Bitsa Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 Can anyone help identify the regiment to which these men belonged? I'm afraid the photo is very hazy and only cap badges are visible. It has been suggested that they were in the KRRC because of their black buttons and it is possible that one of these men was Frank Ingram Gillson who died in 1917 whilst serving in Flanders with the KRRC. I wondered if the cap badge could be that of the London Regiment which might make sense if, as I believe, these men were brothers who all lived in Leyton, east London before the war. Someone else has also suggested that it is in fact a pre-war photo and that the men were territorials. So, at the moment it is all as clear as mud. Anymore suggestions? Bitsa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 One of the London TF Units Affiliated to the KRRC,large enough to be King's Westminster Rifles{16th London?}if smaller The 9th battalion , or even The Finsbury Rifles could be contenders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitsa Posted 9 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2009 Sorry Harry but my ignorance is rearing it's ugly head here. Is a TF unit the territorials? I find it all very confusing I'm afraid. Bitsa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 Sorry yes TF refers to Territorial Force by which the Terriers were referred to from 1908 until 1920,when they became the Territorial Army To confuse you further The London Regiments were a bit of a law unto themselves & if I recall correctly were not classified as TF units though they operated as such & earned the TF Efficiency Medals etc in the same way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitsa Posted 9 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2009 Thanks for explaining that, I'm learning slowly but they certainly didn't make it very easy. Bitsa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 Small correction: it was Queen's Westminster Rifles, not King's. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 And it was Queen Victoria's Rifles (9th London): the 16th came from Westminster (hence the title), whereas the 9th came from W1, which is nothing to do with Victoria. Probably designed to confuse the Hun Incidentally, for lack of any better ideas, does your photo show any detail on the shoulder titles? If they were territorials, they'd possibly have very identifiable shoulder titles; if KRRC, then the titles would be quite small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 Small correction: it was Queen's Westminster Rifles, not King's. Carry on. Sur I bow to your superior knowledge,my mistake,Queens of course,Im tired! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 It isn't a pre-war photo as the men are wearing 1914 Pattern leather belts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 Not necessarily, as the Rifle Regiments have always used snake hook belts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 Not the pattern of belt worn in that photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitsa Posted 10 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 10 August , 2009 Now, now lads, no squabbling. Thank you all for your contributions, all very much appreciated. I don't know about confusing the Hun Steven, they've done a pretty good job of confusing me. I have tried to enlarge the area around the shoulder but to no avail although I would say from what I could make out that the chap sitting on the right of the photo appears to have a fairly small insignia on his epaulette. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 10 August , 2009 Share Posted 10 August , 2009 No-one has mentioned the 6th London who's badge was the same size as the KRRC. I don't think they're the 11th, theirs was smaller or the 16th who's badge had a distictive centre. They're either 6th or 9th London or KRRC regulars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitsa Posted 11 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 11 August , 2009 Thanks for that, if they are all KRRC regulars that scuppers my theory (and my hope) that they might be brothers. I know that one of my great uncles was definately in the KRRC and I am sure that he is in this photo (not sure which one) but one of his brothers was definately in the Essex Regiment, not the KRRC during WWI. Oh well, qui patitur vincit - which I belive roughly translates as he who endures conquers and I don't want any lessons from latin scholars if it doesn't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 13 August , 2009 Share Posted 13 August , 2009 Sorry Pals - missed this while I was in Scotland! We already seem to have narrowed it down to the correct rifles maltese cross "usual suspects" - LOL! Here's a side-by-side comparison (not all these badges are correct vintage or even genuine, but they'll do to show the features to look for) ... KRRC Regulars..............6th Londons...................9 Londons (QVRs)..........11 LR (Finsbury Rifles)..16 Londons (QWRs) KRRC Regulars only version with lots of battle honours written into the cross arms 6th Londons (City of London Rifles) Motto: Domine dirige nos (=motto of the City of London, as it's one of the City of London btns) Cross Arms: South Africa 1900-02 battle honour in top cross arm, rest blank Circlet: 6th Battn City of London Regt Central Boss: strung LI bugle 9th Londons (Queen Victoria's Rifles) Motto: South Africa 1900-02 battle honour Cross Arms: all blank Circlet: Queen Victoria's Central Boss: St George and the dragon 11th LR (Finsbury Rifles) Motto: South Africa 1900-02 battle honour Cross Arms: Pro aris et focis ('For hearth & home' - motto of the Rifle Volunteer movement), one word per cross arm. Circlet: Finsbury Rifles Central Boss: strung