Battalions of the London Regiment

[MBrockway]

Hello Mark,

Apologies for the delay.

My main source is Frederick's magnum opus, The Lineage Book of British Land Forces. I will check one of my early 1920s Army Lists later this evening. Affiliations are listed in there.

As for your source, from when does it date? Not wishing to argue the value of the Bridgeman article, but I can understand regimental historians might tend to be a bit relaxed where is comes to regimental affiliations. So that official and unofficial ones are considered being the same thing. Strictly speaking, all we need to have is the ACI that made the battalions of the London Regiment to form part of this or that corps.

Cheers,

Wienand

Wienand,

Not sure which exact annual volume of The Rifle Brigade Chronicle the Bridgeman article was published in - that's one for Andy to answer!

I agree with you that the Bridgeman article without any corroboration from a specific ACI is not enough to be 100% confident. However Bridgeman does go out of his way to make the point that the LRB had returned to the RB fold after fifty years away with the KRRC (Andy has transcribed his text in the other Topic) - normally I find the errors of regimental historians are more ones of omission.

Like you, both Andy and I had thought that the LRB had affiliated to The Rifle Brigade when the London Regiment affililiations were re-instated in 1916. We were surprised to read Bridgeman's statement that this did not happen until 1926.

The post-war Army Lists should clear this up pretty quickly - let us know what you find.

Cheers,

Mark

[stephen p nunn]

Maldon,

Please can you confirm his full name (Lewsis or Lewis?)

I have him born Langford, enlisted Grove Park, lived Fullbridge, Maldon. Did you get your results from Ancestry online?

He was one of about 15 men who transferred from 1/15th to 1/23rd London in mid 1918 (haven't worked out the exact date of the draft yet). There is quite a batch of 18/19 year olds being posted to 1/23rd Londons from the East Surreys around this timeframe. Unfortunately I don't have copies of the relevant East Surrey medal rolls yet, but it's one of my goals for the next trip to the NA. It's my impression that he wouldn't have even served a day with the East Surreys, but would have been posted to 1/23rd the same day he transferred- but this is a working hypothesis at present.

Best regards,

Matthew

thanks Matthew - I am not very good at typing! It is indeed Lewis - Arthur Lewis CROSS. I agree with your details - Langford, Grove Park, Fullbridge. Although documents indicate Grove Park, Kent, the odd thing is that there is a Grove Park in Langford!

Regards

SPN

Maldon

[Wienand Drenth]

Wienand,

Not sure which exact annual volume of The Rifle Brigade Chronicle the Bridgeman article was published in - that's one for Andy to answer!

I agree with you that the Bridgeman article without any corroboration from a specific ACI is not enough to be 100% confident. However Bridgeman does go out of his way to make the point that the LRB had returned to the RB fold after fifty years away with the KRRC (Andy has transcribed his text in the other Topic) - normally I find the errors of regimental historians are more ones of omission.

Like you, both Andy and I had thought that the LRB had affiliated to The Rifle Brigade when the London Regiment affililiations were re-instated in 1916. We were surprised to read Bridgeman's statement that this did not happen until 1926.

The post-war Army Lists should clear this up pretty quickly - let us know what you find.

Cheers,

Mark

Hello Mark,

Hm, in a 1925 edition of the Army List there hardly any indication of an affiliation between the battalions/regiments of the London Regiments and line regiments. Only the link the Royal Fusiliers and the 1st - 4th Battalions is stated. In a 1930 edition things are as we expect them to be ... I am sorry I sounded a bit to confident about the Army Lists.

I happen to have the Haines booklet, mentioned in the other thread, and the Bridgeman article is reproduced in there. In the section on the 1916 reshuffling I see that he makes an error, oare shortcut, concerning the 10th Bn. He writes "Hackney, late Paddington Rifles". This might confuse the novice reader that the two 10th Bns are related somehow, which is not true. The first 10th Bn was disbanded because of low recruitment figures, and was absorbed into the 3rd Bn. The new 10th Bn was formed much more to the East based on three companies of the 7th Bn, The Essex Regiment.

