dfaulder Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 A question from my own ignorance of these things. As far as CWGC commemoration is concerned, does the cause of death have any bearing on it? For example Fray's papers above suggest that his dementia was not caused or aggravated by his military service. Without sight of a death certificate we can only guess at the cause of death. If for example he died of pneumonia, well after his army discharge and unconnected to his mental condition, why would he be entitled to a CWGC war grave? The In from the Cold website indicates that if the man had been discharged (but still died within the time limit), his death had to be war related: Category Two:- Personnel who had been discharged from or retired from the military before their deaths during the same qualifying periods of an injury or illness caused by or exacerbated by their service during the same qualifying period. These cases qualify only if it is PROVEN to the authorities' satisfaction that death was service attributable. I think the death certificate will be required - and then presumably if a medic had given the cause as "pneumonia" (possibly to spare the family), he would not be entitled. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 Thank you. My interpretation then is that there is no straightforward case for commemoration as a group but possibly so on a case by case basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 Just as an aside ..... I was surprised to find this when I was looking for one of my soldiers who was "shell shocked " thats probably why it didn't appear on his records ! "In no circumstances whatever will the expression 'shell-shock' be used verbally or be recorded in any regimental or other casualty report,or in any hospital or other medical document" British Army General Routine Order No. 2384 issued on 7 June 1917 issued in France Annie This is an interesting article, and includes a comment to the effect that the term shell shock was discouraged by Sir Arthur Sloggett (Director General of Medical Services of the British Armies in the Field) as he was concerned it would open a floodgate to malingerers and war pension claimants. In December 1916 he ruled that the term "Not Yet Diagnosed, Nervous" (NYDN) was preferable. Scroll down to shell shock. Wellcome Trust .... History of Medicine .... Journal Article I'm a little hesitant to post this next link, which also refers to Sir Arthur Sloggett, as I can't confirm the statements with other sources, and it talks about his attitude to psychological "shock" rather than shell shock but I would be interested in comments. It shows him in a bad light, I feel. Sir Arthur Sloggett Regards CGM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 you got a thing about buses too - spooky Chris - my cousin had the misfortune to step off the pavement without looking. Luckily she survived but has been badly affected. Just as an aside ..... I was surprised to find this Annie Is there any explanation as to why the phrase mustn't be used? One would like to think that, even then, such imprecise terminology wasnt used in official records. Presumably they wouldnt have been too keen on "loony" or "nutter" or whatever. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 These sort of campaigns say more about the campainer than the issue. You may be right - and I'd take it as a compliment if it was directed at me. A goodly number of us here are volunteers with the In From the Cold Project. We spend hours cross-checking records to look for men who have been overlooked for official commemoration. I find it hard to convey in words the emotions and satisfaction I feel when a name I've "found" is accepted for commemoration by the MoD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 Thank you. My interpretation then is that there is no straightforward case for commemoration as a group but possibly so on a case by case basis. Chris Correct - see my post #38 above for a bit more. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 Just a couple of general points. GPI was an attempt to reduce the impact on the bereaved. It was better on a DC than tertiary syphilis. I believe that the ban on the use of the phrase " shell shock ", may have had more than one reason. First, by 1917, the condition was wide spread. Rightly or wrongly, the army was very suspicious of a condition which might or might not have visible symptoms and which manifested itself in a myriad different ways. Secondly, the medical profession itself was divided as to the reality of the condition, how to describe it and whether it was treatable. What treatment was available at Craiglockhart for instance, was not likely to be made available to thousands of rank and file. So, the official reaction would be that there was no such condition unless the symptoms were extremely severe, paralysis, blindness and so on. The same sort of attitude prevailed after the war when it was necessary to cope with the long term sufferers. Statistically, a percentage of men who had served would become mentally ill. It would be incumbent on the man, or his family to prove that his condition was due to his service. Not at all easy and this same problem applied to TB and other illnesses. Incidentally, I know of a very similar case in the treatment of a member of a tank crew in WW2 who was blown up and suffered from extremely severe epilepsy. He was still fighting for a full pension in 1960s. It was not possible for a doctor to demonstrate unequivocally that the epilepsy was due solely to his accident, so he was in receipt of a partial payment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 Is this Charles Frederick William Fray? Mike Hi all, My two cents: this document lists a diagnosis for Charles of Dementia Praecox, which is the old term for what we now refer to as Schizophrenia. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 20 September , 2009 Share Posted 20 September , 2009 Max may I suggest you refrain form posting on this thread again - I already know that forum members are taking action to investigate these cases - nobody is taking a blind bit of notice of you Chris Moderators could you transfer this thread to the non comms section please Chris Daniel do you have much knowledge of mental heath issues? If you do I may have a few terms interepting Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanCurragh Posted 20 September , 2009 Share Posted 20 September , 2009 As Chris has suggested, I've moved this to the non-com subforum Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 20 September , 2009 Share Posted 20 September , 2009 Alan thanks very much Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 20 September , 2009 Share Posted 20 September , 2009 We are also going to have to check on the burials - anyone prepared to come with me to Croydon Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 20 September , 2009 Share Posted 20 September , 2009 Daniel do you have much knowledge of mental heath issues? If you do I may have a few terms interepting Chris Hi Chris, I do. I am not a psychiatrist per se but I do work with the severely mentally ill professionally (including traumatized veterans from various wars). Feel free to either PM or post them here if they seem relevant to this thread. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 20 September , 2009 Share Posted 20 September , 2009 Daniel thanks very much - once I have checked a few service records I will be in touch Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topsey1234 Posted 20 September , 2009 Share Posted 20 September , 2009 Hi Chris, I do. I am not a psychiatrist per se but I do work with the severely mentally ill professionally (including traumatized veterans from various wars). Feel free to either PM or post them here if they seem relevant to this thread. -Daniel I have just found this thread by accident but it made me think relating my recent family history researches. My mother had a great uncle by the name of James Richard Hitchcock, born 1892 in Coventry. Her brother, my uncle used to visit James in Hatton Hospital in Warwickshire in the 1950s. Supposedly he was a victim of "shell shock" so they family story went. I decided to check out the story behind him and first found out that he died in the hospital in 1967. The census for 1911 in Coventry showed he was a printer. I then eventually got (and I'll miss out the archives story behind getting the papers) his surviving hospital records. Turns out he was admitted via the Coventry Infirmary in November 1916. He was classed as a service patient until about 1918. On admission he was described as "late RWR" Royal Warwickshire Regiment". (No mention of battalion anywhere)The hospital records say the supposed cause for his admission was "services of man in army". The duration of his attack had been two months previous and this was his first one at age 24. Other records show "he had hallucinations of hearing, saying strange voices keep shouting at him." "he writes down in coherent sentences on every pieces of paper he can get hold of". "he says the voices tell him to write things down" These symptoms seem more to me like schizophrenia than shell shock, but the army chose to pay for his treatment. What I have been unable to find out is whether he ever over seas, what battalion he was in etc. I have not been able to track any thing from medals rolls. No mention in hospital records of him being overseas either. Curious to know the army's attitude to what seems to me a typical symptoms of schizophrenia- why did they appear to pay for his care and what were his service details. Was this brought on by the stress of joining up and training or did he really end up in France? Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjpatti Posted 21 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 21 September , 2009 We are also going to have to check on the burials - anyone prepared to come with me to Croydon Chris Hi Chris, I live in Croydon and am willing to do what I can to help. If you PM me what you need to know, I will see if I can contact Mr Adrian Falks and/or Miss Pam Buttrey ('who has done a lot of work with the Cane Hill documents at Croydon's Local Studies Library') to find out what they have already by way of information. Alternatively, if you want to come to Croydon yourself, I am happy to accompany you round. Regards Teresa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 21 September , 2009 Share Posted 21 September , 2009 why did they appear to pay for his care and what were his service details. Richard If you havnt been able to trace him in the medal index cards, then it is probable that he didnt serve overseas. However, his illness seems to have come on whilst he was serving, so it seems likely that the army would pay for treatment. Mental illness still carries a stigma today but, of course, nothing like that of Edwardian times. One can easily understand family wanting folk to think this was shell-shock. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 21 September , 2009 Share Posted 21 September , 2009 George J Lammie died at the age of 33 in March qtr 1920 - 33 Croydon 2a304, Mel Mel service records state GPI aggravated by military service Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 21 September , 2009 Share Posted 21 September , 2009 Could some do me the honour of having a read through this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 21 September , 2009 Share Posted 21 September , 2009 I have found this thread very intriguing, I discovered a few months ago that my great uncle George Donaldson Walton was discharged from the army due to mental illness (depression) on 6th Feburary 1914 and died of TB on the 17th April 1919 in the Kent county Lunatic Asylum in Maidstone. I am aware that he is not elligible for commemoration under CWGC rules but it became apparent that he was treated with sympathy and understanding by the Army at the time of his discharge, even retaining his good conduct stripes despite having attempted suicide. My father had been told that he had accidently shot himself prior to 1914. My uncle who died last year aged 74 was not even aware of his existance! So it became apparent that the family were embarrassed by the fact that a member of the family suffered mental illness and attempted suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 22 September , 2009 Share Posted 22 September , 2009 Hi Phil, all, This is one of those great threads, IMHO, that combines my professional and personal interests. I will try and be helpful as much as I can. I recall another thread on the GWF that discussed the term 'Disordered Action of the Heart' which one would at first blush think it a physical condition related to the heart, but it is actually a psychiatric disorder. I have a book at home that gets into it in some detail. It is certainly possible that a well individual who has a genetic predisposition for mental illness has that illness triggered by the stresses and horrors of war. Thus, a well recruit may develop what is often termed severe and persistent mental illness, like Schizophrenia, as a result of his wartime experiences. I see a modern analogy in 9/11; a fair number of people, who just happened to be near the Twin Towers at the time of the attack, began to manifest mental illnesses as a result of their experiences that day; it was that event that triggered the underlying predisposition to illness. This is not even getting into the PTSD/trauma diagnoses, which may manifest in addition to other psychiatric diagnoses. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 22 September , 2009 Share Posted 22 September , 2009 So far between myself & Mel all those falling between the CWGC cut off dates have been investigated - Mel is ordering the DCs - basically wait out for further news Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 22 September , 2009 Share Posted 22 September , 2009 The links are now up in the local paper and they are an interesting read: http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/news/loca...rgotten_heroes/ http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/news/loca...uper_lunatics_/ Good for Adrian Falks. Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjpatti Posted 22 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 22 September , 2009 The links are now up in the local paper and they are an interesting read: http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/news/loca...rgotten_heroes/ http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/news/loca...uper_lunatics_/ Good for Adrian Falks. Mel I'm really pleased that this thread has generated so much interest and that action is being taken to bring these men 'in from the cold'. Will someone from IFTC be notifying the newspaper of the Project's involvement? Regards Teresa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 23 September , 2009 Share Posted 23 September , 2009 Teresa IFTC is not dealing with these cases as they were post discharge - I would suggest you PM Mel Pack for his opinion Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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