LI bugle 16th Londons (Queen's Westminster Rifles) Motto: South Africa 1900-02 battle honour Cross Arms: all blank Circlet: 16th County of London - Queen's Westminsters Central Boss: portcullis, and boss somewhat larger than the other badges Added to these are various KRRC militia battalions, which had blank cross arms, but I think we can rule these out for the date suggested by the 1914 pattern belt. Worth mentioning too are ... KRRC 1st Cadet Battalion [not shown above] (the KRRC's original historic cadet unit, based in London) Motto: Celer et audax ('Swift and bold' - the KRRC regimental motto) Cross Arms: South Africa 1900 1902 battle honour, one word per cross arm (the KRRC Cadets are the only cadet unit to have a battle honour). Circlet: 1st C.B. King's Royal Rifles Central Boss: strung LI bugle These chaps look like serving soldier, not cadets, to me though. Church Lads Brigade Cadets [not shown above] (affiliated to the KRRC, performed Home Defence duties) Motto: Fight the Good Fight (the CLB motto) Cross Arms: CLB Cadets, in top and bottom cross arms, others blank Circlet: The King's Royal Rifles Corps Central Boss: strung LI bugle The CLB Cadets generally wore a cloth shoulder patch detailing their CLB unit name, and of course were much younger! We can rule out the CLB Cadets here. Incidentally there is a common misconception that the same CLB Cadets badge was worn by the 16th (Service) Battalion (Church Lads Brigade) KRRC (a 'Pals' battalion originally formed from former CLB members) - this is incorrect: 16/KRRC wore the standard KRRC badge. There's also the Rangers, which is similar but has a scroll below the maltese cross. I have seen examples (dubious ones) with no scroll, so I include it here for info! 12th Londons (The Rangers) [not shown above] Motto: Excel Cross Arms: South Africa 1900-02 battle honour in top cross arm, rest blank Circlet: 12th Battn County of London Regt Central Boss: strung LI bugle Scroll: The Rangers (below cross) Here also is a "wild card" thrown in for interest - highly unlikely for these three and anyway I think the central boss is too big for our photo ... OBLI Bucks Btn (TF) These badges were generally backed by a piece of scarlet felt - as per the QVR image above - and would usually have been blackened. Unfortunately our photo here is too poor to be able to see many of these features! Perhaps armed with all this detail Bitsa, you could take a magnifying glass to the original photo and see if you can pick out more than we can see here. My "gut feel" is that they are all in KRRC regular battalions for what it's worth! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitsa Posted 13 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 13 August , 2009 Crikey Mark, so much information, thanks very much for all that. Unfortunately I do not have the original photo in my possession. One of the men in the photo is my great Uncle and the photo was emailed to me by my cousin, his granddaughter. I don't know if she has the original but I will contact her and see if we can find more detail of the cap badge. Tricia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitsa Posted 13 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 13 August , 2009 I meant to say in my last post that I have just found out that my great uncle who is in this photo, was in the 12th Battalion KRRC when he was killed on 16th August, 1917 at the Battle of Langemark. I don't know if this makes any difference to identification. Bitsa/Trish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 13 August , 2009 Share Posted 13 August , 2009 I meant to say in my last post that I have just found out that my great uncle who is in this photo, was in the 12th Battalion KRRC when he was killed on 16th August, 1917 at the Battle of Langemark. I don't know if this makes any difference to identification. Bitsa/Trish. Trish, My own grandfather was also in 12/KRRC though at some point he was transferred to 16/KRRC. He was certainly at Passchendaele, though I cannot yet confirm with which of the two battalions. Langemark was a very significant Action for 12/KRRC as it was where Sgt Edward Cooper won his Victoria Cross. If the men in your photo are all KRRC regulars, then ask your relative with the photo to take a very close look at the cross arms of the maltese cross for the full KRRC battle honours. Welcome to the Rifles Family here on the Forum by the way Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitsa Posted 18 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 August , 2009 Hi Mark, I found out that my cousin does have the original of this photo so I got her to have a good look at the cap badges with her magnifying glass. She then found a good photo from the internet, of what she thought she was looking at and comparing them to the photo's you put on your post, it looks as if .... .....dah! dah! .... they are KRRC regulars. So sadly my hope that it was my three great uncles has been dashed but at least now I know something definate about them. Thanks to everybody for their contributions I certainly now know a lot more about the rifle regiments than I ever thought I would and hope in the future to be able to do a bit more research about my great uncle's time in 12/KRRC. Trish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 21 November , 2013 Share Posted 21 November , 2013 Definitive info on the various Church Lads Brigade badges (not 16/KRRC) has been pulled together by Pal @conijoni in this excellent topic: Church Lads Brigade (CLB) badgesAlso the CLB Historical Group's informative Looking Back pamphlet has relocated to here:http://www.clcgb.org.uk/documents/doc_download/55-looking-backCheers,Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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