lansleyd Posted 21 June , 2009 Share Posted 21 June , 2009 I am seeking clarification from anyone that can help. In 1914 a man was a Cadet-Major. A plaque was presented to him by all the ranks of the C.L.B. ( Church Lad's Brigade) Cadets who served under him in the Birmingham Aqueduct Guard 1914-15. The same man then became a Captain in the TF ( General List) in May 1915, and in 1917 became a Major in the RDC. Does anyone know more about the rank " Cadet-Major" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 21 June , 2009 Share Posted 21 June , 2009 Hello lansleyd There was no such rank in the Army. Presumably it was a rank in the CLB, comparable to Scoutmaster in the Boy Scouts. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lansleyd Posted 21 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 21 June , 2009 Ron Much appreciated - that clears up much mystery. Hello lansleyd There was no such rank in the Army. Presumably it was a rank in the CLB, comparable to Scoutmaster in the Boy Scouts. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 21 June , 2009 Share Posted 21 June , 2009 Medal card of Montfort, F de C Corps Regiment No Rank Special Lists Second Lieutenant London Cadet Battalion Cadet Major You can see how it can get confusing though. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 22 June , 2009 Share Posted 22 June , 2009 lansleyd, You will probably find this Topic useful background reading on the CLB Cadets and their relationship to the KRRC: 16th Battalion KRRC., Unusual badge. Be aware that there was also the 1st Cadet Battalion, KRRC based in Mayfair, London. This was affiliated in 1894 and won battle honours in the Second Boer War, giving it the right to wear a Battle Honour on its cap badge, which was a variant of the KRRC maltese cross. There were also several public school OTCs with affiliations to the KRRC and The Rifle Brigade. I'm not at home at the moment, so I don't have my list of these to hand Your man's connection with the aqueduct guard in Birmingham clearly points to the CLB Cadets though. One of the links in the Topic above in turn links through to a Church Lads Brigade history website which mentions the CLB Cadets guarding important infrastructure installations such as reservoirs and railway yards. I see from the MIC that your man had applied for the 1914 Star and the Intelligence Corps seems to be mentioned. Perhaps a London Gazette search for his commission as a 2/Lt might throw up more info on this? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 22 June , 2009 Share Posted 22 June , 2009 I see from the MIC that your man had applied for the 1914 Star and the Intelligence Corps seems to be mentioned. Perhaps a London Gazette search for his commission as a 2/Lt might throw up more info on this? Cheers, Mark Pals, I found this more easily than I usually do with the LG : LG #28905 - 15 Sep 1914 However it does little more than give us more of his name: His MIC seems to suggest he Disembarked in France on 15 Sep 1914. I'm sure his becoming a temporary 2/Lt the day before is connected with this. Perhaps he had an Intelligence/Special Agent role early in the war before he returned to Blighty and the cadets? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lansleyd Posted 22 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 22 June , 2009 MBrockway - your postings and link very interesting - Thanks. Is it likely then that an officer appointed Captain in the TF's in 1915 would have been a " Cadet-Major" leading CLB Cadets in 1914 ? -and so " dropping" a rank? Pals, I found this more easily than I usually do with the LG : LG #28905 - 15 Sep 1914 However it does little more than give us more of his name: His MIC seems to suggest he Disembarked in France on 15 Sep 1914. I'm sure his becoming a temporary 2/Lt the day before is connected with this. Perhaps he had an Intelligence/Special Agent role early in the war before he returned to Blighty and the cadets? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 22 June , 2009 Share Posted 22 June , 2009 MBrockway - your postings and link very interesting - Thanks. Is it likely then that an officer appointed Captain in the TF's in 1915 would have been a " Cadet-Major" leading CLB Cadets in 1914 ? -and so " dropping" a rank? lansleyd, The rank structure in the CLB Cadets was entirely unrelated to the ranks within the Army. He would have continued to be a Cadet Major in the eyes of the CLB Cadet movement whatever his military rank. The CLB Cadets were recognised by the War Office and were part of the Territorial Cadet Force. As such they were an important component in War Office plans for Home Defence. My guess is that the MIC mentions "Cadet Major" in this capacity, but it looks like Frederic de C. Montfort also undertook some operation in France in September 1914 which required him to be very hastily given a 2/Lt's commission and which he felt may have entitled him to a 1914 Star. Can you give your sources for the info about his promotion to Captain in the TF (what unit?) in 1915 and a Royal Defence Corps Major in 1917? That might throw up some further leads for the Pals on this interesting man. Do you know where he came from? The MIC mentions Queen's Gate in South Kensington. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 23 June , 2009 Share Posted 23 June , 2009 Pals, I found no trace of him in Queen's Gate, South Kensington in the Street Directory section of the 1902 Post Office Directory for London. Haven't checked the rest of London yet. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lansleyd Posted 23 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 23 June , 2009 Mark I need to clear sthing up before confusion continues. The Montfort name has nothing to do with my initial enquiry - Mick had added this to illustrate another case of the rank " Cadet-Major". The person I am following was C.H.W.Dodgson, transferred to TF Reserve ( General List) after being Cadet-Major in C.L.B. . In a previous chain, nobody has managed to find his unit in the TFR. He was later in the RDC ( 326 Pro Coy) based at Rotherwas Barracks, Hereford. It's an unsolved mystery why in photos of him - see the other chain using search - he wears KLR ( not KRRC) insignia. David Pals, I found no trace of him in Queen's Gate, South Kensington in the Street Directory section of the 1902 Post Office Directory for London. Haven't checked the rest of London yet. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 23 June , 2009 Share Posted 23 June , 2009 Mark I need to clear sthing up before confusion continues. The Montfort name has nothing to do with my initial enquiry - Mick had added this to illustrate another case of the rank " Cadet-Major". The person I am following was C.H.W.Dodgson, transferred to TF Reserve ( General List) after being Cadet-Major in C.L.B. . In a previous chain, nobody has managed to find his unit in the TFR. He was later in the RDC ( 326 Pro Coy) based at Rotherwas Barracks, Hereford. It's an unsolved mystery why in photos of him - see the other chain using search - he wears KLR ( not KRRC) insignia. David Ha! And I've just spent 45 mins trawling the rest of Kelly's Directory for Montfort! Oh well Dodgson's service with the CLB Cadets would not necessarily mean he would subsequently enlist into the KRRC. Likewise the CLB cadets themselves did not all enlist into the 16th (Church Lads Brigade) Battalion of the KRRC. For example CLB Cadet KRRC-style cap badges have been found on the Gallipoli battlefields where the KRRC never served. It is likely that they were carried as talismans by former CLB cadets in other regiments. The original CLB badge is designed around the Christian armour as described in Ephesians, 6, 11-18, it shows the SHIELD of Faith, the HELMET of Salvation, the SWORD of the Spirit, the GIRDLE of Truth and the BREASTPLATE of Righteousness. Perhaps the same spiritual associations became attached to the revised CLB cadet badge based on the KRRC badge, which is after all a very prominent maltese Christian cross. I would go further and say that the majority of the former CLB cadets enlisted into regiments other than the KRRC. There were 70,000 active members in the CLB in 1908. By 1914 the pool of past and present CLB cadets would have been far greater then the roll call of the entire KRRC let alone the 16th Btn. Neither were all the men in 16/KRRC former CLB cadets, though the majority of the original establishment would have been. My own grandfather enlisted into the 12/KRRC but was later transferred into the 16th (CLB) Btn. He had no connection with the CLB whatever. If Dodgson is wearing KLR uniform in your photos, he most likely was in one of the KLR territorial units or a unit affiliated in some other way to the KLR. I'm guessing that all of Dodgson's war service was in the UK. There are a number of KLR experts here on the Forum who may be able to help. I know the 3rd Battalion of the Royal Defence Corps was originally the 3rd (Home Service) Garrison Battalion of the King's Liverpool Regiment - that might be a good place to look further, particularly if you can establish a link with Hereford. All I know about them i they were formed in Pembroke - at least Hereford is en route between Pembroke and Liverpool! Good luck! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 23 June , 2009 Share Posted 23 June , 2009 Just searched through all the "back catalogue" on this subject and see pretty much all my suggestions have been covered already! ... and all our KLR expertise is already marshalled! Funnily enough I had also been looking into a Lewis Carroll connection myself with Daresbury being so close and having a vague memory of a Wirral connection, but took it no further when I found he had no children. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 23 June , 2009 Share Posted 23 June , 2009 Sorry everyone for causing the confusion. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 23 June , 2009 Share Posted 23 June , 2009 Sorry everyone for causing the confusion. Mick Not at all Mick - I should have read the thread a bit more closely myself! The de C Montfort chap actually loks quite fascinating - quite tempted to do some digging anyway! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 29 June , 2009 Share Posted 29 June , 2009 From its foundation date (1891) to the present day the Church Lads' Brigade has used a military rank structure. I became a 2nd Lt in 1977, then Lt a couple of years later, then Captain - I was in charge of the local parish company. Some years later I was in charge of a battalion of ten companies and promoted to Major. As we had several battalions there was a Regimental CO and he was Colonel. Lads could be L/Cpl, Cpl, Sgt, etc. There were staff sgts, colour sgts, regimental sgt majors, etc. When the CLB affiliated to the Cadet Force in 1911 they also employed the cadet rank structure. An officer who gained proficiency in the Cadet Force was presented with a warrant by the Lord Lieutenant of the County TFA on behalf of the monarch. So for example, if you had a man in charge of a company who had his cadet proficiency, he would have held the CLB rank of Captain and a Cadet Captain's warrant. Are you still with me? A more senior officer may have held a CLB rank of Lt Colonel but only been recognised as a Cadet Major in the Cadet Force. The man at the top of the CLB was the Cadet Colonel Commandant. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantowi Posted 29 June , 2009 Share Posted 29 June , 2009 Could this be Mr C.H.W.Dodgson in the 1901 census: DODGSON, Charles H W Lodger Single M 25 1876 Landagent Stoke St Milbro Shropshire Living at 61, Quarry Street, Guildford St Mary, Guildford Born - Charles Hassard W (Ludlow / 6A / 609 / 2qt / 1876 Married - Geraldine A Maclavety (Hereford / 6A / 959 / 1qt / 1920 Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 30 June , 2009 Share Posted 30 June , 2009 Here we have an appointment to Cadet Lt. in the County of London, March 1912, signed by Marquis of Crewe, to an officer in the London Diocesan Church Lads' Brigade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 30 June , 2009 Share Posted 30 June , 2009 Here is an appointment to Cadet Lt, February 1912, in the County of Limerick, Ireland, signed Earl of Dunraven, to an officer in the Church Lads' Brigade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 1 July , 2009 Share Posted 1 July , 2009 conijoni, Excellent posts - they've certainly clarified many things for myself. I'll also alert Bob Pearson who will find that all very interesting. langleyd, So in fact it appears that I am wrong above - your man really had three ranks simultaneously: the military rank of Cadet Major within the cadet branch of the Territorial Force the military rank of Captain in the TF on the General List (later Major in the RDC) his Church Lads Brigade rank, which we do not know, but was probably at least a Major with the first being held by Warrant issued by a Lord Lieutenant and the second a Commission. The CLB cadets would not have known him as a Cadet Major, (except for Army/TFA administrative purposes) but rather by whatever rank he actually held in the self-contained CLB cadet structure. Am I correct here conijoni? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 1 July , 2009 Share Posted 1 July , 2009 MBrockway did a good job deciphering my explanation. Please read next part carefully. The London Diocesan Church Lads Brigade (founded 1891 for the London Diocese which is London north of the Thames) was NOT the same as the Church Lads Brigade. They were two distinct, separate, completely apart, not affiliated organisations. Okay - the LDCLB and CLB were rival Brigades. This man Montfort was an officer in the LDCLB. Before the 1stWW the LDCLB had approx 180 companies in 24 battalions with 7,000 members. The LDCLB, like the CLB, accepted Cadet Recognition in 1911. Some companies were attached to the County of London TFA and the rest to Middx. Monfort was an officer in the 12th (I think) Bn LDCLB which in the Cadet Force was the 6th London Cadet Battalion. Monfort was appointed Cadet Major on the 16th June 1916. He saw War Service. The LDCLB became the Church Cadet Brigade for the Diocese of London in 1918. In 1919, it amalgamated with the CLB and became the Church Lads Brigade, London Division. From 1909 the diocese also organised the London Diocesan Boy Scout Corps, which was a separate organisation from the Boy Scouts Association. The London Diocese liked to do things on their own terms. See website British Badge Forum ... http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/al...php?albumid=176 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 1 July , 2009 Share Posted 1 July , 2009 Now to Mr CHW Dodgson. He was in the CLB, not the LDCLB. He was an officer in Company 2866, Ludlow Company, part of the 1st Bn, Hereford Regt. (Diocese). He was appointed 2nd Lt 27/8/09 and Captain 24/2/12. These are CLB ranks. The company had RHL Dodgson as Lt. - brother? I do not have records beyond 1913. The Bn was recognised as a Cadet Battalion on 15/7/12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 1 July , 2009 Share Posted 1 July , 2009 Are you ready to be impressed langleyd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 1 July , 2009 Share Posted 1 July , 2009 and more and again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 1 July , 2009 Share Posted 1 July , 2009 again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lansleyd Posted 2 July , 2009 Author Share Posted 2 July , 2009 again TO CONIJONI Deeply grateful to you for the last two posts. Thankyou very much. This is new to studies of this man, Lewis Carroll's nephew, who was evidently a CLB officer from at least 1909. Where does the news article come from ? Which paper ? Do the records of his CLB career come from the NA deposit of CLB records? CHWD's brother was Reginald Henry Lutwidge Dodgson and followed his brother through units. He died in 1918 of illness rather than injuries. If you are interested, you might postulate why CHWD is shown in photographs in KLR uniform - see other chain on Dodgsons. After CLB he became a Captain TFR general list but we don't know what the KLR connection could be. People have suggested he was a KLR territorial but he lived and was based in Ludlow. He definitely was based at Hereford in the RDC Thanks once again and ... well done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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