chughes Posted 2 August , 2014 Share Posted 2 August , 2014 Hi, I am looking for trench maps in Gueudecourt relating to the 41st division during October 1916 and for Eaucourt-l'Abbaye. From the war diaries I have; they mention Carlton Trench, Switch Trench and Turk Lane. Thanks, C Hughes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ypres Posted 2 August , 2014 Share Posted 2 August , 2014 See here for Carlton trench. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chughes Posted 3 August , 2014 Share Posted 3 August , 2014 Thank you Jim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 12 April , 2018 Share Posted 12 April , 2018 Hi - new here so not sure of format. Am looking for trench maps / war diaries / any info for 2nd Northants Battalion up to end of October 1916. My grandfather William Thomas Bateman was killed in action near Gueudecourt on 26 October 1916. Any help much appreciated. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFBSM Posted 13 April , 2018 Share Posted 13 April , 2018 6 hours ago, susana9 said: Hi - new here so not sure of format. Am looking for trench maps / war diaries / any info for 2nd Northants Battalion up to end of October 1916. My grandfather William Thomas Bateman was killed in action near Gueudecourt on 26 October 1916. Any help much appreciated. Thanks. For the trench maps look here: http://library.mcmaster.ca/maps/ww1/home The war diaries have a look at the National Archives website: http://nationalarchives.gov.uk/ Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBrook Posted 13 April , 2018 Share Posted 13 April , 2018 An alternative source of WW1 trench maps I would recommend https://maps.nls.uk/ww1/trenches/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertb Posted 13 April , 2018 Share Posted 13 April , 2018 The Western Front Association have a series of trench maps on DVD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 13 April , 2018 Share Posted 13 April , 2018 11 hours ago, susana9 said: Hi - new here so not sure of format. Am looking for trench maps / war diaries / any info for 2nd Northants Battalion up to end of October 1916. My grandfather William Thomas Bateman was killed in action near Gueudecourt on 26 October 1916. Any help much appreciated. Thanks. 2/Northants were in 24 Infantry Brigade in 8th Division in XIV Corps, Fourth Army. On 23rd Oct 1916, 24th Brigade attacked MILD TRENCH approx 1,000 yds to the NE of Guedecourt. I don't think 2/Northants were one of the assaulting battalions (2/E Lancs stormed the actual trench), but you'll need to go through the 2/Northants war diary to check that as well as to get their exact location on 26 Oct. HTH Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 13 April , 2018 Share Posted 13 April , 2018 (edited) This should cover the front lines, but by 26 Oct 2/Northants may have been pulled back into Support or Reserve. Let us know once you've checked their war diary. It shows the trenches corrected to 11 Oct 1916 Edited 13 April , 2018 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertb Posted 13 April , 2018 Share Posted 13 April , 2018 The War Diary for the 26th October finds them at: Cloudy Trench N21,d22,c28,a,b Buzzer Avenue N28a Rainbow Trench N27b, 28a,c,d etc. (Rats Alley thank you) The map is perfect for that period. Trench map - 57cSW1 Gueudecourt/2 Villers-Au-Flos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Johnson Posted 15 January , 2019 Share Posted 15 January , 2019 Hello, I'm new to this but I'm looking for a trench map that shows Support trench, Bull trench, Pioneer trench, or maybe Cavalry trench near Flers Wood and Gueudecourt. (I'm confused by varying accounts) I am researching the death of an Australian soldier, 4751 Private Eric Simson Bisset. I am an artist and want to use a map as part of an image. I would appreciate help with a map that shows these trenches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 15 January , 2019 Share Posted 15 January , 2019 Hi Christine and welcome to the forum. Someone will come along with a really good map for you. I checked the collections from the National Library of Scotland and McMaster University without success. According to the unit war diary, the trench names for the 46th Battalion on 14 November 1916 were: Front Line: Grease Trench. Located at Sheet 57C N.21.d.36 to Goodwins Post N20.b.51 Support Line: Pioneer Trench N.32.a Battalion HQ Needle Trench N.26.c.32 I didn't find mention of Bull or Cavalry trench in the battalion unit war diary or the 12th Infantry Brigade (their headquarters). Good luck with your search and we hope you will share your image when your research is complete! Here is a 1916 map showing square N with these squares and some German trenches: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Regiano Posted 15 January , 2019 Share Posted 15 January , 2019 6 hours ago, WhiteStarLine said: Hi Christine and welcome to the forum. Someone will come along with a really good map for you. I checked the collections from the National Library of Scotland and McMaster University without success. According to the unit war diary, the trench names for the 46th Battalion on 14 November 1916 were: Front Line: Grease Trench. Located at Sheet 57C N.21.d.36 to Goodwins Post N20.b.51 Another map showing Grease Trench: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Regiano Posted 15 January , 2019 Share Posted 15 January , 2019 The start of Grease Trench at 21. d. 3. 