Paul Reed Posted 6 February , 2009 Share Posted 6 February , 2009 As I checked all the facts for that programme, I hope we did it fairly thoroughly. This was one of many stories we discounted. To give Joe his due, unlike some historians, he did reference all his quotes which made it easier to sort out fact from fiction. This one was drawn from the papers of an officer held at the IWM (I believe it has also been discussed here when JP's book first came out). JP took it at face value, believing an officer could not be wrong, but he was... about the ribbons, the dead he said he saw and their regiment (from memory London Rifle Brigade). What Joe is good at is the American side, but even there he isn't faultless, but then who of us are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 6 February , 2009 Share Posted 6 February , 2009 Paul, you have been categoric that this story is a myth but you haven't said why. I'm not trying to be awkward about this (I don't know anything about the so-called event) but you've not given your reasons for coming to the conclusion that the original source being quoted by Joe was incorrect. Would you mind expanding on what you've said or give a link to it so that this thread is rounded off? At the moment I feel rather up in the air. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 6 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 6 February , 2009 As I checked all the facts for that programme, I hope we did it fairly thoroughly. What Joe is good at is the American side, but even there he isn't faultless, but then who of us are? (Edited quote) Thanks Paul I always like to think the BBC is a quality broadcaster that checks facts and your confirmation is welcome. As you say, let any of us loose with history and a computer and mistakes will be made. We are all human. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 6 February , 2009 Share Posted 6 February , 2009 Paul, you have been categoric that this story is a myth but you haven't said why. I'm not trying to be awkward about this (I don't know anything about the so-called event) but you've not given your reasons for coming to the conclusion that the original source being quoted by Joe was incorrect. Would you mind expanding on what you've said or give a link to it so that this thread is rounded off? At the moment I feel rather up in the air. Keith No problem. JP quotes this story which relates to two men with the Mons Star, lying dead at Mons having been killed on 11th November 1918 'where their war began' (paraphrasing here as I don't have the account in front me). Both men were said to be from the London Rifle Brigade, IIRC. The LRB did not fight at Mons, nor were they in action on 11th November. Of the approx 15/20 men killed in action (the exact number is very difficult to compute as SDGW does not accurately record cause of death or even date) from British and Commonwealth units on 11th November 1918 two men did indeed have the Mons Star, but they were not in the same unit, and neither of them died in Mons itself. In fact the only units that had more than one fatal casualty on 11th November were all in the Royal Naval Division, advancing on the flanks of the Canadians approx south of Mons. Hope that helps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 6 February , 2009 Share Posted 6 February , 2009 Yes, thank you. I'm quite clear about it now and, by closing the thread neatly, it also means anyone else coming across the thread in the future will also be clear about why the event could not have taken place. Thanks again, Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britman Posted 6 February , 2009 Share Posted 6 February , 2009 The 'Clasp and Roses' were issued to living recipients. Clasp only to next of kin as the soldier would not be wearing just the ribbon. Thank you for posting this. My GGF died of wounds and only shows Clasp on his MIC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palicus Posted 11 February , 2009 Share Posted 11 February , 2009 The 'Clasp and Roses' were issued to living recipients. Clasp only to next of kin as the soldier would not be wearing just the ribbon. Hi all, Following on from this - I'm now a little confused... I'm hoping someone can definitively answer why some got the clasp only and some the clasp and roses. My GGF was awarded the 14 star and clasp as part of the 1/13th London Regiment who first manned the front line trenches on 18 November 1914. He survived the war and lived into his seventies. His MIC states a clasp number but makes no reference to roses. I presumed this meant it was clasp only and my guess was because he was in a territorial regiment. My reasoning being that if the rose is for use with the ribbon alone, only regular soldiers would have need of it for use on their regular uniform. Once demobbed, the territorials would have no uniform to place it on, and on those occasions when the medals should be worn they would proudly wear their full medals. When I checked his medal roll at Kew I also copied the full 65 page record of the whole battalion's 14 star entitlement. From this it can be clearly seen that in the first round of applications, clasp numbers 15902 to 15989 were issued between 21st and 30th April 1920. All were defined as "clasp", with no mention of roses, whether issued to KIA's, discharged no longer fit, transferred, commissioned, PoW or demobbed. The same handwriting completes the roll for subsequent applications and issues (c. December 1920 onwards) and does state "clasp and roses" or "C&R" and it seems then only the KIA's were issued clasp only. I guess the use of the simple "clasp" for those first issues could just have been the shorthand for clasp and roses used by the writer at that time. But I never recall seeing a rose with my GGF's medals, though I haven't seen them for some time and it could just have been lost many years before. Can anyone think of any reason why those first issues may have been clasp only? Was the rose a slightly later addition? Or was the problem of differentiation of ribbons alone always foreseen? Any thoughts gratefully received. BTW, I ask as I'm planning on having