MBrockway Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 conijoni, What a marvellous source document for the home service war work of the CLB! I will add links to this Topic from some of our earlier Church Lads Brigade threads. IIRC we have corresponded in the past about the Church Lads Brigade Historical Group?? Might it be useful to post details of this group here for those with an interest in the CLB? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 See website British Badge Forum ... http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/al...php?albumid=176 conijoni, This link to the BBF seems to be wrong! I've had a look through the BBF Albums to try and fix it, but I can't find a likely candidate! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 The article comes from 'The Brigade' magazine, 1916 bound volume. The archives are held at Brigade Headquarters at Wath upon Dearne, near Sheffield. You would be amazed at the quality and detail of the material available. From the 1890s to 1919 the archive material is fantastic, after that it is less so. The Brigade's Historical Group is extremely active. A magazine is produced twice a year. Some of the members have in depth knowledge of the 16th KRRC. Membership is £5 per year. Secretary is Neville Gray, 01522 509 700, russ@fieldfarmhouse.fsnet.co.uk. The Annual Conference is on Sat. 26th September at Brigade HQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 The London Diocesan Church Lads Brigade (founded 1891 for the London Diocese which is London north of the Thames) was NOT the same as the Church Lads Brigade. They were two distinct, separate, completely apart, not affiliated organisations. Pals, There's some good historical background to the Church Lads Brigade and the London Diocesan Church Lads Brigade in the pamphlet published by the Historical Group (see post above) available here: Looking Back - the history of the Church Lads' & Church Girls' Brigade Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 lansleyd, Given that Dodgson had "considerable knowledge of the Works, and this, of course, was of immense advantage" (Post #23) could we hazard a guess that he was some sort of civil engineer by profession? Possibly with knowledge of docks and waterways structures? That could connect some of the clues pointing to his TF and RDC service at Pembroke Docks and Liverpool with his CLB Cadet activities protecting the Birmingham/Elan Valley water scheme. Just thinking aloud! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lansleyd Posted 2 July , 2009 Author Share Posted 2 July , 2009 lansleyd, Given that Dodgson had "considerable knowledge of the Works, and this, of course, was of immense advantage" (Post #23) could we hazard a guess that he was some sort of civil engineer by profession? Possibly with knowledge of docks and waterways structures? That could connect some of the clues pointing to his TF and RDC service at Pembroke Docks and Liverpool with his CLB Cadet activities protecting the Birmingham/Elan Valley water scheme. Just thinking aloud! Cheers, Mark MBrockway, CHWD was a land agent, as was his father Wilfred Dodgson. Wilfred took agricultural pupils, and on of them, Reginald Smith - was son of ( forgive tortuosity!) - Edmund James Smith - famous for his work for the London Water Board ! Reginald Smith became a manager for Birmingham branch of Smiths Gore in the 1890s. CHWD would have been well up on hydraulical engineering It would be excellent to track down a connection to the Pembroke RDC unit that formed from the KLR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 Mark. Re the link to the Badge Forum - Are you registered? If I followed the link I would have to log in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 Mark. Re the link to the Badge Forum - Are you registered? If I followed the link I would have to log in. I've been a member of the BBF since February - maybe that's why the link doesn't work: I get logged in automatically. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lansleyd Posted 3 July , 2009 Author Share Posted 3 July , 2009 Now to Mr CHW Dodgson. He was in the CLB, not the LDCLB. He was an officer in Company 2866, Ludlow Company, part of the 1st Bn, Hereford Regt. (Diocese). He was appointed 2nd Lt 27/8/09 and Captain 24/2/12. These are CLB ranks. The company had RHL Dodgson as Lt. - brother? I do not have records beyond 1913. The Bn was recognised as a Cadet Battalion on 15/7/12. Conijoni, Can you give dates for Reginald H L Dodgson in the CLB ? For CHW Dodgson , is there a date for joining - or did he join as 2nd Lt on 27/8/09 ? IS your book " Fall in " about Irish CLB or in general - and are copies available ( other than the collector's item on ABE books) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 4 July , 2009 Share Posted 4 July , 2009 My book "Fall In" gives a general picture, then focuses on Irish CLB. Company 2866 was enrolled 27th Aug 09, same date as Dodgson as 2nd Lt. Note he was the officer in charge. If he had been working as an officer elsewhere he would have had an earlier commission date. Whether he was CLB as a boy will be very hard to tell. If he lived in Ludlow all his life, it is unlikely, as Company 2866 was a new unit in 1909. If it had existed previously it would have had an earlier number. The CLB seems to have been quite a small organisation in Hereford. It was very large in other dioceses, ie Manchester. And the brother - see below. By the way, How much is "Fall In" on Abe Books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 4 July , 2009 Share Posted 4 July , 2009 The brother fron CWGC DODGSON , REGINALD HENRY LUTWIDGE Lieutenant, died 14/03/1918, aged 38, Royal Defence Corps United Kingdom C. 7. 