tjpatti Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 From this week's Croydon Guardian (would have liked to post a link but for some reason this article is not on their website): "Today the Croydon Guardian launches a campaign to have the borough's forgotten soldiers honoured for their sacrifices during WW1. Instead of being remembered for their heroism, the bodies of 26 soldiers who died whilst being treated at Cane Hill lunatic asylum in Coulsdon lie hidden in an unknown grave. The names of these brave men, who fought for their country and died as a result of the war, do not appear on any official or state memorial. Historian Adrian Falks, who uncovered the scandal, is calling for the soldiers' names to be included on the national Debt of Honour. Mr Falks fears their names were deliberately excluded from the Debt of Honour because they were asylum patients. He said 'The names of these soldiers have been utterly obliterated. They have been wiped out as if they never existed.' A spokesman from the CWGC told the Croydon Guardian there was no official policy to omit the soldiers in asylums from the Debt of Honour. He said 'The Commonwealth War Graves Commissionis currently investigating this case and will attempt to discover what happened'. Mr Falks said 'It is chastening to think that unlike the other 1.7 million British war dead, whose memory is honoured by the church and state every Armistice Day, the names of these men have not been remembered or commemorated since they were interred over 80 years ago'. Do you know any of the forgotten soldiers? Contact newsdesk@croydonguardian.co.uk Robert Thomas Robert John Gibbons Ralph Henry Hutcheson Richard Leonard Skinner John George Groombridge William Edgar Agar Charles William F. Fray (32) William Penny (27) Alfred Cartwright (36) Samuel Davis (37) Leonard Dobson (24) George John Lammie [Royal Artillery] John Bugden Albert Chapman John Benjamin Delan/Delon [possibly Dielon - RDC 13th Battalion?] Burt Harvey George Charles Laurence Alexander John McKenzie William Penny Paul Frant Walter William Sutton George Robert Tullick [Welsh Regiment Depot?] Samuel Schoolenart (30) Albert Henry Wilson (26) Nelson Giles (31) James Charmont [Royal Navy] regards Teresa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 Teresa thank you for posting this topic. At first reading this seems to be a very sad oversight. I presume that the men died between 1914 and the cut-off date for CWGC recognition of 1921. If they did then it will be important that they are commemorated properly and that “their names be not blotted out”. Please keep us informed with any progress and news. Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 "over 80 years ago'" Does that mean that these men lived until the mid/late 1920s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 Samuel Schoolenart's ' pension record ' survives. Maybe somebody can read it better than I can. It's very difficult, but may give a clue to death date. There are more pages. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 Heres Lammies MIC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 It looks as if there is a very interesting project here. I have just done a quick check on the first five or so names and the following appear in the Death index. They obviously all fall within the qualifying period for CWGC commemoration: Robert John Gibbons died Dec 1917 aged 41 Croydon 2a361, Richard Leonard Skinner died Jun 1918 aged 44 Croydon 2a348, John George Groombridge died Jun 1918 aged 36 Croydon 2a380, Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 Lammie's record survives too, he died 12/1/1920 Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 lucky I checked before posting - was in middle of sorting lammie. Lets keep this going. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 George J Lammie died at the age of 33 in March qtr 1920 - 33 Croydon 2a304, Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 Good research forum members, it does look as though an omission has been made in this case. If it is correct this must be one of the most numerous non-coms so far. Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 Is this Charles Frederick William Fray? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 Here are the Death index refernces for the first half of the men: Deaths Dec 1917 Thomas Robert 44 Croydon 2a 359, Deaths Dec 1917 Gibbons Robert J 41 Croydon 2a 361, Deaths Jun 1918 (>99%) Skinner Richard L 44 Croydon 2a 348, Deaths Jun 1918 (>99%) Groombridge John G 36 Croydon 2a 380, Deaths Dec 1918 (>99%) Fray Charles W F 32 Croydon 2a 607, Deaths Dec 1918 (>99%) Penny William 24 Croydon 2a 618, Deaths Dec 1918 (>99%) Cartwright Alfred C 37 Croydon 2a 627, Deaths Mar 1919 (>99%) Davis Samuel 37 Croydon 2a 441, Deaths Mar 1919 (>99%) Dobson Leonard 24 Croydon 2a 450, Deaths Mar 1920 (94%) LAMMIE George J 33 Croydon 2a 304, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 Cane Hill Asylum Cemetery The link explains what has happened to the bodies from that site of the burials if the lads we are looking were buried there - I suspect that in the main they were. May I suggest that via TD we find out what the CWGC are going to do about it so as not to waste effort ourselves - Im on board if there is some serious research to be done. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjpatti Posted 18 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 September , 2009 There is a second part to the article I quoted above: 'INSANE' HEROES DESERVE BETTER Adrian Falks, a C of E minister and ex-grave digger, discovered the scandal after a friend found out her father had been admitted to an asylum. He said 'My friend Miss K was born just before the outbreak of WW1. Her father had enlisted immediately but, in 1917, suffered a mental breakdown and was admitted to a lunatic asylum. She was cared for by an aunt, who said her father had been killed in action and that her mother had died of grief'. After her aunt's death, Miss K began looking into her past and discovered her aunt had actually been her mother and her father had died in the asylum and been buried in a public grave at the hospital. Her mother was so ashamed about this that she had fabricated another life for her daughter. Mr Falks said ' There was a terrible sense of stigma about being a pauper lunatic and the family often did not want to be involved. If the widow or mother would not admit they had someone in the asylum, the families often did not look for the headstones and that could also be why they were forgotten'. Mr Falks stumbled across the issue with the invaluable help of Pam Buttrey, retired psychiatric social worker, who has done a lot of work with the Cane Hill documents at Croydon's Local Studies Library. Mr Falks said during his research he read historian Peter Barnham's "Forgotten Lunatics Of The Great War". 