RB post WWII when the Regts reconstituted prior to merger

Chris

[MBrockway]

Wienand

The LRB had its HQ and drill hall at Bunhill Row, EC, London until it was destroyed by German bombing - 1941 from memory. It moved to Sun Street in 1947 and this became the base of the new Regt. The Regt was transferred to the Royal Green Jackets (see M Haines ) some time later and I believe it was then based in two locations, rifle company one place, mortar team somewhere else but my knowledge very meagre about this time.

Believe also that Rangers transferred from KRRC to RB post WWII when the Regts reconstituted prior to merger

Chris

Pals,

Mr Mills on his old regiments website had The Rangers switching their affiliation to The Rifle Brigade on 1st April 1947, with HQ at Finsbury and all companies at Tottenham (which I think may be an error for Tottenham Court Road in Central London as The Rangers drilled at Chenies Street just off Tottenham Court Road and where their Memorial is to this day).

I assume Finsbury signifies Sun Street, which is in Finsbury and was already the new HQ for the LRB, as Chris points out.

Mr Mills dates the LRB/Rangers merger to 1st May 1960.

As regards the orbat/lineage after the merger, I've put all this together from Mr Mills's material:

London Rifle Brigade / Rangers

1950 May 01

London Rifle Brigade / Rangers, The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own) formed with HQ at Finsbury, by amalgamation of London Rifle Brigade, and The Rangers:

A – D Companies, locations unknown

1966

Redesignated 3rd Green Jackets, The Rifle Brigade (London Rifle Brigade/Rangers), The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own)

1967 April 01

disbanded and concurrently reconstituted as two units:

C Company (London Rifle Brigade Rangers) in 4th (V) Battalion, The Royal Green Jackets in TAVR II (see 4^th (V) RGJ below) at Finsbury, London

B Company (London Rifle Brigade Rangers) in 5th (T) Battalion, The Royal Green Jackets in TAVR III (see 5^th (T) RGJ below) at West Ham

1975 April 01

B Coy of 5^th (T) RGJ disbanded after being reduced to cadre in 1969, leaving only C Coy of 4^th (V) RGJ

1986 Dec 01

companies expanded to make 4th (V) Bn, Royal Green Jackets an all-London unit and C Coy omitted London Rifle Brigade Rangers title

1999 Jul 01

G (Royal Green Jackets) Company, The London Regiment (see below) formed at West Ham upon disbandment of 4th (V) Bn, Royal Green Jackets by redesignation of its A Coy

2006.04.01 G Company, The Royal Rifle Volunteers

2007.02.01 G Company, 7th Battalion, The Rifles

4^th (V) RGJ

1967 Apr 01

4th (Volunteer) Battalion, The Royal Green Jackets

formed in TAVR II with HQ at Davies Street, London with companies as successors to T.A. battalions of the Green Jackets Brigade:

HQ Company at Davies Street, London, formed from Queen's Royal Rifles

A (Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire) Company at Oxford, successor to The Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry

B (Queen's Royal Rifles) Company at Fulham, London, successor to Queen's Royal Rifles

C (London Rifle Brigade Rangers) Company at Finsbury, London, successor to 3rd Green Jackets, The Rifle Brigade (London Rifle Brigade/ Rangers)

1969 Dec 15

D Company formed at Aylesbury from personnel The Buckinghamshire Regt RA

1975 Apr 01

absorbed B Battery (Greater London RA) at Hackney from 6th (V) Bn, The Queen's Regt

1986 Dec 01

transferred as HQ Company and D Company 5th Battalion, leaving 4th Battalion as a London-only unit (successor to Queen's Royal Rifles and London Rifle Brigade Rangers):

HQ Company at Davies Street, London

B (QRR) Company at Fulham, London

C (LRB/Rangers) Company at Finsbury, London

F Company at Mile End Road, London, newly raised

G Company at West Ham, London, newly raised (Mark: from former 5^th (T) RGJ elements???)

1988

H (Home Service Force) Company formed at Davies Street

1992 Jul.25

reorganised into three rifle company establishment and H (HSF) Coy disbanded:

HQ Company at Davies Street, London

A Company at West Ham, redesignation of G Coy

B (QRR) Company at Fulham, London

C (LRB/Rangers) Company at Finsbury, London

Support Company at Mile End Road, reorganisation of F Coy

1999 Jul 01

4^th Battalion disbanded …

A Coy redesignated as G (Royal Green Jackets) Company, The London Regiment (see below);

B Coy, HQ Coy and Support Coy amalgamated to form F (Royal Green Jackets) Company, The London Regiment (see below)

Fate of C Coy unclear.

5^th (T) RGJ

1967 April.01

5th (Territorial) Battalion, The Royal Green Jackets formed in TAVR III with HQ in London, with companies as successors to T.A. battalions:

A Company (Queen's Royal Rifles) in London, successor to Queen's Royal Rifles

B Company (London Rifle Brigade Rangers) at West Ham, successor to 3rd Green Jackets, The Rifle Brigade (London Rifle Brigade/ Rangers, The Rifle Brigade)

1969 Jan 01

The Royal Green Jackets London reduced to cadre HQ at Duke of York's HQ, Chelsea, sponsored by 4th (V) Bn, The Royal Green Jackets

1975 Apr.01

cadre disbanded

(Mark: however G Coy, 4^th (V) RGJ was later raised in West Ham possibly from LRB/Rangers elements???)