So still no real answer.

Cheers,

Wienand

[Wienand Drenth]

Dear all,

I posted the query related to the affiliation of the London Rifle Brigade to the Rifle Brigade on the forum of British Empire & Commonwealth Forces (BECForces Website). I would like to share the reply I received, I hope it is found of use.

From 1881-1908, as most of us probably know, all London T.F. battalions were affiliated to regular regiments. The creation of the County of London in 1889 from parts Middlesex, Kent and Surrey disrupted some of the sense of territorial affiliations in the Army. But the creation of the non-regular affiliated London Regiment in 1908 did not completely sever the previous affiliations. When T.F. battalions mobilised in 1914, they drew key "higher-trained" personnel from their pre-existing regular affiliations, usually including the CO and Adjutant. Thus the 15th Londons (Civil Service Rifles) still had their CO and others from the KRRC (and they were actually badged KRRC). The July 1916 affiliations formalised this arrangement, with only 4 of 28 battalions changing their affiliation from what it had been before 1908.

The 5th Londons were not exempt from the 1916 affiliations, but they did change from KRRC to RB.

Despite the 1916 affiliations, the Army List continued to show the London Regiment separately and with no mention anywhere of London T.A. affiliations. Some time between 1920 and 1930 (1926?), the entries for regular regiments began to include a cross reference to the effect that certain London battalions were affiliated, but see the officer listing on the relevant page under London Regiment. It is *possible* that AO 49/1926 cited by Capt. Bridgeman, contained wording that formalised these relationships to a greater degree than in 1916 and specifically directed that the Army List show it. If any members have Army Lists between 1920 and 1930, they might be able to clarify when these cross-references began.

Capt. Bridgeman had personal experience of the 1926 Army Order, but probably no more than hearsay reference to the 1916 affiliations, which he may have then discounted as an "error." This is often the case with Army personnel who are familiar with developments affecting their own career but much less so with the historical "big picture". And once again, this touches on the distortions that consequently happen in regimental history and tradition. Roger Orlando Bridgeman was a young regular RB Lieutenant in 1916 (first commissioned in 1910, Lt. in 1912, and probably paying little or no attention to the Territorials through 1916), but in 1924 he was seconded as Adjutant of the 5th Londons, and that would have formed his later expertise. The fact that he was so assigned in 1924 suggests that the 5th Londons affiliation to the Rifle Brigade did indeed pre-date 1926. But as I said, the nature of the affiliation was probably a semantic nuance that either escaped Bridgeman or those who read his article.

[MBrockway]

I happen to have the Haines booklet, mentioned in the other thread, and the Bridgeman article is reproduced in there. In the section on the 1916 reshuffling I see that he makes an error, or shortcut, concerning the 10th Bn. He writes "Hackney, late Paddington Rifles". This might confuse the novice reader that the two 10th Bns are related somehow, which is not true. The first 10th Bn was disbanded because of low recruitment figures, and was absorbed into the 3rd Bn. The new 10th Bn was formed much more to the East based on three companies of the 7th Bn, The Essex Regiment.

Wienand,

I would definitely classify that as a "shortcut" rather than an error! Knowledge of London's geography would tend to make people realise this was a replacement rather than a re-location, but I do agree it could be confusing.

As you say, the units were entirely separate. It was simply a case of the battalion number being re-used.

Paddington and Hackney are a fair way apart geographically, so I would guess that any men left over from the Paddington Rifles would more likely have transferred to the QVRs, QWRs or the Kensingtons than joined the new 10th Londons at Hackney.

In the earlier Reforms, similar disbandments of some of the less successful volunteer units had occurred.

Bad news about the Army Lists though.

CHeers,

Mark

PS Many thanks for your comprehensive notes on all these London units BTW, I'm still exploring them, but so far it seems an excellent and accurate resource! Greatly appreciated

[MBrockway]

Dear all,

I posted the query related to the affiliation of the London Rifle Brigade to the Rifle Brigade on the forum of British Empire & Commonwealth Forces (BECForces Website). I would like to share the reply I received, I hope it is found of use.

