Battalions of the London Regiment

[shinglma]

Are the Drill Hall Project people aware of these locations? I might drop Dragon a PM with a link to your info about 208-209 Harrow Road for her database.

Mark

Don't know. I thinks so as I first became interested in their whereabouts when some of them were mentioned on the Drill Hall project thread. Unfortunately not a lot survive.

My list of addresses was compiled from Post Office Directories and James' "Regiments". Would have to check how it compares. Its something I planned on putting up on my website (when I get round to doing some more work on the latter).

Regards

Mike S

[MBrockway]

You will find page after page of transfers from the Rifle Brigade to the LRB in the medal rolls as well as the other London battalions that became territorials of the RB with somewell known RB offiers going on to serve with them.

Andy

Andy,

Just out of interest, have you also noticed a lot of transfers from the KRRC into the LRB? Or do the RB dominate the flow?

That might give us a clue as to how strictly the regimental connections were followed, or whether the two regiments treated all the London battalions as a common pool regardless of historic connections.

Do you see where I'm going with that?

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Mark

Don't know. I thinks so as I first became interested in their whereabouts when some of them were mentioned on the Drill Hall project thread. Unfortunately not a lot survive.

My list of addresses was compiled from Post Office Directories and James' "Regiments". Would have to check how it compares. Its something I planned on putting up on my website (when I get round to doing some more work on the latter).

Regards

Mike S

Mike,

When I get my Google Map links all sorted, I'll post them here and you're more than welcome to use them on your website

It's not top of my list at the moment mind!

Cheers,

Mark

[Wienand Drenth]

Hello All,

Mike S went to Kew, and brought some nice bits of information, i.e., AO 250 of 1916. This Army Order gives the definition of Corps for purposes of the Army Act. This is, if I am correct, the Army Order that arranged the affiliation of the battalions of the London Regiment to various Line Regiments.

Of interest is to note that the 5th London is affiliation to ... (including a pause with sounds of drums to increase tension) ...

the King's Royal Rifle Corps. If there is no amendment made to this decision, as was done with respect to the 7th Londons and 18th Londons (London Irish) (the latter battalion was initially given to the Rifle Brigade, but this was amended later and it went to the Royal Irish Rifles), this means that quite a few people, including me, have been copying wrong information. This means that Frederick, of lineage book fame, did postulate the wrong information as well.

(This all if there was no later amendment. As Frederick mentions the amendments for the 7th Londons and the London Irish, it would be strange he would not have mentioned an amendment for the London Rifle Brigade)

AO 49 of 1926, the one from Bridgeman, states that the London Rifle Brigade is to be part of the corps of the Rifle Brigade.

Please find AO 250 of 1916 here

AO 49 of 1926 is located at this site

I hope people are happy with this new information (I am !!!), and that some mysteries have been solved.

Cheers,

Wienand

[mm1916]

I have some original documentation dated 1914 which states that a Colonel Bamford Watson CB VD commanded a

double company raised in Stamford Hill and Shoreditch (Haggerston) and they formed 'A' Company of the 10th (Hackney) Bn in January 1915.

Of the 32 men who were passed fit for overseas, 21 deserted and joined the Royal Naval Division at Falmouth in August 1916.

Three won the MM and two the DCM. I have two of the three MM's and both DCM's in my collection. If you would like further details please feel free to reply

and I will gladly let you know my search fee (starting at £20 + p&p)

[mm1916]

Wienand,

That seems pretty sound logic to me.

My suggestion was purely a guess based on the proximity of the RHQs of the units - QVRs, QWRs and the Kensingtons are probably the closest to Paddington - a lot closer than Hackney anyway - but then I don't know exactly where the Paddington Rifles drilled .

Do you know where the 3rd Londons were based?

Cheers,

Mark

The Paddington Rifles drilled in Paddington, and the 3rd.London Regiment drilled in London

[MBrockway]

... and the 3rd.London Regiment drilled in London

Ah, I see, they drilled in London. Thanks for narrowing it down

Wienand,

The address I'm running with at present for 3/Londons is 21 Edward Street, Hampstead Road NW, but I'm still looking for further corroboration yet.