The London Regiment

1999 Jul 01

absorbed 4^th(V) Bn, The Royal Green Jackets forming two more companies:

F (Royal Green Jackets) Company at Fulham, London and Davies Street, London, including Mortar Pln, - amalgamation of B Coy and HQ Coy, 4th Bn, The Royal Green Jackets [successor to 9th Londons (QVR) and 16th Londons (QWR/Civil Service Rifles)]

G (Royal Green Jackets) Company at West Ham, London, including Recce Pln, redesignation of A Coy, 4th Bn, The Royal Green Jackets [successor to 5th Londons (LRB) and 12th Londons (Rangers)]

Also:

GPMG Pln moved to Catford, London under OPCOM A Coy;

C Coy consolidated at Balham;

D Coy moved to Camberwell with Rifle Pln at Chelsea

2006 Apr 08

F Coy and G Coy, The London Regiment, transferred to The Royal Rifle Volunteers (see below)

The Royal Rifle Volunteers

2006 Apr 01

coys reorganised:

HQ Company at Brock Barracks, Reading, amalgamation of HQ Coy and B Coy

A Company at Oxford

E Company at Milton Keynes (High Wycombe pln disbanded)

F Company at Davies Street, London, transferred from The London Regt

G Company at West Ham, London, transferred from The London Regt

2007 Feb

Redesignated as 7th Battalion, The Rifles

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I think TFMills's primary source for all this is Frederick, which as we have seen contains minor errors, so we would be wise to get corroboration before relying on this. There are also some minor inconsistencies which I've been unable to resolve so far.

Hope you find that interesting/useful even though it is a little beyond the scope of the Forum.

Cheers,

Mark

[Wienand Drenth]

Chris,

Thanks for your additional pieces of information! That helps to fill in missing pieces.

Hello Mark,

Thank you for your extensive reply. You may find it of interest I contributed a lot to the lineages of the Territorial Army units at regiments.org (at the top of a battalion's page you will find the contributors). You are correct that Frederick was my/our most important source of information, and he is not in all cases very detailed concerning HQ and subunit locations. For the period between 1980 and 2000 mr Mills and I have relied a lot on the internet and on correspondence with various regiments to obtain little bits and pieces of lineage. So yes, there will be lot of errors and open questions in the information we compiled so far. Luckily, with people like you on this forum specialised in a particular regiments or corps, all those little bits and pieces can be corrected and filled in (thank you!!)! It is an ongoing process as you will understand. (You will find the notes you compiled from mr Mills' site also in the notes I forwarded you some time ago.)

So, if we summarize the 1947 situation, we have the London Rifle Brigade at Sun Street, Finsbury (HQ was at Bunhill Row before, which was bombed in the war) (as an aside, wasn't Sun Street home of the 7th Londons earlier?) and the Rangers at Chenies Street in Holborn. That latter transferred in 1947 from the KRRC to the RB giving both regiments two TA battalions. In 1950 the LRB and Rangers merge, with new HQ at Sun Street and companies at different places (needs to be sorted out someday).

In 1967 the battalion reduces to two companies in the TAVR: one in the TAVR II and one in the TAVR III.

Question for you Mark (with your knowledge of London area): would West Ham be a logical location for the LRB/Rangers to have a drill hall? The TAVR III element disbands in 1975.

I am not sure it you can connect the 1986 company at West Ham to the TAVR III company at the same location (in the sense on continuation of lineage). No doubt that location was re-used since it was vacant, and filled an empty spot in the recruiting area. (In the second half of the 1980's the TA saw a modest increase in numbers, with all rifle battalions growing to four rifle companies.) I doubt whether in 1986 anybody serving in the TAVR III company between 1967 - 69 would be around to raise a new company. Also, I do not know if the battalion, or part of it, considered itself as LRB / Rangers or QRR, and had grown fully into the Royal Green Jackets family. (All I mean to say is that with 20 years the distiction, apart from history of course!!, between LRB/Rangers and QRR on a company level may have vanished in lieu of a RGJ identity) So, apart from the re-use of a former drill hall, my best guess it that the new company considered itself more RGJ than LRB/Rangers.

As for the other company formed in the 1980, F Coy at Mile End Road, where would that location be linked to? (I seem to recall Mile End Road, but cannot tell unfortunately)

Looking forward what you make out of it.

Clearly I have no trouble discussing all this, lineage is just something so fascinating , though it is outside of the scope of this forum. (I hope the moderator will tolerate, otherwise we should discuss it off-forum.)

best regards,

Wienand

[chrrip]

Hi again

Very informative Mark and Wienand. Have you contacted the LRB Vets Assoc? They still use Davies St for dinners etc. There are two joint secs; one of them a former Sgt in D Company from the pre RGJ era. I was sent some copies of their journal some while back and the focus seemed to be on WWII ie 7 & 8 RB. I also get the impression that whatever the designation the units were very much LRB - and still is

Chris