Wienand,

Many thanks for continuing to chase this down - it's proving to be quite fascinating!

On balance there are increasingly doubts about Bridgeman's assertion that the LRB only re-affiliated to the RB in 1926, but I'd say the jury is still "out".

... When T.F. battalions mobilised in 1914, they drew key "higher-trained" personnel from their pre-existing regular affiliations, usually including the CO and Adjutant. Thus the 15th Londons (Civil Service Rifles) still had their CO and others from the KRRC (and they were actually badged KRRC).

... The 5th Londons were not exempt from the 1916 affiliations, but they did change from KRRC to RB.

... Roger Bridgeman ... in 1924 .. was seconded as Adjutant of the 5th Londons, and that would have formed his later expertise. The fact that he was so assigned in 1924 suggests that the 5th Londons affiliation to the Rifle Brigade did indeed pre-date 1926.

Your correspondent on the other Forum certainly sounds well informed on this area, but it is a great shame he doesn't cite any actual reference for his opinion so confidently asserted.

If anything, now I find that Capt Bridgeman was actually the Adjutant of the LRB, that makes me more inclined to believe he is the better authority. I would imagine that the LRB Adjutant in place in 1926 would be the very person who had to implement the detail of a change of regimental affiliation. Knowing the Army, we can be confident that there would have been a lot of paperwork across his desk about this!

Quite frankly I find it incredible that the exact affiliation of a battalion would be regarded as a "semantic nuance" by its own Adjutant!

The Rifle Brigade and the KRRC are both regiments with a great sense of their history and traditions, which were formally, carefully and very deliberately taught to the new recruits. Bridgeman would surely carry this forward into his attachment to the LRB and be sure to get his facts straight? Especially as the Adjutant! And in peacetime.

As regards Bridgeman being a Rifle Brigade man being evidence that the affiliation had in fact reverted away from the KRRC, I put little weight on that. During all the period where the LRB were definitely affiliated to the KRRC they never had a KKRC officer as their CO - but they did have four Rifle Brigade men!

The LRB Adjutant in 1914 was KRRC, though he was wounded in the Salient on 13 May 1915. The LRB Adjutant in 1916 appears to have been Capt Ferdinand Howship Wallis, MC, who began the war as a C.Sgt in the LRB. Whether he was an NCO attached from a regular unit or simply an experienced territorial I have not been able to research. His MIC has a reference to what looks like "RF Roll" so it is possible he might be from a Royal Fusiliers background.

Perhaps your correspondent on the other Forum is not aware how closely linked the KRRC and The Rifle Brigade are? My understanding is that the two regiments would most likely have seen the London territorial units as a common pool of "development" opportunities for promising young officers from both regiments and would have placed such men there regardless of the formal affiliation of the target unit. It certainly seems common for KKRC officers to have attachments with RB-affiliated units and vice versa.

Lastly I understood that the Civil Service Rifles, while affiliated to the KRRC, did not in fact use the KRRC cap badge. I'm not confident about this, but I thought the CSR used a blackened badge showing the three Prince of Wales feathers, viz:

As seen here worn by a 15/LR Corporal in an early war "utility" tunic:

[picture from Paul Reed]

Your man confidently states the CSR "were actually badged KRRC". If he is wrong about that, is his opinion about the LRB affiliation reliable?

Certainly he's in line with what you, Andy, Paul Reed and I all originally thought (i.e. that the LRB went to the RB in 1916) but I'd say Bridgeman's evidence cannot be easily dismissed without some more rigorous corroboration.

Is it possible to get hold of the text of the 1926 Army Order?

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

... so I would guess that any men left over from the Paddington Rifles would more likely have transferred to the QVRs, QWRs or the Kensingtons than joined the new 10th Londons at Hackney.

Wienand,

I just spotted your info that the men from the Paddington Rifles were absorbed by the 3rd Londons - oops!