Edward Street is now Varndell Street, NW1, just west of Euston Station.

Cheers,

Mark

[alkens]

Thanks for this post. If someone was residing in Hatcham (New Cross), would they be automatically placed in D company? Trying to find out what company Drummer AJ Etheridge may have been in. thanks again.

20th (County) - Blackheath and Woolwich: Holly Hedge House, Blackheath (SE13??)

TYB1910: HQ, A, B, C and E Cys at Holly Hedge House, Blackheath, SE; D Coy at New Cross, F and H Coys at Woolwich, G Coy at Catford. Westlake1914 only has Woolwich at second drill station.

[MaxD]

Last post was 3 years ago but hoping this will be picked up! Parts very relevant to my current subject. Attached from 3rd Bn RB to 18th Middx Volunteers from 1892 to 1906, (acting Sergeant Major in 1903) except for 1900 when he went with the City of London Imperial Volunteers to fight the Boer.

We have his records but would love to know more, for instance:

Are there pictures we might find? Their HQ was at 209 Harrow Road (thanks to earlier posts here) (he gives this address in various family docs), was this a drill hall he perhaps had a flat in?). Any pics of the building then?

Subject was Frederick Barrett, posted in as C Sgt 1892.

[MBrockway]

On 31/03/2009 at 16:06, shinglma said:

Wienand

208-209 Harrow Road was successively used by the 18th Middlesex Rifle Volunteers pre-1908, 10th London from 1908 and from 1912 3rd London.

It was at the eastern end of Harrow Road (close to Paddington) between Torquay Street and Portchester Road (next to Royal Oak Station). Harrow Road health centre stands on the site.

Regards

Mike S

 

Have just found a period photograph of the Paddington Rifles HQ in the Harrow Road:with what I think is their drill hall behind.

Apologies for the poor quality.

 

Here's the area in 1896 with the Drill Hall shown by a red marker.

 

Marlborough Street became Torquay Street mentioned by Mike above sometime before 1915, while Lord Hill's Bridge is the north end of Porchester Road.  Royal Oak station can be seen straddling the railway tracks.  Westbourne Terrace is now Bourne Terrace and the housing around Westbourne Park Crescent/Chichester Place is now the open area of Westbourne Green.

 

Map courtesy of old-maps.co.uk

 

 

Mark

 

Edited 21 October , 2016 by MBrockway

[MaxD]

Mark

 

Success, the man was the ggrandfather of a lady with local roots who I haven't been in touch with for a couple of months,  He was, after 13 years service with the Rifle Brigade, posted there as a permanent staff member in 1892, went with the City of London Volunteers to fight in South Africa in 1900 then returned to Paddington, became their Sergeant Major in 1903 and retired after 27 years total in 1906.  Now she will know where he did his thing!

 

Many thanks again

 

Max

 

[MBrockway]

Martin G has alerted me to an inconsistency in my earlier statement that all affiliations between the VF Volunteer Battalions that became the London Regiment and their Regular regiments had been severed in 1908 when the TF was formed and the new London Regiment was established.

 

Martin pointed to this page in the 1913 Monthly Army List, which clearly contradicts this for the Royal Fusilier battalions 1-4/LR:

See here: http://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/pageturner.cfm?id=108016620&mode=fullsize

 

We really need to find the Army Order that was revised by AO 250 of 1916 above (which was the one that re-affiliated the London Regiment TF battalions back to Regular regiments) and check its Schedule.

 

This should show the "Definition of Corps with respect to the Army Act" and thereby the TF to Regular affiliations.

 

From the rubric of AO 250, it looks like it would an AO some time around Mar-Apr 1908.

 

Mark

[MBrockway]

Re the location of the London Regiment battalion headquarters, this is what's in the Jan 1913 Monthly Army List:

[Guest]

The Army Lists post 1908 might provide some idea of the legacy connections between Battalions of the London Regt TF and Regular units. Here is a random snapshop from the Nov 1914 Army List showing the parent regiments of the regular Adjutants serving with the TF Battalions. The old affilitaions still lingered in some battalions. - three RB and six KRRC Adjutants as well as two RF. 