1227. LUDLOW NEW CEMETERY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lansleyd Posted 4 July , 2009 Author Share Posted 4 July , 2009 The brother fron CWGC DODGSON , REGINALD HENRY LUTWIDGE Lieutenant, died 14/03/1918, aged 38, Royal Defence Corps United Kingdom C. 7. 1227. LUDLOW NEW CEMETERY Fall In: A History of the Church Lads' and Church Girls' Brigade [Paperback. Bookseller: Bookfind4u (Belfast, Antr, United Kingdom) Bookseller Rating: Price: US$ 84.03 [Convert Currency] Quantity: 1 Shipping within United Kingdom: US$ 5.14 [Rates & Speeds] Book Description: Book Condition: Collectible; Like New. Signed by author. Very slight shelfwear, otherwise like new. Inscription reads: "To Doreen, Best wishes, Johnny, April 1992". HIS2. Book. Bookseller Inventory # 10-XQVO-FQ9Y0122K901234 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 4 July , 2009 Share Posted 4 July , 2009 lansleyd, This perhaps would better belong in one the earlier Dodgson threads, but I'll put it here as this now seems to the "active" one. We've been puzzling over CHW Dodgson being commissioned as a Captain (with no existing rank mentioned) into the Territorial Force Reserve General List in May 1915 (or 05 Jul 1915 according to LG). I recently came across Army Order 187 of May 1915, which deals with the formation of the Supernumerary Companies. Full text is here: Paul Nixon's Army Service Number blog - Supernumerary Companies entry Paragraph 6 seems to be relevant to our questions: 6. The officers of these companies will be appointed to the Territorial Force Reserve (General List). .... [goes on to explain the procedure for these officers to apply for TFR Commissions] Also Paragraph 1: 1. National Reservists who are required for the special purpose of guarding railways and other vulnerable points will be enlisted into Territorial Force in companies, supernumerary to existing battalions of that Force. As far as possible, the selected battalions will be those raised in the districts in which these ex-National Reservists are to be employed. From this we could postulate that a Supernumerary Company in the Ludlow area might not necessarily be attached to a battalion in the traditional regiment of the district (KSLI?) but to a TF battalion of the King's (Liverpools) instead. This could explain the KLR uniforms. Captain CHW Dodgson's commission date of May 1915 coincides neatly with AO 187 also of May 1915. The tone of AO 187 seems to suggest that the Supernumerary Companies were but very loosely attached to their new TF battalions, while the very term supernumerary would suggest the men in them were not to be regarded as being on the Establishment of the TF battalion. Perhaps that also accounts for Dodgson not appearing on the Army Lists for the KLR. Here are some notes on the Supernumerary Companies from here on the Mother Site (with a few edits) ... The National Reserve was, in essence, a register maintained by Territorial Force County Associations of all those who had military experience, but who had no other reserve obligation. It was divided in three classes: Class I for those under 42 in age, Class II officers & senior ranks under 55 & junior ranks under 50 for home service only, Class III those who were not medically fit for Classes I and II. In October 1914 the National Reserve was formed into Protection Companies, which were attached to existing TF battalions, for the guarding of railways and other vulnerable points in Britain. That November, all Class I and II men were ordered to present themselves for enlistment. In March 1915 [sic - should read May 1915?] the Protection Companies were redesignated as Supernumerary Companies TFR. As for the Supernumerary Companies, they were eventually [April 1916? or August 1917?] formed into the Royal Defence Corps. With Dodgson's activities in the Birmingham Aqueduct Guard, it seems natural he would also be involved with the "fully armed troops" that took over from the CLB Cadets some time between the end of 1914 and 1916 (when the article from The Brigade in Posts #22-24 was published). Again we can postulate that these "fully armed troops" were actually Protection Companies of National Reservists, since the Aqueduct seems to fit their remit of guarding vulnerable points exactly. Both Dodgson brothers seem to have had poor health IIRC from the various other Dodgson threads. They might have been designated Class III and thus missed the trawls through the NR men that took place in 1915 and remained in an unidentified Protection Company, which became a Supernumerary Company in the TFR in May 1915, and then 328 Protection Company in the Royal Defence Corps in 1917. Do the Pals think this is a workable scenario for the two brothers? Do any of the King's specialists have any information about a Supernumerary Company attached to (probably) the 3rd/5th battalion KLR? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 4 July , 2009 Share Posted 4 July , 2009 Anyone who pays 90 dollars including postage for "Fall In" would need their head examined. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lansleyd Posted 4 July , 2009 Author Share Posted 4 July , 2009 Anyone who pays 90 dollars including postage for "Fall In" would need their head examined. Cheers. Where can an affordable unsigned copy be acquired? Or should I invest ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 4 July , 2009 Share Posted 4 July , 2009 I may have a spare copy or two. You will have to wait till I come back from hols though. Going tomorrow. Will do you a signed copy very reasonably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 5 July , 2009 Share Posted 5 July , 2009 Ludlow Company, No 2866, Church Lads Brigade - R W Alcock was appointed 2nd Lt, 15th Sept 1915, and Captain, 24th May 1916. The company also appointed a new correspondent in Sept 1915. Johnny Conn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 5 July , 2009 Share Posted 5 July , 2009 The brother fron CWGC DODGSON , REGINALD HENRY LUTWIDGE Lieutenant, died 14/03/1918, aged 38, Royal Defence Corps United Kingdom C. 7. 1227. LUDLOW NEW CEMETERY Does this indicate any family connection with Rev Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, aka Lewis Carroll? Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 5 July , 2009 Share Posted 5 July , 2009 Does this indicate any family connection with Rev Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, aka Lewis Carroll? Ron There is a connection, but ask lansleyd, he is the main man on this thread. I'm only helping out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lansleyd Posted 5 July , 2009 Author Share Posted 5 July , 2009 Does this indicate any family connection with Rev Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, aka Lewis Carroll? Ron Yes - Reginald Henry Lutwidge and Charles Hassard Wilfrid of the CLB, KLR, TFR and RDC were nephews of " Lewis Carroll". Their father was Wilfred Longley Dodgson (1838-1914) who was a land agent to Lord Boyne in Shropshire until 1902 and then had an office in Ludlow working as W.L. Dodgson and Son, i.e. in partnership with C.H.W.D, who joined the CLB cadets in 1909. Reginald was their clerk in the business. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 5 July , 2009 Share Posted 5 July , 2009 Thanks David Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lansleyd Posted 5 July , 2009 Author Share Posted 5 July , 2009 Mark, I hope we can get the KLR experts to consider your scheme and get their comments I actually think there is a more likely KLR unit than the 3/5 Bn. The two Dodgsons were transferred to the 326 Pro Coy based Rotherwas Barracks, Hereford May 1916(RHLD) and Jan 1917 (Captain CHWD). The 3/5 Bn only moved to Oswestry early 1916. More likely is the 3rd ( Reserve) Bn KLR, moved to Pembroke Dock July 1915. Although as you say , location may not have been an absolute factor in which Bn a SN Co was seconded to, David lansleyd, This perhaps would better belong in one the earlier Dodgson threads, but I'll put it here as this now seems to the "active" one. We've been puzzling over CHW Dodgson being commissioned as a Captain (with no existing rank mentioned) into the Territorial Force Reserve General List in May 1915 (or 05 Jul 1915 according to LG). I recently came across Army Order 187 of May 1915, which deals with the formation of the Supernumerary Companies. Full text is here: Paul Nixon's Army Service Number blog - Supernumerary Companies entry Paragraph 6 seems to be relevant to our questions: 6. The officers of these companies will be appointed to the Territorial Force Reserve (General List). .... [goes on to explain the procedure for these officers to apply for TFR Commissions] Also Paragraph 1: 1. National Reservists who are required for the special purpose of guarding railways and other vulnerable points will be enlisted into Territorial Force in companies, supernumerary to existing battalions of that Force. As far as possible, the selected battalions will be those raised in the districts in which these ex-National Reservists are to be employed. From this we could postulate that a Supernumerary Company in the Ludlow area might not necessarily be attached to a battalion in the traditional regiment of the district (KSLI?) but to a TF battalion of the King's (Liverpools) instead. This could explain the KLR uniforms. Captain CHW Dodgson's commission date of May 1915 coincides neatly with AO 187 also of May 1915. The tone of AO 187 seems to suggest that the Supernumerary Companies were but very loosely attached to their new TF battalions, while the very term supernumerary would suggest