Cheers,

Mark

[Wienand Drenth]

Wienand,

I just spotted your info that the men from the Paddington Rifles were absorbed by the 3rd Londons - oops!

Cheers,

Mark

Hello Mark,

I don't know how I got to that conclusion by the way.. I think my source was the Regimental history of the Essex Regiment (relevant copies provided by a someone here at the forum). Also checking officers in the several Army Lists helps a little to gain understanding concerning transfer of men. I know that it is not exact, but given the static nature of the TF, and given the fact that officers and men must have been within reasonable distance to be able to attent drills etc, seeing several officers moving, might mean more than a career move.

Cheers,

Wienand

[MBrockway]

Hello Mark,

I don't know how I got to that conclusion by the way.. I think my source was the Regimental history of the Essex Regiment (relevant copies provided by a someone here at the forum). Also checking officers in the several Army Lists helps a little to gain understanding concerning transfer of men. I know that it is not exact, but given the static nature of the TF, and given the fact that officers and men must have been within reasonable distance to be able to attent drills etc, seeing several officers moving, might mean more than a career move.

Cheers,

Wienand

Wienand,

That seems pretty sound logic to me.

My suggestion was purely a guess based on the proximity of the RHQs of the units - QVRs, QWRs and the Kensingtons are probably the closest to Paddington - a lot closer than Hackney anyway - but then I don't know exactly where the Paddington Rifles drilled .

Do you know where the 3rd Londons were based?

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Do you know where the 3rd Londons were based?

Doh! I had that more easily to hand than I thought ...

21 Edward Street, Hampstead Road NW1.

Hampstead Road is up by Euston Station, but I can't find Edward Street - it might have gone in The Blitz.

Certainly reachable from Paddington and about the same as Victoria and Kensington, though quite a bit further from the QVRs in Mayfair.

Cheers,

Mark

[Wienand Drenth]

Wienand,

That seems pretty sound logic to me.

My suggestion was purely a guess based on the proximity of the RHQs of the units - QVRs, QWRs and the Kensingtons are probably the closest to Paddington - a lot closer than Hackney anyway - but then I don't know exactly where the Paddington Rifles drilled .

Do you know where the 3rd Londons were based?

Cheers,

Mark

Hello Mark,

According to my notes, which I sent you, the 10th Londons were located at Harrow Road. But I must admit that my knowledge of London, and especially of all the boroughs, is quite small. Harrow Road is probably a very long en big road, so "Harrow Road" by itself will not tell much. I will check tonight if I have more details from an Army List. The 3rd Londons were at Edward Street, St Pancras, and after 1912 (when the first 10th Londons was gone) they had a drill station at Harrow Road as well.

Cheers,

Wienand

[shinglma]

Hampstead Road is up by Euston Station, but I can't find Edward Street - it might have gone in The Blitz.

Mark

Its possible - the area was badly hit in the Blitz as the post-war housing estates on the west of Hampstead Road bear testimony.

Edward Street is today known as Varndell Street and can be found here.

Regards

Mike S

[shinglma]

Harrow Road is probably a very long en big road, so "Harrow Road" by itself will not tell much. I will check tonight if I have more details from an Army List. The 3rd Londons were at Edward Street, St Pancras, and after 1912 (when the first 10th Londons was gone) they had a drill station at Harrow Road as well.

Wienand

208-209 Harrow Road was successively used by the 18th Middlesex Rifle Volunteers pre-1908, 10th London from 1908 and from 1912 3rd London.

It was at the eastern end of Harrow Road (close to Paddington) between Torquay Street and Portchester Road (next to Royal Oak Station). Harrow Road health centre stands on the site.

Regards

Mike S

[MBrockway]

Wienand

208-209 Harrow Road was successively used by the 18th Middlesex Rifle Volunteers pre-1908, 10th London from 1908 and from 1912 3rd London.

It was at the eastern end of Harrow Road (close to Paddington) between Torquay Street and Portchester Road (next to Royal Oak Station). Harrow Road health centre stands on the site.

Regards

Mike S

That is spooky! I used to live in Blomfield Road about 400m away!