 

There are some small surprises such as 2nd, 4th and 18th Battalions. There seems to have been a small skew towards Irish Regiments (5 of the 26) who clearly had no TF outlets, but oddly the London Irish ended up with an Adjutant from the Queen's Royal West Surrey. Even the Adjutants of the Royal Fusiliers' affiliated 1st - 4th Battalions were not all RF Officers. The 22nd and the 24th (both "Queen's") did not have Adjutant's from the Queens.

 

One can understand the tilt towards RB and KRRC for legacy reasons and the Irish as they had no TF Battalions. The proximity of Surrey and Kent might explain some of the County Regiments however the Yorkshire Regt, Seaforth Hldrs, Sherwood Foresters, DCLI and Border Regt all appaear on the list - regiments with their own TF battalions. MG 

 

Bn  Adjt's Regiment

1     RF

2     Yorkshire Regt

3     RF

4     Leinsters

5     KRRC

6     Leinsters

7     Sherwood Foresters

8     RB

9     KRRC

10   RB

11   RB

12   DCLI

13   Connaught Rangers

14   Cameron Hldrs

15   KRRC

16   KRRC

17   KRRC

18   Queen's Royal West Surrey

19 

20  QORWK

21  KRRC

22  RDF

23  Seaforth Hldrs

24  RF

25  RDF

28  Border

[MBrockway]

Some detail on Kid Kennedy, KRRC, at the start of the War, Adjutant of 21/LR, rapidly becoming its CO ...

Edited 4 January , 2017 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

My posts on Gasper Parish, KRRC, Adjutant of 15/LR at the outbreak of War, then CO of 2nd/15th Londons, and later CO of 1st/15th Londons (the Civil Service Rifles) are more spread out.  If you start at this one and read on, you'll get most of the info.  There are a few posts in other topics covering his grave int. al. He is very well covered in Jill Knight's CSR book.

 

 

Edited 4 January , 2017 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

14 hours ago, QGE said:

The Army Lists post 1908 might provide some idea of the legacy connections between Battalions of the London Regt TF and Regular units. Here is a random snapshop from the Nov 1914 Army List showing the parent regiments of the regular Adjutants serving with the TF Battalions. The old affilitaions still lingered in some battalions. - three RB and six KRRC Adjutants as well as two RF.

 

One can understand the tilt towards RB and KRRC for legacy reasons and the Irish as they had no TF Battalions. The proximity of Surrey and Kent might explain some of the County Regiments however the Yorkshire Regt, Seaforth Hldrs, Sherwood Foresters, DCLI and Border Regt all appaear on the list - regiments with their own TF battalions. MG 

 

 

 

It would be wrong to assume the KRRC and RB adjutants were 'relicts' left in post from before 1908 (and I am not suggesting Martin is assuming this) - IIRC, several of these battalions had 2 or more changes of different Rifles officer adjutants in the period 1908-1916 when they were supposedly unaffiliated.

 

Andy and I have speculated that the KRRC and RB RHQ's managed the peacetime junior officers in both KRRC and RB as a body and actively used these London Regiment TF battalion adjutant posts as excellent training grounds for officers with staff potential.  There is certainly evidence that such officers went on later to command some of these TF battalions/brigades with little of the tensions between Regulars and territorials encountered elsewhere.

 

 

Less apparent from the Army Lists is the fact that the Regular senior SNCO's attached to many of these VF/TF battalions were also KRRC and RB.

 

Mark

 

Edited 4 January , 2017 by MBrockway

[MaxD]

On 1/4/2017 at 01:08, MBrockway said:

Less apparent from the Army Lists is the fact that the Regular senior SNCO's attached to many of these VF/TF battalions were also KRRC and RB.

 

Indeed, you helped me earlier (posts 59 et seq) with Frederick Barrett of 3rd Bn RB who served twice on the PS of the 18th Middlesex Rifle Volunteers once prior to going to South Africa with the City of London Imperial Volunteers and then afterwards, appointed Sergeant Major in 1903 until retirement in 1906.

 

Max