stephen p nunn Posted 19 March , 2009 Share Posted 19 March , 2009 Dear all, I know that many of the Battalions of the London Regiment had associated names; e.g. the 6th were The City of London Rifles. Does anyone know if there are names associated with the 10th., 23rd. and 32nd.? Many thanks SPN Maldon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 19 March , 2009 Share Posted 19 March , 2009 Hi The 10th London are Hackney, 23rd and 32nd didn't have a name as far as I know. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herbie4798 Posted 19 March , 2009 Share Posted 19 March , 2009 Maldon, The 10th were nicknamed the shiny 10th and also called the Hackney Gurkhas/Cockney Gurkhas, hope that helps James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen p nunn Posted 19 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 19 March , 2009 Hi The 10th London are Hackney, 23rd and 32nd didn't have a name as far as I know. Jim Thanks Jim. So would the correct title be "The 10th County of London Battalion, The Hackney Regiment"? (Like The 13th. Kenisington Regiment) Regards SPN Maldon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herbie4798 Posted 19 March , 2009 Share Posted 19 March , 2009 yes, 10th battalion county of london hackney James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen p nunn Posted 19 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 19 March , 2009 Dear all, I know that many of the Battalions of the London Regiment had associated names; e.g. the 6th were The City of London Rifles. Does anyone know if there are names associated with the 10th., 23rd. and 32nd.? Many thanks SPN Maldon Excellent - thanks Jim and James for your helpful responses. Regards SPN Maldon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herbie4798 Posted 19 March , 2009 Share Posted 19 March , 2009 No probs mate, Any other questions on 10th londons ill do me best to answer. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westkent78 Posted 19 March , 2009 Share Posted 19 March , 2009 The 23rd seem not have had an official geographical designation, just plain old "County of London". Haven't quite worked out why yet. However, they were associated with Battersea, and I've seen them nicknamed as the "Battersea Boozers" and the "Old Loyals". Best regards, Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temporary Viking Posted 19 March , 2009 Share Posted 19 March , 2009 According to the to the Website of the Queen's Royal Surrey Regiment here the 23rd Bn The London Regiment “became linked to the East Surreys. The 23rd London Regiment, like most other Volunteer Units had its origins in the Rifle Volunteers raised in 1859 to counter the threat of invasion by Napoleon III and his French forces across the Channel. The 7th Surrey Rifle Corps, raised in Southwark, was affiliated to the 31st and 70th Foot (later The East Surrey Regiment) in the 1870s and in 1880 it absorbed the 26th Surrey Rifle Corps at Battersea. In 1887 the 7th Surrey Rifles became the 4th Volunteer Battalion The East Surrey Regiment, changing their uniforms from green to scarlet, and so titled furnished 13 officers and 235 other ranks for overseas service during the South African War. In 1908, with the formation of the Territorial Force, the Battalion became the 23rd (County of London) Bn The London Regiment, losing for a time its connection with The East Surrey Regiment but regaining it in 1916 when the battalion was made part of the Corps of The East Surrey Regiment but still retaining its London title. Colours were presented to the Battalion by King Edward VII at Windsor on 19th June 1909. Two battalions of the 23rd were found during the First World War for overseas service with a reserve battalion at home. Between the wars both battalions were disbanded but the original battalion was reformed in 1920 as part of the renamed and reorganised Territorial Army. In 1923 it was renamed 23rd London Regiment (The East Surrey Regiment). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 19 March , 2009 Share Posted 19 March , 2009 There's some of the answers here Maldon. Cheers Mike. http://www.1914-1918.net/london.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 20 March , 2009 Share Posted 20 March , 2009 Maldon, 10th Londons were originally the Paddington Rifles based in Paddington Green, but this battalion was disbanded in 1912/1913 and a new 10/LR raised in Hackney, which went on to fight with distinction in the Great War. You might find this Topic useful: London Regiment's former Volunteer Rifle Corps units, Links between LR, KRRC and Rifle Brigade ... although it focusses on the battalions connected to the RB and the KRRC and doesn't cover the Fusiliers, East Surrey, and West Kent battalions in detail. 