I know the post-war housing in that block between Regent's Park and Euston Station too - used to know all sorts of rat run shortcuts through there because my then girlfriend worked near St Pancras and often had to drop her off by car from Little Venice. The shortcuts saved crawling along the Euston Road.

Course that was before the congestion charge - LOL!

Wienand - I should have thought to consult your notes for the addresses

Cheers,

Mark

Cheers,

Mark

[Wienand Drenth]

Mike,

Thanks for the additional details. I really must study the topography of London and surroundings some day to understand things a bit better.

As for the period the period around 1908, what distance could a man travel using public transportation etc within say one hour? I ask this because I am interested to know how far people lived, those that were in a TF unit of course, from the respective drill halls. Nowadays a distance of several tens of miles is easily covered by car (given no traffic jams), but in those days it must have been much harder.

Mark,

Not all addresses in my notes are very accurate I think, because of lack of knowledge (and laziness). Also, I think that the whole administrative structure of (Greater) London changed a lot, so a spot that once was truly outside (like Camberwell (I guess)) might nowadays be dubbed differently. And for some units I just didn't find more information of course, apart that they are in London.

Cheers,

Wienand

[MBrockway]

Mike,

Thanks for the additional details. I really must study the topography of London and surroundings some day to understand things a bit better.

As for the period the period around 1908, what distance could a man travel using public transportation etc within say one hour? I ask this because I am interested to know how far people lived, those that were in a TF unit of course, from the respective drill halls. Nowadays a distance of several tens of miles is easily covered by car (given no traffic jams), but in those days it must have been much harder.

Mark,

Not all addresses in my notes are very accurate I think, because of lack of knowledge (and laziness). Also, I think that the whole administrative structure of (Greater) London changed a lot, so a spot that once was truly outside (like Camberwell (I guess)) might nowadays be dubbed differently. And for some units I just didn't find more information of course, apart that they are in London.

Cheers,

Wienand

Wienand,

I'm actually working on collating all the London Regiment RHQ addresses now. My primary source is a list from the Regimental Warpath website, which I'll now cross-reference with your excellent notes. With Mike's info on some of the "Lost Streets of London", and some other detective work, I have solved most of the problem addresses - e.g. The Kensingtons at "Irerna Gardens" turned out to be at "Iverna Gardens"!

Incidentally Harrow Road is indeed a long road - it passes through three Post Code Districts - so Mike's input is especially helpful

I'll post the results here on the Forum with some Google Maps links. I'm sure Mike and the other Pals will be able to add extra detail/corrections.

As regards travel times, it's a well known paradox that the average traffic speed in London has remained basically the same for over a century! Public transport may even be slower now! An hour's travel would stretch to most of Inner London. Reading the Sherlock Holmes stories makes one pine for the days when it was a simple matter to flick through Bradshaw and be in South Norwood in next to no time - LOL! Transport was one of the main reasons I avoid working in London nowadays! God help us in the Olympics!

Certainly commuting in from the suburbs was well established by the turn of the century particularly among the middle classes, and much more so than would be typical in a European city. Central London was not a pleasant environment to bring up a family!

The affordibility of transport might be a better guide than the time taken. But then territorials would perhaps be more affluent anyway.

Also whether the men chose to drill close to their work with work colleagues before travelling home (e.g. Civil Service Rifles, Bank of England, Post Office Rifles etc), or to drill with a unit getting home after the daily travel from work. Many of the 1859 Rifle Volunteer units were work-based.

There are also a few traditional psychological travel barriers - e.g. crossing the river, crossing from the West End to the East End - that perhaps played a more subtle influence. Paddington to Hackney for example - Paddington men would probably be more inclined to head S than NE, even though the actual distances might be comparable. It's a bit hard to explain this , but I think it does play a part. Certainly trips around London are much harder than radial trips via the centre.

Mike,

Are the Drill Hall Project people aware of these locations? I might drop Dragon a PM with a link to your info about 208-209 Harrow Road for her database.