6 is approximately where the red and white marker is in this photo looking down towards Guedecourt: and this is looking generally in the direction of the advance in October 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Johnson Posted 16 January , 2019 Share Posted 16 January , 2019 Thank you for your replies WhiteStarLine and Don Regiano, I appreciate you taking the time to help me with this. I need to find a high res image of a map of the place where ES Bisset died, so I am attaching a link to these Red Cross Society accounts - perhaps they will mean more to you - if you have time to examine them we could get more specific. https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/RCDIG1038269/document/5625937.PDF I also have some questions about how to read the maps. Could you please explain how to interpret these locations for example? 19 hours ago, WhiteStarLine said: Sheet 57C N.21.d.36 to Goodwins Post N20.b.51 I saw an aerial shot of the region on this feed from egbert. Does this tally with the trench maps we are looking at? Best wishes and thank you for answering my questions. Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Regiano Posted 16 January , 2019 Share Posted 16 January , 2019 3 hours ago, Christine Johnson said: Could you please explain how to interpret these locations for example? Christine. There is a comprehensive explanation of trench maps here: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battlefields/how-to-read-a-british-trench-map/ Reg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 16 January , 2019 Share Posted 16 January , 2019 (edited) The reports of his death are somewhat confused but there is a common thread. Reported locations are I think Page2 Bull Trench near Flers Wood Page2 Sausage Gully near Pozieres Page 3 Cavalry Trench in front of Flers Page 4 Pioneer Trench Page 4 N.32.A.4.2 Rats Alley, Peter Chasseaud’s book, has a trench index that I think is the same as that on the McMaster University website (they are his maps on the website). In there the only Bull Trench is dated 1918 and is not near Flers. I cannot find a Cavalry Trench nearby nor an “official” Bull Trench but on the image here is a hand written Bull Road. This (almost) matches with map reference N.32.A.4.2 so it seems likely that it is Bull Road, at least that is “in front of Flers”. The index lists Pioneer Trench also at N.32.a although I have yet to find a map that shows it. Full size and resolution map here. As for reading map references, I have a page on my website here or a longer one here. I hope that helps. Howard Edited 16 January , 2019 by Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 16 January , 2019 Share Posted 16 January , 2019 3 hours ago, Christine Johnson said: Thank you for your replies WhiteStarLine and Don Regiano, I appreciate you taking the time to help me with this. I need to find a high res image of a map of the place where ES Bisset died, so I am attaching a link to these Red Cross Society accounts - perhaps they will mean more to you - if you have time to examine them we could get more specific. https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/RCDIG1038269/document/5625937.PDF I also have some questions about how to read the maps. Could you please explain how to interpret these locations for example? I saw an aerial shot of the region on this feed from egbert. Does this tally with the trench maps we are looking at? Best wishes and thank you for answering my questions. Christine Map reference N.32.a.4.2 is shown here , it defines a square of 50 yard sides. On a map with trenches corrected to 3/9/1916 this is close to an area of destroyed trenches, shown dotted. If you check on the battalion history you may find that at the time, Bull Road was the support just behind the front line as mentioned on the confused reports of the location of his death. I have not checked in the battalion history so this is a guess! Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 16 January , 2019 Share Posted 16 January , 2019 Funny, I was just looking at Bulls Road on a September 1916 map when Howard's post came in. Christine's document clarifies a lot and I am going to go with the Adjutant's map reference as authoritative, as the others mention trench names but he gives a map reference. Bull's road itself is shown in N.32.d, some 400 metres south: 57c.N.32.a.4.2 is as marked by Howard in post #26. I've read the brigade and battalion unit war diary and checked CEW Bean's Official History and notebooks but they shed no further details. The current location is: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 16 January , 2019 Share Posted 16 January , 2019 I have now checked more than 30 maps but have failed to improve on the Bulls Road assumption. That area of destroyed trenches merits a longer look, they are shown as solid lines on slightly earlier maps so the date they were destroyed maybe of significance. The very fact that the reports of his death are so confused would match with a period of great activity, heavy shelling etc. I agree with Bill, I would take the Adjutant’s report as being most reliable, the others look like being from memory whilst in hospital etc. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 16 January , 2019 Share Posted 16 January , 2019 I finally found all references thanks. I had forgotten that if the battalion and brigade diaries are sparse, then the divisional staff are normally much better! Here is the reference from the 4th Division AIF November 1916 diary (https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/RCDIG1011325/bundled/RCDIG1011325.pdf): The map shows the entire Army front line from November 1916 and sketch map on page 45 shows Bulls Rd in N.32.a, intersecting with Pioneer Trench in N.32.c. So everything correlates - the Adjutant's reference and Pioneer Trench. Support Rd and Grease Trench are there. See the detailed high resolution map on page 45 of https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1349902, but it is a pretty faded map. Highlighting is mine ... Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 16 January , 2019 Share Posted 16 January , 2019 (edited) And with a tweak in Photoshop and a full page version here. Good find Bill ! Howard Edited 16 January , 2019 by Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Regiano Posted 16 January , 2019 Share Posted 16 January , 2019 9 hours ago, Christine Johnson said: I saw an aerial shot of the region on this feed from egbert. Does this tally with the trench maps we are looking at? Christine. The recent posts have, understandably, gravitated to the area to the East of Flers and South of Gueudecourt (large squares 26, 31 and 32). This is the bottom left quadrant of Egbert's aerial photograph (Flers is in the bottom left corner). Here's a map (actually it's an amalgam of maps) showing Needle Trench in that area (square 32): Grease Trench, which I referred to earlier and is mentioned in the Australian documents is to the NE of Gueudecourt. Reg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Johnson Posted 10 February , 2019 Share Posted 10 February , 2019 On 27/09/2005 at 11:25, egbert said: Very unique aerial from 1 Oct 1916; if needed in high resolution email me Dear Egbert, This is the picture I need in high res, the lower left quadrant showing trenches SW of Gueudecourt in Oct/Nov 1916. Please advise if this is possible. Many thanks, Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Johnson Posted 11 February , 2019 Share Posted 11 February , 2019 On 16/01/2019 at 21:03, WhiteStarLine said: Funny, I was just looking at Bulls Road on a September 1916 map when Howard's post came in. Christine's document clarifies a lot and I am going to go with the Adjutant's map reference as authoritative, as the others mention trench names but he gives a map reference. Bull's road itself is shown in N.32.d, some 400 metres south: 57c.N.32.a.4.2 is as marked by Howard in post #26. I've read the brigade and battalion unit war diary and checked CEW Bean's Official History and notebooks but they shed no further details. The current location is: Dear friends, You have all been so generous with your time and research! I am very grateful to have all this information which I will pass on to the Bisset family. You may have wondered why you have not heard from me for a while. One of my sons has been very ill and I have had to put this work on hold for a few weeks. My son is improving now and I am back! Thank you for your close and thoughtful examination of records and for the maps. This seems to be as close as we can get to identifying the place of Bisset's death. I will post news of this project as it nears completion. Again, many, many thanks. Sincerely, Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now