a replica set of medals made up and also intend having just ribbons, cap badges, photo, etc as part of the display so I want to make sure I get his entitlement absolutely correct. Cheers, Al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Jones Posted 11 February , 2009 Share Posted 11 February , 2009 Hello Al, Territorial or not your GGFather was entitled to the two Roses. They were awarded to all living recipients of the 1914 Star that applied for and got the Clasp. You do raise a couple of interesting points that I do not know the answer to, unfortunately. Hopefully someone with more knowledge will come along and put us wise. Was the need for the Rose realised when the first Clasp's were issued? I do not know. Following on from that was the early Clasps issued without the Roses? Regards Mike Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 11 February , 2009 Share Posted 11 February , 2009 My reasoning being that if the rose is for use with the ribbon alone, only regular soldiers would have need of it for use on their regular uniform. Once demobbed, the territorials would have no uniform to place it on, and on those occasions when the medals should be worn they would proudly wear their full medals. The Territorial Force was not disbanded in 1919, it continued to serve and continues to serve to this day. Before the introduction of the 1914 clasp or the dispatch of most Stars, rules were introduced for war service to count double for qualification towards the Territorial Force Efficiency Medal. So the necessity for Territorials to were medals or ribbons only remained. Additionally, I recall seeing photos of men in mufti wearing ribbons only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palicus Posted 12 February , 2009 Share Posted 12 February , 2009 Thanks Mike, When I prepare the replicas I will now definitely add the rose to the ribbon only set. Thanks Per Ardua, Yes, I take your points. Please forgive my ignorance. I guess I was thinking that the territorials who swelled the ranks by joining at the outbreak of war would only be a part of the force for the duration of the hostilities. But I imagine all fit personnel were put into reserve after the conflict whether volunteers or conscripts. If anyone can shed any light on whether the rose was instituted a little later then the clasp please let us know. cheers, Al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Jones Posted 12 February , 2009 Share Posted 12 February , 2009 Morning Al, It is through this type of exchange of views and knowledge that we can all learn. All thanks to this marvelous FORUM. I am now checking through all my records for any pointers. I do have all the 1914 Star awards to Worcestershire soldiers. I have already found one man George Newsholme 4506. He was awarded his Clasp and Roses in September 1938 at the age of 58 ! His Medal Index Card and Pension records can be viewed on Ancestry. Regards Mike Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 12 February , 2009 Share Posted 12 February , 2009 I fully accept the point that the TF, as an organisation, was not disbanded at the end of hostilities but there seems to be a void of information concerning its "life" in the immediate post War period. The available evidence I have read, is that the TF Battalions were quickly reduced to cadre strength in France with these cadres returning to their home towns in the first half of 1919 to be received with full honours.What happened next?Did the permanent staff immediately start to recruit and arrange drill nights or did the organisation lie fallow for a period? The reason I ask.Like many I have two 1914 Stars to casualties who,had they lived would have been entitled to claim the Clasp and Roses(whether both,as casualties, or merely the Clasp,is open to debate),we have discussed their issue many times i.e. automatically,by application either by the man or his family on his behalf or by nomination by his Battalion.It is the last suggestion I am having trouble with.Were there any permanent staff (or staff at all) in the TF Battalions, in the immediate period after the War, to undertake administrative functions relating the the Battalion's War service? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
certacito79 Posted 12 February , 2009 Share Posted 12 February , 2009 Hi Chaps I know this is about a specific soldier but according to his MIC he qualified for the 1916 star!!! ( I know, an error on behalf of some civil servant) the date he entered theatre was 18/7/1914. The war diary has the Regiment underfire a lot (Am researching the history of the Lancers during the war and have created a database of everyone that served with the 16th) This leads me to the question I Have ( sorry about the long winded way of getting there) having seen an awful lot of MIC the majority of men that landed on 18/8/1914 have the 14 star with clasps and roses. A photo I have of my G grandad shows him on leave before he transferred to the Tank with his MM & Bar and 1914 star, but this does not match the MIC. Does this occur regularly with the MIC? Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
certacito79 Posted 12 February , 2009 Share Posted 12 February , 2009 and the photo showing rossette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 12 February , 2009 Share Posted 12 February , 2009 he qualified for the 1916 star!!! ... but this does not match the MIC. Does this occur regularly with the MIC? Typos happen! Which part doesn't match his MIC? The MM would not necessarily appear on his campaign medal MIC. If he qualified for the 1914 Star there should be a MIC for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 12 February , 2009 Share Posted 12 February , 2009 his Clasp and Roses in September 1938 Around the time of the Munich crisis, did he volunteer for WW2 service? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 12 February , 2009 Share Posted 12 February , 2009 The available evidence I have read, is that the TF Battalions were quickly reduced to cadre strength in France with these cadres returning to their home towns in the first half of 1919 to be received with full honours.What happened next?Did the permanent staff immediately start to recruit and arrange drill nights or did the organisation lie fallow for a period? The reason I ask.Like many I have two 1914 Stars to casualties who,had they lived would have been entitled to claim the Clasp and Roses(whether both,as casualties, or merely the Clasp,is open to debate),we have discussed their issue many times i.e. automatically,by application either by the man or his family on his behalf or by nomination by his Battalion.It is the last suggestion I am having trouble with.Were there any permanent staff (or staff at all) in the TF Battalions, in the immediate period after the War, to undertake administrative functions relating the the Battalion's War service? George George, as you say you raise this subject regularly. Without a time machine or the ability to talk to the men responsible: you are never going to know why they didn't apply for those clasps. Not only the TF Battalions were quickly reduced to cadre strength in 1919, the entire army of millions of men was reduced in size in months and before the peace had been signed. All the paperwork had to be processed by hand by some harrassed clerks; they like those around them, they were suffering post traumatic stress greater than any before or since. During this process was when the bar was introduced. The wholesale failure to issue them did not only apply to the TF battalions, I have previously mentioned that regular battalions also seemed to have a variable record for issuing them. The RN & RM issuing process also seems problematic, with those who died rarely getting the bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 12 February , 2009 Share Posted 12 February , 2009 Ard, I appreciate I keep raising the old hoary chestnut which will never be resolved. But does anyone know what happened i.e. were the TF Battalions immediately reconstituted in 1919 or was there a time delay? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 13 February , 2009 Share Posted 13 February , 2009 Have you read the Army List? That should show whether there were any officers allocated to Territorial battalions even if the one you are particularly interested in was disbanded. On a previous occasion we discussed the various Efficiency Medals. The criteria for awarding them all included the stipulation that there should be no break of service. If all TF Battalions had been disolved (what is your evidence for that) then none could have been awarded between 1919 and 1931. In which case there would not have been the need to introduce a new medal in 1921. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 13 February , 2009 Share Posted 13 February , 2009 can I add that it is a campaign medal, not a decoration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 13 February , 2009 Share Posted 13 February , 2009 Ard, I suppose in a way that's what I'm trying to determine,not decoration related. The particular Battalion I am interested in returned home in Cadre strength in April 1919.It's C.O. had been demobbed before then and from a family story only one man was on parade who had left with the Battalion in 1914.This seems to be the tale in other TF Battalions. Did the Cadres comprise Men who had a TF commitment?Did men who had been TF,and suffered the indignities of War, been wounded,demobbed etc,immediately turn up for the next arranged drill night, or did the Battalions start again from scratch,bearing in mind the Shire Battalions had Companies in different locations so some Companies would be very depleted of existing TF men? I accept there must have been some ongoing organization in place and appreciate it would not answer my particular question so I only ask these for general interest. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodge Dowson Posted 13 February , 2009 Share Posted 13 February , 2009 Here is my Grandfather's trio for comparison. They're as he left them to me and in desperate need of a clean. I must research the best way to do it before I try and mount them in a frame. Keith Don't clean them it takes years to get a good tone or patina on medals - If you are tempted warm water and soap with will take out surface dirt - most cleaning agents are acidic and the finish only lasts a short time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 13 February , 2009 Share Posted 13 February , 2009 Thanks, Rodge. I have no intention of doing anything that might damage them in any way but they don't half look grubby. I'm in no rush but I think I might try a little gentle work with a tooth-brush and some soapy water before I mount them. I thoroughly agree with you that patina is preferable to excessive cleanliness. I have an 1870s Vienna regulator wall-clock that was a wedding present to him and my Grandmother from her employer. It needed a service a couple of years ago and I was asked if I wanted its face, weights and pendulum-bob re-gilding. I declined, saying it wouldn't be the same afterwards and I wanted it to stay as I remembered it in my childhood. The horologist agreed and said an 19th century clock should look like it was over a hundred years old, not made yesterday, but a lot of people have the restoration done. Interestingly, when he brought the clock back he asked "Did your grandfather smoke St Bruno?" My chin hit the floor and I asked how he knoew. It turned out his grandfather also smoked it and he could smell the aroma in the clock's mechanism as he dismantled it. It sat above his chair for many, many years so it must have been well pickled... Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 15 February , 2009 Share Posted 15 February , 2009 most cleaning agents are acidic and the finish only lasts a short time. Not only that but most wear away the detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 15 February , 2009 Share Posted 15 February , 2009 can I add that it is a campaign medal, not a decoration? Yes, it's about time one of us did! To be fair the original correspondence and draft Army Orders refer to it as a decoration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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