Cheers,

Mark

[Wienand Drenth]

Wienand,

I'm actually working on collating all the London Regiment RHQ addresses now. My primary source is a list from the Regimental Warpath website, which I'll now cross-reference with your excellent notes. With Mike's info on some of the "Lost Streets of London", and some other detective work, I have solved most of the problem addresses - e.g. The Kensingtons at "Irerna Gardens" turned out to be at "Iverna Gardens"!

Mark,

If it would be of help, I will check the Territorial Year Book for addresses (I forgot to check the Army List in an earlier post, but I guess the 3rd and 10th Londons is solved) so you have another reference.

Cheers,

Wienand

[MBrockway]

Wienand,

This is my draft version so far ...

1st (City) - Royal Fusiliers: Handel Street, Bloomsbury WC1

2nd (City) - Royal Fusiliers: Tufton Street, Westminster SW1

3rd (City) - Royal Fusiliers: 21 Edward Street, Hampstead Road NW1 (lost in Blitz – now Varndell Street NW1)

(Also at 208-209 Harrow Road, Paddington W2 – see 10/LR (Paddington Rifles))

4th (City) - Royal Fusiliers: Shaftesbury Street, City Road N1

5th (City) - London Rifle Brigade: 130 Bunhill Row EC1

6th (City) - Rifles: 57a Farringdon Road EC1

7th (City) : Sun Street, Finsbury Square EC2

8th (City) - Post Office Rifles: 130 Bunhill Row EC1

9th (County) - Queen Victoria's Rifles: 56 Davis Street, Berkeley Square W1

10th (County) - Paddington Rifles: 208-209 Harrow Road, Paddington W2 (LOST – now Harrow Road Health Centre)

10th (County) - Hackney: 49 The Grove, Hackney (E15??)

11th (County) - Finsbury Rifles: 17 Penton Street, Pentonville N1

12th (County) - The Rangers: Chenies Street, Bedford Square WC1

13th (County) - Kensington: Iverna Gardens, Kensington W8

14th (County) - London Scottish: 59 Buckingham Gate, Westminster SW1

15th (County) - Prince of Wales's Own Civil Service Rifles: Somerset House, Strand WC2

16th (County) - Queen's Westminster Rifles: 58 Buckingham Gate, Westminster SW1

17th (County) - Poplar and Stepney Rifles: 66 Tredegar Road, Bow E3

18th (County) - London Irish Rifles: The Duke of Yorks HQ., Chelsea (SW3??)

19th (County) - St. Pancras: 76 Camden High Street, Camden Town NW1

20th (County) - Blackheath and Woolwich: Holly Hedge House, Blackheath (SE13??)

21st (County) - First Surrey Rifles: Flodden Road, Camberwell SE5

22nd (County) - The Queen's: 2 Jamaica Road, Bermondsey SE1 or SE16

23rd (County) : St. John's Hill, Clapham Junction SW11

24th (County) - The Queen's: 71 New Street, Kennington Park Road SE11

25th (County) - Cyclist: Fulham House, Putney Bridge SW6??

26^th - Honourable Artillery Company: Not formed

27^th - Inns of Court : Not formed

28th (County) - Artist's Rifles: Duke's Road, Euston Road WC1

Cheers,

Mark

[stephen p nunn]

Really pleased that I managed to pick up a 23rd Battalion cap badge today for £7. it is bi-metal with a brass crown and scroll with a silver 7 pointed star and castle. It reads "South Africa 1900-2. 23rd Bn The London Regt".

I assume it is Great War?

I have 2 Maldon men in the 23rd:

Private Arthur Lewis Cross (S/36245 & 45431) KIA 22/8/18 serving with the East Surrey Regiment (as 29120).

Private Ernest John Myall (5775) KIA 16/9/16

Regards

SPN

Maldon

[westkent78]

Really pleased that I managed to pick up a 23rd Battalion cap badge today for £7. it is bi-metal with a brass crown and scroll with a silver 7 pointed star and castle. It reads "South Africa 1900-2. 23rd Bn The London Regt".

