Gueudecourt trench maps

[Christine Johnson]

On 16/01/2019 at 20:41, Howard said:

The reports of his death are somewhat confused but there is a common thread.

Reported locations are I think

Page2      Bull Trench near Flers Wood

Page2      Sausage Gully near Pozieres

Page 3     Cavalry Trench in front of Flers

Page 4     Pioneer Trench

Page 4     N.32.A.4.2

Rats Alley, Peter Chasseaud’s book, has a trench index that I think is the same as that on the McMaster University website (they are his maps on the website). In there the only Bull Trench is dated 1918 and is not near Flers. I cannot find a Cavalry Trench nearby nor an “official” Bull Trench but on the image here is a hand written Bull Road. This (almost) matches with map reference N.32.A.4.2 so it seems likely that it is Bull Road, at least that is “in front of Flers”. The index lists Pioneer Trench also at N.32.a although I have yet to find a map that shows it.

Full size and resolution map here.

 

As for reading map references, I have a page on my website here or a longer one here.

 

I hope that helps.

 

Howard

 

Dear Howard,

I hope you are well. This map is wonderful in its detail.

I plan to use it as a background layer in the artwork about Eric Bisset. Would you know who owns the rights and how to get permission to use it or who I should credit?

Christine

 

[Howard]

The answer to thank may be complicated! I spent 4 years scanning the IWM’s Great War maps, some of these scans are on sale on the WFA Mapping the Front DVDs. On the FAQs on the DVDs, in the FAQs is this Q&A:-

 

Q. May I use any part of the material from this disc in a printed book or publication?

A. No. The material on this disc is intended for personal use only. Those wishing to use this material elsewhere should approach the Imperial War Museum who can arranged the appropriate permission. Such permission is not difficult to obtain. Contact the Licensing Officer, Department of Printed Books.

 

The trouble is, many of the staff at the IWM are not well informed about these scans and if you approach them they may claim to know little or nothing about them.

The reason the collection was scanned was that along with several others, I was a volunteer correcting their map database. After having the maps for 90+ years, their database was shockingly out of date. We scrapped it and started again. It was clear to the volunteers that the museum were not capable of looking after the collection so I arranged to get £6000 from the WFA for a scanner and I used that to scan most of the maps, over 9000 scans. The copyright on the maps themselves no longer exists, that is very clearly established and admitted by the museum, however they claim the copyright of the scanned version despite it having been done by volunteers on hardware provided by a charity!

I might suggest you approach them for permission to publish but do not be too surprised to find they don’t know which item to refer to, I would guess they have lost the database of the items we so carefully created.

If you quote accession number M.5/5085 or the filename on the WFA Mapping the Front DVDs, M_5_005085.jpg, that should (might!) find it. The trouble is I do not think the Department of Printed Books exists anymore and I have lost contact with the museum. A general enquiry may yield results.

As for credit, the WFA, the Western Front Association, funded and managed the whole project so credit should go mainly them although the museum will demand they are credited.

Howard

[gitou1963]

Hello there ! Would anyone know where Bernafay Camp was ?...in Fricourt ? Thank you

 

 

[jonbem]

1 hour ago, gitou1963 said:

Hello there ! Would anyone know where Bernafay Camp was ?...in Fricourt ? Thank you

 

 

Hi and welcome to the forum

there is a reference HERE in the 8 Btn Australian Infantry Diary

[MBrockway]

Also mentioned in 4th Bn., AIF diary ...

 

Quote

Nov. 1st.              Battalion relieved 2nd Battalion in front line North of Flers and West of Grass Lane.

Nov. 2nd.            Battalion received 2 additional Lewis Guns-total now 10 guns.

Nov. 6th.             Battalion relieved in front line by 2nd Battalion, and marched to shelters in Delville Wood.

Nov. 13th.           Battalion relieved in support by 52nd Battalion and marched to shelters in Bernafay Wood.

Nov. 14th.           Battalion marched to Fricourt Camp-Nissen Huts.

Nov. 15th.           Battalion marched to billets in Buire.

Nov. 17th.           Battalion proceeded in buses from Buire to billets in Flesselles.

 

Dec. 1st.               Battalion marched from Flesselles to Vignacourt, thence by train to Becourt thence marched to billets in Ribemont.

Dec. 6th.              Battalion marched from Ribemont to Nissen huts at Mametz.

Dec. 19th.            Battalion marched from Mametz C Camp to huts and shelters in Bernafay C Camp.

Dec. 20th.            Battalion marched from Bernafay and relieved 5th Battalion in support position in Gap Trench and Switch Trench, South East of Flers.

Dec. 27th.            Battalion Mining Platoon commenced tunnel dug-outs at Bulls Road.

Dec. 31st.            Battalion relieved 3rd Bttn in front line North of Grass Lane and North East of Gueudecourt.

 

and there is further useful discussion in this topic D Camp - Trones Wood - November 1916

 

Mark

 

 

[horrocks]

Bernafay Camp was in the field between Bernafay & Trones Woods I think.

[gitou1963]

thank you everyone ! Been busy researching that soldier and didn't see your reply !!! Thank's anyway

 

[Pieter Hartog]

On 12/04/2018 at 15:41, susana9 said:

Hi - new here so not sure of format.

Am looking for trench maps / war diaries / any info for 2nd Northants Battalion up to end of October 1916. My grandfather William Thomas Bateman was killed in action near Gueudecourt on 26 October 1916.

Any help much appreciated. Thanks.

Hi Susana, I am investigating the German part of the battles around Le Transloy - opposing the front section where your grandfather was killed in action were on October 26th 1916 the men of 3rd company I/RIR73, plus two machinegun teams of MGK2 of RIR73. Further to the left (of 3rd I/RIR73), the 12th company and 1st company of I/RIR73 were positioned since that morning in the German part of the frontline, together with the remaining machinegun teams of MGK2 of RIR73 - the 12th company belonged officially to III/RIR73, but was brought to the frontline to replace the decimated 2nd company, which was moved to the R1 line (Meteor Trench/Sun Trench) on that day. At the R1 (defense) line aside from 2nd I/RIR73 two companies of the 392nd Infantry Regiment were brought in (1st and 2nd company, 1st battalion). Further to the back, at the R2 line (which ran behind Le Transloy) were the men of the 2nd battalion of the Bavarian Reserve Regiment Nr.15 - that regiment was to take over the frontsection previously held by RIR73. I visited the area around Gueudecourt last month and took numerous pictures - will send you pictures by separate message of the sector which was held by 2nd Northants Battalion. Kind regards/Pieter