'Peter Barnham says after the War, the CWGC began to re-bury casualties from the various Battlefields and create War Cemeteries. The Commission did not permit the names of those who died in lunatic asylums to be recorded on headstones, or inscribed on these war memorials. My theory is that by the time the Imperial War Graves Commission began to erect permanent headstones in asylum cemeteries, official attitudes towards the 'insane poor' had hardened and it was decided to ignore the graves of lunatic soldiers'. He is so passionate about his campaign he has added a codicil to his will to ensure the names of the soldiers do not slip into oblivion. He said 'I intend making a bequest for the setting-up of a trust fund, which would at least ensure that having progressed this far, the names do not slip into oblivion again. I firmly believe that all the servicemen of the First World War have that unique right.' (Do you agree with Mr Falks? Tell us your views at croydonguardian.co.uk) I don't know if this was an issue just within Croydon or whether it was nationwide. It would be very interesting to find out just how widespread it was. I'll keep you updated as and when I find out more. Regards Teresa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 This is another example of revisionism conducted 90years after the event. Why raise this again and apply today's views on the past - these men were what they were and I fail to see why they are 'heroes'. What's next another govt worthless 'apology' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 'Peter Barnham says after the War, the CWGC began to re-bury casualties from the various Battlefields and create War Cemeteries. The Commission did not permit the names of those who died in lunatic asylums to be recorded on headstones, or inscribed on these war memorials. My theory is that by the time the Imperial War Graves Commission began to erect permanent headstones in asylum cemeteries, official attitudes towards the 'insane poor' had hardened and it was decided to ignore the graves of lunatic soldiers'. This get bigger and more serious by the minute. Even if the quote above is incorrect why were the men of Croydon ignored. This is going to run and run. Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 Here is the balance of the men for whom there is a Death certificate reference. The half a dozen with no refernce are likely to have died in the late 1920s. Deaths Jun 1922 (>99%) Chapman Albert J 35 Croydon 2a 299, Deaths Sep 1922 (95%) Dillon John B 56 Croydon 2a 239, Deaths Sep 1919 (94%) Harvey Bertie 27 Croydon 2a 238, Deaths Jun 1918 (>99%) Lawrence George C 42 Croydon 2a 352, Deaths Dec 1918 (>99%) Sutton Walter W 37 Croydon 2a 619, Deaths Dec 1918 (>99%) Schoolneart Samuel 30 Croydon 2a 618, Deaths Mar 1920 (94%) GILES Nelson 31 Croydon 2a 304, Deaths Sep 1920 (>99%) CHARMONT James 36 Croydon 2a 239, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 This is another example of revisionism conducted 90years after the event. Why raise this again and apply today's views on the past - these men were what they were and I fail to see why they are 'heroes'. What's next another govt worthless 'apology' Surely those driven insane by war, deserve to be commemorated, as much as those who managed to hold it together. Who knows what they endured, they have a right to be remembered, don't they? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 Max in that case I really have been wasting my time these few years bringing forgotten casualties in from the cold - I have quite a few post discharge deaths commemorated - this is not revisionism this is giving these men their due recognition after some 90 years which their country through its neglect & prejudices did not give them at the time. Teresa Peter Barnham unfortunately was incorrect in his statement that those in mental hospitals were ignored by the CWGC. If you go into the CWGC search engine using the cemeteries option & put in simply mental hospital you will get a few results. By the way the CWGC does not decide who is commemorated; it has that information submitted to it by the relevant service authority. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 There are certainly at least sixteen of the men that fall within the CWGC qualifying period. Clearly much depends as to whether their cause of death can be attributed to their service. Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 Mel one of the clinchers on a Dc will be the cause of death gernal paralysis of the insane - not a term I like using but one that was in use at that time Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 I would have thought that the men ably qualified for commemoration. If I understand correctly the ones where details are posted here were discharged suffering from the ailment that eventually killed them, therefore it stands to reason that they had developed the symptoms whilst in the services or the symptoms were not picked-up at the initial enlistment. When you look at the "In from the Cold" topic there are many reasons for death including suicide, drowning whilst swimming and the general run of illness etc, so it seems to me that these men without fail qualify. Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 Is this Charles Frederick William Fray? Mike Mike Charles Fray indeed looks about the most solid case so far - Im not saying the others are not solid cases Im just saying that this is an excellent example of someone that should be put forward for commemoration Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 Samuel Schooleanart discharged from the forces "delusional insanity" NOT attributable to war service according to his papers, does this mean no CWGC commemoration ? does not seem very fair if so. Ralph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 18 September , 2009 Share Posted 18 September , 2009 If you check the In From The Cold threads there have been quite a few lads that have died in asylums or mental hospitals - an example is the RN men who died at the RNH Yarmouth Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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