I assume it is Great War?

I have 2 Maldon men in the 23rd:

Private Arthur Lewis Cross (S/36245 & 45431) KIA 22/8/18 serving with the East Surrey Regiment (as 29120).

Private Ernest John Myall (5775) KIA 16/9/16

Regards

SPN

Maldon

Myall was formerly 22621 Essex Regt (probably 12th Bn) and transferred to 1/23rd London on 7th June 1916 with about 90 other ex-Essex men, who then went out in a draft on 16th June. I assume you have his SDITGW entry?

As to the badge, sounds right, but I'm no expert on badges. I've seen too many fakes/repros so I've yet to get one myself.

best regards,

Matthew

[stephen p nunn]

Myall was formerly 22621 Essex Regt (probably 12th Bn) and transferred to 1/23rd London on 7th June 1916 with about 90 other ex-Essex men, who then went out in a draft on 16th June. I assume you have his SDITGW entry?

As to the badge, sounds right, but I'm no expert on badges. I've seen too many fakes/repros so I've yet to get one myself.

best regards,

Matthew

Great - thanks for responding Matthew. Yes, knew he was ex-Essex but not the battalion. He was born in White Notley and lived and enlisted in Maldon. He is recorded as a Heybridge man and is on the Thiepval Memorial (pier 9C).

Badge looks real - I trust the dealer concerned.

Regards.

SPN

Maldon

[Wienand Drenth]

Mark,

(apologies for the bad layout)

Abbreviations for references I consulted:

AL1912: Monthly Army List October 1912

AL1913: Monthly Army List August 1913

TYB1910 : Territorial Year Book 1910

Westlake1914: The Territorial Force 1914, compiled by Ray Westlake

1st (City) - Royal Fusiliers: Handel Street, Bloomsbury WC1

TYB1910 and Westlake1914 give additionally two coys at 15 Battersea Square

AL1912 and TYB1910 have HQ of bn at 33 Fitzroy Square, W, in AL1913 it is as you state

2nd (City) - Royal Fusiliers: Tufton Street, Westminster SW1

All refs give number: 9 Tufton Street, Westminster

3rd (City) - Royal Fusiliers: 21 Edward Street, Hampstead Road NW1 (lost in Blitz – now Varndell Street NW1)

(Also at 208-209 Harrow Road, Paddington W2 – see 10/LR (Paddington Rifles))

no difference

4th (City) - Royal Fusiliers: Shaftesbury Street, City Road N1

All refs give number: 112 Shaftesbury Street

5th (City) - London Rifle Brigade: 130 Bunhill Row EC1

no difference

6th (City) - Rifles: 57a Farringdon Road EC1

TBY1910 gives just 57 Farringdon Road

7th (City) : Sun Street, Finsbury Square EC2

All refs give number: 24 Sun Street

TBY1910 and Westlake1914 show additional subunit (two coys) at 36 Elm Grove, Hammersmith

8th (City) - Post Office Rifles: 130 Bunhill Row EC1

no difference

9th (County) - Queen Victoria's Rifles: 56 Davis Street, Berkeley Square W1

no difference

10th (County) - Paddington Rifles: 208-209 Harrow Road, Paddington W2 (LOST – now Harrow Road Health Centre)

TBY1910 says 207-209 Harrow Road

10th (County) - Hackney: 49 The Grove, Hackney (E15??)

AL1913 has 49 The Grove, Hackney, NE

11th (County) - Finsbury Rifles: 17 Penton Street, Pentonville N1

no difference

12th (County) - The Rangers: Chenies Street, Bedford Square WC1

TYB1910 has Chenies Street, Tottenham Court Road

TYB1910 also states that B and G Coys at Gas Light and Coke Company's Work, Beckton, and D Coy at those Company's Work at Nine Elmes have their own armouries and drill grounds.