the men in them were not to be regarded as being on the Establishment of the TF battalion. Perhaps that also accounts for Dodgson not appearing on the Army Lists for the KLR. Here are some notes on the Supernumerary Companies from here on the Mother Site (with a few edits) ... The National Reserve was, in essence, a register maintained by Territorial Force County Associations of all those who had military experience, but who had no other reserve obligation. It was divided in three classes: Class I for those under 42 in age, Class II officers & senior ranks under 55 & junior ranks under 50 for home service only, Class III those who were not medically fit for Classes I and II. In October 1914 the National Reserve was formed into Protection Companies, which were attached to existing TF battalions, for the guarding of railways and other vulnerable points in Britain. That November, all Class I and II men were ordered to present themselves for enlistment. In March 1915 [sic - should read May 1915?] the Protection Companies were redesignated as Supernumerary Companies TFR. As for the Supernumerary Companies, they were eventually [April 1916? or August 1917?] formed into the Royal Defence Corps. With Dodgson's activities in the Birmingham Aqueduct Guard, it seems natural he would also be involved with the "fully armed troops" that took over from the CLB Cadets some time between the end of 1914 and 1916 (when the article from The Brigade in Posts #22-24 was published). Again we can postulate that these "fully armed troops" were actually Protection Companies of National Reservists, since the Aqueduct seems to fit their remit of guarding vulnerable points exactly. Both Dodgson brothers seem to have had poor health IIRC from the various other Dodgson threads. They might have been designated Class III and thus missed the trawls through the NR men that took place in 1915 and remained in an unidentified Protection Company, which became a Supernumerary Company in the TFR in May 1915, and then 328 Protection Company in the Royal Defence Corps in 1917. Do the Pals think this is a workable scenario for the two brothers? Do any of the King's specialists have any information about a Supernumerary Company attached to (probably) the 3rd/5th battalion KLR? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 5 July , 2009 Share Posted 5 July , 2009 Mark, I hope we can get the KLR experts to consider your scheme and get their comments I actually think there is a more likely KLR unit than the 3/5 Bn. The two Dodgsons were transferred to the 326 Pro Coy based Rotherwas Barracks, Hereford May 1916(RHLD) and Jan 1917 (Captain CHWD). The 3/5 Bn only moved to Oswestry early 1916. More likely is the 3rd ( Reserve) Bn KLR, moved to Pembroke Dock July 1915. Although as you say , location may not have been an absolute factor in which Bn a SN Co was seconded to, David David, The thing about the Supernumerary Companies was they were only attached administratively to a territorial battalion as a "flag of convenience". The link was very weak beyond that and on the whole I think the Supernumerary Cos were not absorbed into the "family" of their attached regiment but kept themselves to themselves. Certainly IIRC the Supernumerary Companies attached to the Rifle Brigade were never really seen as properly part of the regiment within The Rifle Brigade and they hardly figure in the regimental histories More importantly, I don't think the Supernumerary Companies relocated to be at the same location as the battalion they were attached to, but rather continued performing the same guarding role they had done when they were Protection Companies of National Reservists, and at the same installations - in this case the Elan Valley Aqueduct System. In other words I don't think it is relevant where 3rd/5th KLR nor 3rd (Home Service) Btn, KLR were based. Also I suspect that the Dodgsons' unit remained in Ludlow and was only attached to Rotherwas Barracks in Hereford for administrative purposes. Hereford Barracks was probably the nearest military depot to Ludlow. My postulation is that the Dodgsons were both medically unfit for service in France so spent their war guarding their local Ludlow section of the strategically vital Elan Valley Aqueduct, which was Birmingham's principal drinking water supply. If I'm right, they probably spent much of the war with the same group of local Ludlow men, probably all deemed unfit or unsuitable for Overseas Service, and that same group of Ludlow men were merely moved as a complete self-contained unit between different administrative bodies and given different labels - Protection Companies in the National Reserve, Supernumerary Companies in the Territorial Force Reserve (possibly attached to the KLR), then 328 Protection Company in the Royal Defence Corps, with the Dodgsons having a spell leading CLB cadets early on. The whole group spent the whole war static in the Ludlow area. Can you see what I'm saying? As yet I have no strong evidence to prove this beyond the fact that CHW Dodgson was commissioned directly as a Captain in the TFR (General List) at the same time as the Supernumerary Companies were set up with their officers set up on the TFR (General List), which strongly suggests he was an officer in a Supernumerary Company. Plus of course his work with the CLB cadets early in the war performing the same sort of duties as the Protection and Supernumerary Companies were tasked with. What do the Pals think? Any suggestions on research angles we could take to at least investigate my postulation? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lansleyd Posted 6 July , 2009 Author Share Posted 6 July , 2009 David, The thing about the Supernumerary Companies was they were only attached administratively to a territorial battalion as a "flag of convenience". The link was very weak beyond that and on the whole I think the Supernumerary Cos were not absorbed into the "family" of their attached regiment but kept themselves to themselves. Certainly IIRC the Supernumerary Companies attached to the Rifle Brigade were never really seen as properly part of the regiment within The Rifle Brigade and they hardly figure in the regimental histories More importantly, I don't think the Supernumerary Companies relocated to be at the same location as the battalion they were attached to, but rather continued performing the same guarding role they had done when they were Protection Companies of National Reservists, and at the same installations - in this case the Elan Valley Aqueduct System. In other words I don't think it is relevant where 3rd/5th KLR nor 3rd (Home Service) Btn, KLR were based. Also I suspect that the Dodgsons' unit remained in Ludlow and was only attached to Rotherwas Barracks in Hereford for administrative purposes. Hereford Barracks was probably the nearest military depot to Ludlow. My postulation is that the Dodgsons were both medically unfit for service in France so spent their war guarding their local Ludlow section of the strategically vital Elan Valley Aqueduct, which was Birmingham's principal drinking water supply. If I'm right, they probably spent much of the war with the same group of local Ludlow men, probably all deemed unfit or unsuitable for Overseas Service, and that same group of Ludlow men were merely moved as a complete self-contained unit between different administrative bodies and given different labels - Protection Companies in the National Reserve, Supernumerary Companies in the Territorial Force Reserve (possibly attached to the KLR), then 328 Protection Company in the Royal Defence Corps, with the Dodgsons having a spell leading CLB cadets early on. The whole group spent the whole war static in the Ludlow area. Can you see what I'm saying? As yet I have no strong evidence to prove this beyond the fact that CHW Dodgson was commissioned directly as a Captain in the TFR (General List) at the same time as the Supernumerary Companies were set up with their officers set up on the TFR (General List), which strongly suggests he was an officer in a Supernumerary Company. Plus of course his work with the CLB cadets early in the war performing the same sort of duties as the Protection and Supernumerary Companies were tasked with. What do the Pals think? Any suggestions on research angles we could take to at least investigate my postulation? Cheers, Mark Unless anyone can knock it down, I am very happy with this scheme, it seems to explain everything. CHW Dodgson, with KLR uniform, was in a Supernumerary Company and appeared in the TFR( General List) that appeared in the Monthly Army Lists - there must have been hundreds of people in Regimental uniform not listed in the regular battalion lists. 6. The officers of these companies will be appointed to the Territorial Force Reserve (General List). Only thing that seems odd is why Ludlow men should join a Supernumery Company affiliated to the King's Liverpool Regiment of all regiments when there were more local ones like the KSLI, would have been more logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 6 July , 2009 Share Posted 6 July , 2009 Only thing that seems odd is why Ludlow men should join a Supernumerary Company affiliated to the King's Liverpool Regiment of all regiments when there were more local ones like the KSLI, would have been more logical. David, My postulation certainly needs a bit more scrutiny from the Pals before it can be accepted I'd say! WRT to the SN being attached to the KLR rather than the KSLI, Army Order 187 does say (my emphasis) ... As far as possible, the selected battalions will be those raised in the districts in which these ex-National Reservists are to be employed. Perhaps the KSLI was simply oversubscribed and the KLR was the nearest alternative TF unit that could take these Ludlow men on? The Herefordshire Regiment was an all-territorial regiment IIRC, so perhaps there were some difficulties with headcount in the TF in the central Welsh Marches region and the Army authorities had to go further north. We'll need some inputs here from a Pal with more detailed knowledge of TF recruitment in Herefordshire and Salop Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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