7th Londons were also called the "shiny" Seventh - their cap badge features a prominent silver "7" on the ball of a brass grenade. Cheers, Mark Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen p nunn Posted 21 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 21 March , 2009 Thanks to all mates who have replied to this thread - brilliant stuff as usual and really helpful. Regards SPN Maldon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen p nunn Posted 21 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 21 March , 2009 No probs mate, Any other questions on 10th londons ill do me best to answer. James Thanks James. I have one Maldon man who served for some of his time in the 10th - Private Arthur Lewsis CROSS. He was born in Langford, Lived at Grove Park, Kent, enlisted at Fullbridge, Maldon. He died (aged 19) on 22/8/18 whilst with the 1/23rd. East Surrey Regiment (as 29120). Best regards. SPN Maldon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herbie4798 Posted 21 March , 2009 Share Posted 21 March , 2009 Heres his mic James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen p nunn Posted 21 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 21 March , 2009 Heres his mic James Thanks James - he had a lot of attachments in such sadly short service didn't he! Regards SPN Maldon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herbie4798 Posted 21 March , 2009 Share Posted 21 March , 2009 He did get about didnt he, A young life cut short. Ill have a dig about and see if I can find anything about his service with the 10th Londons. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 21 March , 2009 Share Posted 21 March , 2009 There's a list of the London battalions on my website which you might find of use: http://www.battlefields1418.com/londons2.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen p nunn Posted 22 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 22 March , 2009 There's a list of the London battalions on my website which you might find of use: http://www.battlefields1418.com/londons2.htm Thanks Paul - good of you to help. Excellent website. Best regards. SPN Maldon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 22 March , 2009 Share Posted 22 March , 2009 There's a list of the London battalions on my website which you might find of use: http://www.battlefields1418.com/londons2.htm Paul, On your website above you have 5th Londons (the London Rifle Brigade) affiliated only to The Rifle Brigade. Could you clarify? I've been digging into these London rifles units and have some confusing and contradictory info. Some of my sources seem to indicate LRB affiliation as follows ... 1859-1873 no formal affiliation 1873-1876 The Rifle Brigade 1876-1908 KRRC 1908-1916 no formal affiliation 1916-1926 KRRC 1926- The Rifle Brigade (its two btns eventually becoming 7th & 8th RB) However I have another source that suggests the LRB was re-affiliated to The Rifle Brigade in 1916. Furthermore while the LRB never had a Commanding Officer drawn from the KRRC, between 1859 and 1915 they did have four CO's drawn from The Rifle Brigade. At the outbreak of war, the 1st Btn Adjutant was an officer from the KRRC though. The LRB also shared its RHQ with the Post Office Rifles who definitely were affiliated to the RB. Can anyone give any clarification on the LRB's affiliations? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wienand Drenth Posted 23 March , 2009 Share Posted 23 March , 2009 Mark, This evening when I am back home from work I will consult my notes and books on the Volunteer Forces and the connection between the Greater London area volunteer corps and their affiliations. An interesting topic is the precedence the various corps held in each regiment, and reshufflings taking place. However, I am not sure about the statement in your source about the affiliation dating from 1873 on is entirely correct. Could you tell me the title of the source? The regimental system as we know it dates from 1881, when the concept of a regimental family was born (regulars, militia, volunteers under the umbrella of a single territorial regiment). True, this was preceded in 1873 by a brigade structure, also related to the depot battalions and awareness for creating regular reserves, in which indeed were a regional grouping of one or two regular regiments of foot, some militia regiments