13th (County) - Kensington: Iverna Gardens, Kensington W8

no difference

14th (County) - London Scottish: 59 Buckingham Gate, Westminster SW1

no difference

15th (County) - Prince of Wales's Own Civil Service Rifles: Somerset House, Strand WC2

no difference. TBY1910 has details on recruiting of coys:

A - Audit office; B - Savings Bank; C - Post Office; D, E - Inland Revenue; F - London County Council; G - Whitehall Offices; H - Admiralty

16th (County) - Queen's Westminster Rifles: 58 Buckingham Gate, Westminster SW1

all refs specify further: Queen's Hall, 58 Buckingham Gate, Westminster

17th (County) - Poplar and Stepney Rifles: 66 Tredegar Road, Bow E3

no difference

18th (County) - London Irish Rifles: The Duke of Yorks HQ., Chelsea (SW3??)

TYB1910 states 2 Duke Street, Adelphi as HQ, with note that HQ is to be re-located at Battersea. All other refs have Duke of York's HQ, Chelsea, SW

19th (County) - St. Pancras: 76 Camden High Street, Camden Town NW1

All refs simply have 76 High Street, Camden Town. TYB1910 also says that bn uses Albany Street Barracks as well, not sure if considered as official out-station

20th (County) - Blackheath and Woolwich: Holly Hedge House, Blackheath (SE13??)

TYB1910: HQ, A, B, C and E Cys at Holly Hedge House, Blackheath, SE; D Coy at New Cross, F and H Coys at Woolwich, G Coy at Catford. Westlake1914 only has Woolwich at second drill station.

21st (County) - First Surrey Rifles: Flodden Road, Camberwell SE5

no difference

22nd (County) - The Queen's: 2 Jamaica Road, Bermondsey SE1 or SE16

no difference

23rd (County) : St. John's Hill, Clapham Junction SW11

all refes give number 27 St John's Hill

24th (County) - The Queen's: 71 New Street, Kennington Park Road SE11

no difference

25th (County) - Cyclist: Fulham House, Putney Bridge SW6??

no difference

28th (County) - Artist's Rifles: Duke's Road, Euston Road WC1

no difference

Hope those few bit help a little.

I have also checked the HQ in the June 1930 Army List. Only 10th Londons seems to have moved to 51, The Grove

Cheers,

Wienand

[MBrockway]

Mark,

(apologies for the bad layout)

Hope those few bit help a little.

Cheers,

Wienand

Wienand - bad layout? Pah - it's a model of clarity and a great help ... particularly the building numbers - thank you very much!

I'll now attempt to collate them and to build Google Map links

Cheers,

Mark

[Wienand Drenth]

Wienand - bad layout? Pah - it's a model of clarity and a great help ... particularly the building numbers - thank you very much!

I'll now attempt to collate them and to build Google Map links

Cheers,

Mark

Hello Mark,

Glad I could be of some help. The map you are compiling would be very valuable. The Territorial Year Book has some details on recruiting areas as well. Would you like to have (and add) those as well? I think Charles Fair did a comparable job on the 19th Londons.

Related to one of you earlier message in this thread on where people drilled (either close to work, or close to home), would some battalions (of the London Regiment in our case) be more like the "close to home" battalions, and others the "close to work"? I guess the Civil Service Rifles were one of the latter, but probably one the battalions from South of the Thames (21st - 24th Londons) would be more like the former? The London Scottish and London Irish recruiting probably in the entire London area?

Regards,

Wienand

[stiletto_33853]

Dear all,

I posted the query related to the affiliation of the London Rifle Brigade to the Rifle Brigade on the forum of British Empire & Commonwealth Forces (BECForces Website). I would like to share the reply I received, I hope it is found of use.

Hi Wienand,

Just catching up with some threads at the moment. The LRB did indeed become a territorial battalion of the Rifle Brigade. Another book by Michael you might want to look up (if you do not have it) is "Gallant Little Terriers" The Bridgman article was in the 1932 Rifle Brigade Chronicle.

You will find page after page of transfers from the Rifle Brigade to the LRB in the medal rolls as well as the other London battalions that became territorials of the RB with somewell known RB offiers going on to serve with them.

Andy