dutchbarge Posted 13 January , 2010 Share Posted 13 January , 2010 And how often does e bay have good uns come up? TT In years past quite a few cuff rank OSD tunics popped up on eBay(uk). I was very fortunate to acquire the osd tunics of Capt Gledstanes 1/Bed, Lt.Col.(temp)Troyte-Bullock,DSO 7/SLI, Lt.C.W.Laing 2/Buffs, Capt (temp.) Morrison, MC RE as well as several others on eBay. All in good nick and complete for knock down prices. At least cheaper than those I bought from dealers at the time. I suppose I'm lucky in that I only collect officer kit as here is probably more demand for EM/NCO kit. Sadly much (if not most) of the officer kit on eBay is post WW1 that has been messed about with to look WW1. That it was overwhelmingly bespoke gear makes things a bit harder as there was a far wider range of materials and cut than for EM/NCOs. Unless you know which regiments had their officers in 'wind up' tunics (and when), which wore twill and which wore barrathea (and when) it is easy to be duped into believing a WW2 OSD tunic (after the addition of the correct WW1 dogs, buttons and ribbons) to be a late war OSD 'wind up'. Invariably these tunics are missing tailor's labels which help you to authenticate the piece (postal codes of the tailor's address as well as regimental preference for certain tailors offer clues). And the eBayer listing the item usually has some lame excuse such as "don't know much about these tunics....came from my grandfather (or father's collection)....look at the pictures, etc." Same with OSD caps. Most are post WW1 which have been re-badged and re chinstrapped (a newly made proper style cs (much narrower than WW2) is available from any leather fitter and after an application of EasyOff oven cleaner hard to tell from the real thing!). But if look beyond the badge, chinstrap (and cs buttons), focus on the material and liner and you are aware of the construction differences you can usually suss out the dodgey ones. Unfortunately there are almost no legimate ones now for sale with which to compare the phoney ones! That said, I'm back to eBay to see what's there........you never know!! Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreatwar4 Posted 14 January , 2010 Share Posted 14 January , 2010 I am looking to buy another original WW1 tunic. I have not brought one for a while so what price are they now fetching ? I have £500-£600 set aside for one. Is that reasonable or are they going for morre ? JG Does an original WW1 1914-1916 Royal MGC officer tunic with a unique tank patch strike your fancy? (sold as the uniform and field service pocket book with the officer's signature) I may offer it, please send me a message with your contact info and I'll send you digital images. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreatwar4 Posted 14 January , 2010 Share Posted 14 January , 2010 I am looking to buy another original WW1 tunic. I have not brought one for a while so what price are they now fetching ? I have £500-£600 set aside for one. Is that reasonable or are they going for morre ? JG Here is a WW1 tunic, worth a look: http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?ref=v...ing_id=38220703 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 15 January , 2010 Share Posted 15 January , 2010 Here is a WW1 tunic, worth a look: http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?ref=v...ing_id=38220703 The name provided by the seller, Robert Kay, is not one I could find associated with the MGC. Nor MC. That said, I've never had complete success looking up anyone in the Army Lists or online Gazette. I can't remember how many tunic I've come across with no provenance other than a signed note found in the pocket, or a piece of named kit that came with the tunic. 9 times out of 10 they are red herrings. THe orginal collar dogs were definately NOT MGC. THe stitching of the tailor's label to the tunic lining looks like it was done by a saddle maker (not up to fancy sewing standards one would expect on a bespoke tunic). I'm not an expert on Tank Corps cloth badges, but the one in the fotos of this tunic does not fit any description I'm familiar with. Given all of this, just gleaned from grainy internet fotos, my suspicions of a re-buttoning/badging are rising. However a cuff rank, even without a pedigree, is still a cuff rank! Cheers, BIll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 15 January , 2010 Share Posted 15 January , 2010 I'm not an expert on Tank Corps cloth badges, but the one in the fotos of this tunic does not fit any description I'm familiar with. Cloth badges depicting the tank in a more 3-dimensional form are pretty common during the Great War, before the straight-on side view become universal - I hope Taff doesn't mind me showing this picture he's posted before of a similar badge on an undoubtably original tunic: http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TslCBaJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 15 January , 2010 Share Posted 15 January , 2010 The name provided by the seller, Robert Kay, is not one I could find associated with the MGC. Nor MC. A possible candidate? http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1 Description Medal card of Kay, Robert B Corps Regiment No Rank Army Service Corps M2/051315 Private Tank Corps Second Lieutenant Date 1914-1920 Catalogue reference WO 372/11 Dept Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies Series War Office: Service Medal and Award Rolls Index, First World War Piece Jobling J - Langley P Image contains 1 medal card of many for this collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 16 January , 2010 Share Posted 16 January , 2010 A possible candidate? http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1 Description Medal card of Kay, Robert B Corps Regiment No Rank Army Service Corps M2/051315 Private Tank Corps Second Lieutenant Date 1914-1920 Catalogue reference WO 372/11 Dept Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies Series War Office: Service Medal and Award Rolls Index, First World War Piece Jobling J - Langley P Image contains 1 medal card of many for this collection Thanks for this information as well as the Tank Corps cloth badge info. Re: Tank Corps cloth badge, I was vaguely aware that there was an earlier version with a dimensional view. The badge on the tunic for sale is graphically similar but of different colors. Might be an earlier/later version? Re: Your Robert B Kay. I just found him on the online Gazette, 25 Feb 1919 and he DID win a Military Cross. He was listed under Tank Corps (Engineering), R.B.Kay, MC, acting Lt. Couldn't find his gazette for MC, his original commission or anything else. So the rank matches the tunic and the MC ribbon as well. The seller has told me that the name on the tailor's label looks like it starts with an R and ends with a Y, (all else in indecipherable). My experience is that normally the tailor's labels usually start with a rank, not a first initial. The 'ghosts' on the lapels might well have been to the ASC, but why the MGC buttons? An interesting mystery! Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 16 January , 2010 Share Posted 16 January , 2010 It was not uncommon for officers who transferred to the MGC to keep either their regimental buttons or collars. That's probably what happened here, assuming of course that the buttons are correct to the jacket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 17 January , 2010 Share Posted 17 January , 2010 It was not uncommon for officers who transferred to the MGC to keep either their regimental buttons or collars. That's probably what happened here, assuming of course that the buttons are correct to the jacket. W, Kay was commissioned into the TC so I would have been expecting TC buttons. There is no mention (that I am aware of) of him having been in the MGC. Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 17 January , 2010 Share Posted 17 January , 2010 W, Kay was commissioned into the ASC so I would have been expecting ASC buttons. There is no mention (that I am aware of) of him having been in the MGC. Cheers, Bill As the Tank Corps was formed from the MGC "Heavies", it's common to see MGC buttons and badges on tunics even after the introduction of Tank Corps specific badges and buttons. Kay ended up in the Tank Corps, hence wearing the MGC buttons makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 17 January , 2010 Share Posted 17 January , 2010 Thanks for this information as well as the Tank Corps cloth badge info. Re: Tank Corps cloth badge, I was vaguely aware that there was an earlier version with a dimensional view. The badge on the tunic for sale is graphically similar but of different colors. Might be an earlier/later version? As with all things private purchase, small variations to suit pocket and taste are common. To me, everything seems to tie in very nicely on this tunic and looks right, and seems a very fair price for a "cuffie" with such badging and pedigree if it is all correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 17 January , 2010 Share Posted 17 January , 2010 As with all things private purchase, small variations to suit pocket and taste are common. To me, everything seems to tie in very nicely on this tunic and looks right, and seems a very fair price for a "cuffie" with such badging and pedigree if it is all correct. The seller PM'd me close ups of the lapels and tailor's label. There are definitely two different sets of collar dog holes on the lapels (not 4 holes for MGC badges) which indicate it has been twice badged. Not uncommon for OSD. He could have bought a used tunic when he was commissioned. However, neither sets of holes nor collar dog 'ghosts' on the lapels correspond to either Tank Corps or MGC dogs. As he was commissioned into the Tank Corps I'd have expected that collar dog, or possibly, as you say, a MGC badge (to match the extent buttons of the HMGC, precursor of the Tank Corps). As neither is the case I must ask myself why this wasn't so. The only evidence of the tunic having belonged to R.B.Kay is a Field Notebook with his name written in it. The close ups of the tailor's label don't reveal anything conculsive. His name is nowhere else on the tunic or trousers. The seller certainly seems in earnest. However, PM'ing me to ask whether or not Lance Corporals wore this type of uniform indicates he is not a specialist in these matters. Somewhere along the line it is entirely possible that a cloth Tank Corp badge was sew onto a sleeve, MGC buttons were added, collar dogs removed and with the provenance of a name written in a Field Notebook, Hey Presto!, a Tank Corps tunic was created. Sorry to sound cynical but I've been to the rodeo before. Of course I could be wrong, but for my money I don't want a tunic that needs to be over explained. Cheers, BIll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 17 January , 2010 Share Posted 17 January , 2010 Hi, looking through a book i see tunics without any badges in the majority.... Would a dressed dummy with no badges be OK? And... are Canadian Tunics worth less than the British ones? Thanks Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 17 January , 2010 Share Posted 17 January , 2010 Hi, And... are Canadian Tunics worth less than the British ones? Thanks Chris Hello Chris, Don't let Tony Schnurr hear you asking that! The Canadian tunics on his website Kaisersbunker.com are some of the nicest OSD tunics/doublets I've seen. Seriously, demand vs availability drives prices. All things being equal (condition, history of unit, battle flashes, etc.) a Canadian (or Austrailian or NZ) OSD tunic will often sell for a bit more as there are less of them and the people who specialize in them are very keen on getting them when they appear. At this moment in time there are several British tunics/jackets on the market and no Canadian, Anzac ones I know of. Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 17 January , 2010 Share Posted 17 January , 2010 Hi, looking through a book i see tunics without any badges in the majority.... Would a dressed dummy with no badges be OK? Thanks Chris Hello Chris, In theory, upon entering the lines, collar (and cap) badges might have been removed. I've seen period fotos showing both badged and uubadged officers. So if you were setting up a combat mannequin, leave them off if you please. Personally, regardless of period conditions, I think an unbadged OSD tunis looks less interesting. But that's just my opinion. Cheers, BIll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 18 January , 2010 Share Posted 18 January , 2010 Has anyone inspected the military antiques one? Thanks Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 9 February , 2010 Share Posted 9 February , 2010 Most good dealers will allow a check period and refund within a timescale...including Military Antiques. Funny observation but I still think £800 is the minimum you will pay but my price estimate for a cap is under what others think? Regional diferences? And how often does e bay have good uns come up? TT Here is a very late war Hants Regt. tunic at a price that seems to bear out the above observation: http://www.waterloomilitaria.com/shopexd.asp?id=115 It looks as if the dealing fraternity are trying out a new price for SD jackets. It works like this: a dealer puts something out at a high price, to a general sharp intake of breath, it hangs around for quite a while, then one or two other dealers tentatively do the same. Then one of them sells, then another. From then on, that's "the price". It will be interesting to see whether this one and/or the one at Military Antiques sells. W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 9 February , 2010 Share Posted 9 February , 2010 That's how it works, Wainfleet... Once upon a time, I went to a militaria fair and one dealer, sharp intake of breath, had broken the £100 barrier for 1914 trios. Much tutting and invective from other dealers - but as you circulated, the number of dealers who had scribbled out their lower prices like a tidal wave. There is a 'well known' auction house (a live one, not an online one) which seems to pluck its valuations out of the air - and people pay it... 'well, that must be the price' say other dealers. Which is how a £6 badge on Monday is a £15 badge by Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreatwar4 Posted 10 February , 2010 Share Posted 10 February , 2010 Thanks for this information as well as the Tank Corps cloth badge info. Re: Tank Corps cloth badge, I was vaguely aware that there was an earlier version with a dimensional view. The badge on the tunic for sale is graphically similar but of different colors. Might be an earlier/later version? Re: Your Robert B Kay. I just found him on the online Gazette, 25 Feb 1919 and he DID win a Military Cross. He was listed under Tank Corps (Engineering), R.B.Kay, MC, acting Lt. Couldn't find his gazette for MC, his original commission or anything else. So the rank matches the tunic and the MC ribbon as well. The seller has told me that the name on the tailor's label looks like it starts with an R and ends with a Y, (all else in indecipherable). My experience is that normally the tailor's labels usually start with a rank, not a first initial. The 'ghosts' on the lapels might well have been to the ASC, but why the MGC buttons? An interesting mystery! Cheers, Bill Bill, I'm glad you found some interesting information on this tunic. I can add that Robert Kay was an engineer by schooling/training. He was employed on the Island of Kauai, Hawaii (a territory at that time) at the McBryde Sugar Plantation. I have several of his McBryde sugar plantation engineering texts and a notebook (all signed). He returned to the UK out of obligation to serve in the Army during WW1. His wife's address was 142 Nethergate, Dundee. I have seen MGC lapel badges with a single vertical attachment spike that would correspond to the two vertically orientated holes and then the two horizontal holes correspond to the TC badges. Your comments/thoughts? tgw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreatwar4 Posted 10 February , 2010 Share Posted 10 February , 2010 The seller PM'd me close ups of the lapels and tailor's label. There are definitely two different sets of collar dog holes on the lapels (not 4 holes for MGC badges) which indicate it has been twice badged. Not uncommon for OSD. He could have bought a used tunic when he was commissioned. However, neither sets of holes nor collar dog 'ghosts' on the lapels correspond to either Tank Corps or MGC dogs. As he was commissioned into the Tank Corps I'd have expected that collar dog, or possibly, as you say, a MGC badge (to match the extent buttons of the