and volunteer corps. However, this should not be confused with the 1881 genesis of the county regiments. I you look into Army Lists of that period, you will find Regulars, Militia and Volunteers are listed separately prior to July 1881, and together after this date. Also, militia regiments had become numbered battalions of the territorial regiment, and the gradually volunteer corps were redesignated as Volunteer Battalion (though some corps were persistent, and kept the origal title of "volunteer rifle corps"). More later today. Best regards, Wienand Paul, On your website above you have 5th Londons (the London Rifle Brigade) affiliated only to The Rifle Brigade. Could you clarify? I've been digging into these London rifles units and have some confusing and contradictory info. Some of my sources seem to indicate LRB affiliation as follows ... 1859-1873 no formal affiliation 1873-1876 The Rifle Brigade 1876-1908 KRRC 1908-1916 no formal affiliation 1916-1926 KRRC 1926- The Rifle Brigade (its two btns eventually becoming 7th & 8th RB) However I have another source that suggests the LRB was re-affiliated to The Rifle Brigade in 1916. Furthermore while the LRB never had a Commanding Officer drawn from the KRRC, between 1859 and 1915 they did have four CO's drawn from The Rifle Brigade. At the outbreak of war, the 1st Btn Adjutant was an officer from the KRRC though. The LRB also shared its RHQ with the Post Office Rifles who definitely were affiliated to the RB. Can anyone give any clarification on the LRB's affiliations? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 23 March , 2009 Share Posted 23 March , 2009 .. However, I am not sure about the statement in your source about the affiliation dating from 1873 on is entirely correct. Could you tell me the title of the source? .. Best regards, Wienand Wienand, The source is courtesy of Andy who referenced an article entitled "Affiliation of Volunteer and Territorial Battalions to The Rifle Brigade" by Captain the Hon. R.C. Bridgeman, M.C. in one of the editions of the Rifle Brigade Chronicle. That article cites Auxiliary and Reserve Forces Circular 22 of 1873. I assume this was part of the ongoing changes started by Cardwell's Regularisation of the Forces Act of 1871, which formalised the many rifle volunteers units into Volunteer Corps and allotted them to Regimental Districts (aka Brigade Districts). The Royal Fusiliers and the Middlesex Regiment were the principal regiments present in Central London, with the East Surreys and the Royal West Kents covering parts of Inner London and some of the suburbs, but with over fifty rifles and other volunteer units in London these regiments would have been overwhelmed. Accordingly additional Regimental Sub-districts 51, 52, 53 and 54 were set up for the London area with the first two allotted to the KRRC and the latter two allotted to The Rifle Brigade. This was on the grounds of shared rifles traditions rather than any geographical connection with London. I think this detail was what Circular 22 covered. You are quite correct in saying the London units did not appear in the Army Lists under the 60th Rifles and The Rifle Brigade until the 1881 Childers Reforms. It was also only then that the London units became formal numbered Volunteer Battalions of the two regiments. See this Topic for more info: London Regiment's former Volunteer Rifle Corps units, Links between LR, KRRC and Rifle Brigade Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wienand Drenth Posted 23 March , 2009 Share Posted 23 March , 2009 Hello Mark, My notes tell me that the 1st London RVC (City of London Rifle Volunteer Brigade) was a volunteer battalion of the King's Royal Rifle Corps between 1881 and 1908. Ranked as 8th initially, becoming 9th in 1883, and ranked as 10th between 1888 and 1889. The title "London Rifle Brigade" originated from 1908 I believe. The subtitle prior to 1908 was an indication that the corps consisted of two battalions. (Must like the volunteers in Edinburgh eventually forming the 4th and 5th Battalions of the Royal Scots. Between 1908 and 1916 there was no affiliation, and in 1916 the battalion became part of the Corps of the Rifle Brigade. After the Second World War the battalion was amalgamated with the Rangers. Sorting out the affiliations and respective precedence of the various Middlesex, London and Tower Hamlets volunteer corps gave me some headaches as well, but somehow the London Rifle Brigade is one of the easier. Other corps switched between the Royal Fusiliers, the Middlesex Regiment, the KRRC and the Rifle Brigade, disturbing the precedence of course. I have put together my notes on the four regiments mentioned. It certainly helps to see all four next to each other. The file is a little to big to upload. Please contact me via PM s you are interested. I hope this clarifies things a little more. Best wishes, Wienand Paul, On your website above you have 5th Londons (the London Rifle Brigade) affiliated only to The Rifle Brigade. Could you clarify? I've been digging into these London rifles units and have some confusing and contradictory info. Some of my sources seem to indicate LRB affiliation as follows ... 