HMGC, precursor of the Tank Corps). As neither is the case I must ask myself why this wasn't so. The only evidence of the tunic having belonged to R.B.Kay is a Field Notebook with his name written in it. The close ups of the tailor's label don't reveal anything conculsive. His name is nowhere else on the tunic or trousers. The seller certainly seems in earnest. However, PM'ing me to ask whether or not Lance Corporals wore this type of uniform indicates he is not a specialist in these matters. Somewhere along the line it is entirely possible that a cloth Tank Corp badge was sew onto a sleeve, MGC buttons were added, collar dogs removed and with the provenance of a name written in a Field Notebook, Hey Presto!, a Tank Corps tunic was created. Sorry to sound cynical but I've been to the rodeo before. Of course I could be wrong, but for my money I don't want a tunic that needs to be over explained. Cheers, BIll An interesting and thorough read on the MGC/HC/TC: http://www.machinegun.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk...001.01.2007.pdf Interestingly enough a "Coy" in the MGC lingo described a Company/squadron. The field service pocket book of Robert Kay indicated he was in the "A Coy, 25 ltuh, 2 room". The "ltuh" spelling is difficult to interpret and not clear and maybe something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreatwar4 Posted 10 February , 2010 Share Posted 10 February , 2010 Bill, I'm glad you found some interesting information on this tunic. I can add that Robert Kay was an engineer by schooling/training. He was employed on the Island of Kauai, Hawaii (a territory at that time) at the McBryde Sugar Plantation. I have several of his McBryde sugar plantation engineering texts and a notebook (all signed). He returned to the UK out of obligation to serve in the Army during WW1. His wife's address was 142 Nethergate, Dundee. I have seen MGC lapel badges with a single vertical attachment spike that would correspond to the two vertically orientated holes and then the two horizontal holes correspond to the TC badges. Your comments/thoughts? tgw After looking around at many MGC, TC lapel badges it is challenging to come to any definitive conclusions as I am not an expert. All I can say is that the two holes in vertical arrangement each resemble a horizontal slit. The two holes in horizontal arrangement are true circular punch holes. And the sillohuette on the lapel material caused by the presence of a lapel badge indicates that the badge was circular in shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 10 February , 2010 Share Posted 10 February , 2010 Here is a very late war Hants Regt. tunic at a price that seems to bear out the above observation: http://www.waterloomilitaria.com/shopexd.asp?id=115 It looks as if the dealing fraternity are trying out a new price for SD jackets. It works like this: a dealer puts something out at a high price, to a general sharp intake of breath, it hangs around for quite a while, then one or two other dealers tentatively do the same. Then one of them sells, then another. From then on, that's "the price". It will be interesting to see whether this one and/or the one at Military Antiques sells. W. OK SD, but an eye-watering price for a very undistinguished item. Let's hope neither this nor the MA Sussex sells anytime soon for, as you say, this will set the blinking price and put them beyond the reach of many collectors...not to mention extinguishing any hope of kitting them out with 08 etc. Best wishes, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 10 February , 2010 Share Posted 10 February , 2010 An interesting and thorough read on the MGC/HC/TC: http://www.machinegun.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk...001.01.2007.pdf Interestingly enough a "Coy" in the MGC lingo described a Company/squadron. The field service pocket book of Robert Kay indicated he was in the "A Coy, 25 ltuh, 2 room". The "ltuh" spelling is difficult to interpret and not clear and maybe something else. "Hut"? As in A Company, Hut number 25, Room number 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 10 February , 2010 Share Posted 10 February , 2010 The Fallen Eagle linked to Military Antiques (son) has a Angus VTC tunic (082 pattern) at £885! Other than ANGUS emboidered title nothing else insignia wise. Not even a front line regt / unit. I will confess I paid £800 for my RAMC tunic some three years ago. It is a nice original tunic, overseas stripes, metal RAMC s/t original medics badges, sgt stripes and clearly heavy service wear though no moth and no tears. Nap of cloth gone, additional wear at elbows, collar etc and ingrained dirt and stains though not disfigured in anyway. I wanted a RAMC tunic desperately and this fitted the bill. Came from a private collection and I simply had to have it. I was given first refusal and purchased it and it remained on display at a fair for the remainder of the day and so many people offered cash for it. It is the price Im afraid! One thing though...all godd tunics never seem to make the fairs as the deal is done long before it is put on display / offered to the public. This was the case with the RAMC tunic! You pays your money and takes your choice!!! Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 10 February , 2010 Share Posted 10 February , 2010 You may have spoken too soon re the MA Sussex tunic. No longer on website or ebay...sold or withdrawn for a period to resurface at a new price? TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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