1859-1873 no formal affiliation 1873-1876 The Rifle Brigade 1876-1908 KRRC 1908-1916 no formal affiliation 1916-1926 KRRC 1926- The Rifle Brigade (its two btns eventually becoming 7th & 8th RB) However I have another source that suggests the LRB was re-affiliated to The Rifle Brigade in 1916. Furthermore while the LRB never had a Commanding Officer drawn from the KRRC, between 1859 and 1915 they did have four CO's drawn from The Rifle Brigade. At the outbreak of war, the 1st Btn Adjutant was an officer from the KRRC though. The LRB also shared its RHQ with the Post Office Rifles who definitely were affiliated to the RB. Can anyone give any clarification on the LRB's affiliations? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westkent78 Posted 23 March , 2009 Share Posted 23 March , 2009 Thanks James. I have one Maldon man who served for some of his time in the 10th - Private Arthur Lewsis CROSS. He was born in Langford, Lived at Grove Park, Kent, enlisted at Fullbridge, Maldon. He died (aged 19) on 22/8/18 whilst with the 1/23rd. East Surrey Regiment (as 29120). Best regards. SPN Maldon Maldon, Please can you confirm his full name (Lewsis or Lewis?) I have him born Langford, enlisted Grove Park, lived Fullbridge, Maldon. Did you get your results from Ancestry online? He was one of about 15 men who transferred from 1/15th to 1/23rd London in mid 1918 (haven't worked out the exact date of the draft yet). There is quite a batch of 18/19 year olds being posted to 1/23rd Londons from the East Surreys around this timeframe. Unfortunately I don't have copies of the relevant East Surrey medal rolls yet, but it's one of my goals for the next trip to the NA. It's my impression that he wouldn't have even served a day with the East Surreys, but would have been posted to 1/23rd the same day he transferred- but this is a working hypothesis at present. Best regards, Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 24 March , 2009 Share Posted 24 March , 2009 ... and in 1916 the battalion [= London Rifle Brigade] became part of the Corps of the Rifle Brigade. Wienand, That's what Andy and I had thought, but unfortunately it clashes with the Bridgeman article (referenced in my Post above) which has the LRB not returning to The Rifle Brigade until 1926. It is most definite about that. I have a copy of the Short History of London Rifle Brigade published in 1916, which gives very useful historical notes ... but nowhere does it mention the unit's affililiations to any regular regiment! Most frustrating! What is your source for the LRB affiliating to The Rifle Brigade in 1916? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wienand Drenth Posted 25 March , 2009 Share Posted 25 March , 2009 Wienand, That's what Andy and I had thought, but unfortunately it clashes with the Bridgeman article (referenced in my Post above) which has the LRB not returning to The Rifle Brigade until 1926. It is most definite about that. I have a copy of the Short History of London Rifle Brigade published in 1916, which gives very useful historical notes ... but nowhere does it mention the unit's affililiations to any regular regiment! Most frustrating! What is your source for the LRB affiliating to The Rifle Brigade in 1916? Cheers, Mark Hello Mark, Apologies for the delay. My main source is Frederick's magnum opus, The Lineage Book of British Land Forces. I will check one of my early 1920s Army Lists later this evening. Affiliations are listed in there. As for your source, from when does it date? Not wishing to argue the value of the Bridgeman article, but I can understand regimental historians might tend to be a bit relaxed where is comes to regimental affiliations. So that official and unofficial ones are considered being the same thing. Strictly speaking, all we need to have is the ACI that made the battalions of the London Regiment to form part of this or that corps. Cheers, Wienand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now