sanctuary wood trenches how real?

[docchippy]

I have only made one visit to the sanctaury wood museum and don't plan to again. Aside from the cold commercialism and odour of cynical decay I am dubious about the legitimacy of the trenches themselves. Can they be pinned down on trench maps or were they dug in the 1920s to meet the demand of battlefield pilgrims at this time?

Neil

[Marco]

1920's?!

Regards,

Marco

[Paul Reed]

They are no more or less 'real' than similar trench systems one can see at Avril Williams in Auchonvillers, at Notre Dame de Lorette, Le Tommy's bar (which don't claim to be 'real' anyway, although I have overheard some 'tour guides' telling school groups they are) - all of which are there for one reason only - commercialism. There is nothing wrong with that, because when people come to the WF they want to see trenches; just as those who returned in the 20s did. But let's not single one out, when others are just the same.

We all have our thoughts about Hill 62, but the trenches do match up with contemporary trench maps... that they have been worked on and added to is undeniable, because otherwise they would have probably collapsed.

As many members of this forum will testify, some of the best trench systems in a more 'real' conditon are to be found on the French front in places like the Tranchee de la Soif, for example, and on some of the French army live-fire ranges on the Tete de Moronvillers in the Champagne... not that I have ever been there, of course...

[bkristof]

The hill 62 trenches are nothing else but fraude for big money.

Living near to it i know for shure they are dug in the 1950's !!!!

They are even in the wrong direction !!!

The only real threnches in flanders are at Diksmuide (Dixmude) the trench of death, De Dodengang. AND recently restored: the trenches at Bayernwald.

Kroonaert wood near Wijtschate (Whitesheet).

You can get info from the Zonnebeke museum our touristic bureau: www.zonnebeke.be

i Hope i helped,

kristof

[Jim Gordon]

Does the blatant pandering to commercialism apparently so evident at Hill 62 extend to the visible trench system at Newfoundland Park ?

Regards

Jim Gordon

[Borden Battery]

In Canada at the long-forgotten Camp Hughes [formerly Camp Sewell and not to be confused with the current Camp Shilo] in western Manitoba there still exists the original battalion-sized training trench system used to train a large number of western Canadian battalions in 1916 and 1917 in role-playing scenarios.

The trenches are located in the middle of a community pasture used for grazing cattle from the district.

Off to the side is a small, forgotten cemetary for the soldiers killed in training accidents or died of disease.

In keeping with the situation in France and Belgium, the "German" trenches are up on the hill.

So, there are at least some original training trenches from the Great War still in existance. I was at the site about 18 months ago.

[Broznitsky]

BB, did you happen to snap any pictures of the trenches you could post ?

Peter in Vancouver

[markinbelfast]

Was there any actual trenches in Thiepval wood?.I remember seeing a sort zig zag pattern.

[andigger]

I recall when I was at Hill 62 there was a running hose pipe at one end of the trench to simulate the water filled conditions. It might have been believeable if it wasn't 90 degrees and dry as a bone otherwise.

Harsh statements and commercialism aside recreating the trenchs has great value, even if they are not real, they give the visitor a visual concpetion of what they have heard about for so many years.

I am not sure that perserving trenchs is all that hard anyway. There are several earthen works in this area from the War of Northern Aggression (aka US civil war ) Both trenches and breastworks. Several are in such remote locations that there is no commercial value to their preservation. That leads me to believe that left undisturbed trenchs can last in some form for quite some time.

[Borden Battery]

For those who inquired, here is the URL of the Camp Hughes website:

http://www.taniwha.mb.ca/MHSMb/hughes/hughes.html

[salientpoints]

We all have our thoughts about Hill 62, but the trenches do match up with contemporary trench maps.

- Paul Reed

The hill 62 trenches are nothing else but fraude for big money.

Living near to it i know for shure they are dug in the 1950's !!!!

They are even in the wrong direction !!!

The only real threnches in flanders are at Diksmuide (Dixmude) the trench of death, De Dodengang. AND recently restored: the trenches at Bayernwald.

Kroonaert wood near Wijtschate (Whitesheet).

You can get info from the Zonnebeke museum our touristic bureau: www.zonnebeke.be

- bkristof

OK so who is right? All the pen & sword titles including Holt's Bible claim this is the only trench museum still run by the same family, the Schier's, and is based on trenches that were part of the Vince Street and Jam Row complex dug in 1916.

To quote 'the trenches that are now on view date more or less from that time, as do the two tunnels. One must not be misled by the remnants of the trenches that are on view now; this is only a very small part of a most complex arrangement'.

Given these facts surely the position and arrangement are therefore real, it is simply the upkeep of them that makes them 'fraudulent' as they are not made with concrete sandbags?

Kristof you seem to have missed 'the yorkshire trench & dugout' near Boezinge?

- Or are these all FACTOIDS...?

Ryan

[Jacky Platteeuw]

I hope (fingers crossed) that beneath you can find a picture with publicity for 'Hill 62' dating from the mid to late 20ies. I just giving this as information not as a kind of publicity for the site. I do have the same concerns already expressed in different postings. I agree with Paul and Ryan's view.

[salientpoints]

Thats a great picture Jacky! shame they are not 'preserved' like that now.

Even so, if they were we would not be walking in them but walking above them on a suspended walkway no doubt under a glass bubble...

Ryan

[bkristof]

Look, i was maybe to radical it was ALL fraude.

But gaining money was the reason who made the trenches. That is what makes me sad.

I am almost shure the direction is even not correct. I am really interested in some sort of proof that they are indeed based on historic trenches.

But they are so rebuild and changed they only give a trench impression, who is indeed of some value, but it are not the same trenches like in 1920...

But the concrete floor in the trenches and the concrete tunnels are not realistic.

About the yorkshire trench: It is great hat they tried to restore an original trench, but unfortunaly they made a mistake with placing the sandbags from top to bottom and in concrete. As re-enactor i studied the trenches of 1916 -1918 and the A- frame trench. The yorkshire trench is too small because they putted the sandbags at the inside of the A - frame, it has to be on the outside....

But it is a correct historical spot.

thanks for all responses,

kristof

[Bert Heyvaert]

I said this before, I think the Hill 62 museum is a splendid site. It is a true remnant of post-war battlefield tourism, and still breaths this very atmosphere. There must have been hundreds of places like this all over the front, few remain.

As someone who's interested in battlefield tourism in the early years, I find Hill 62 truely fascinating. The owner also gives you this 'You're a tourist and I'm just trying to make a living' -feeling. People may not like this very much, but I'm shure this is the way most owners felt in the 1920's and 1930's.

This may sound strange, but I can't help finding this a bit fascinating.

As a historical reconstruction, well I don't know enough about trench building to give an opinion about this. But it has this undefinable 'atmosphere' over it, especially on a rainy day. An atmosphere you don't have at Yorkshire trench, although this site is the only one I visited that really gave me this claustrophobic feeling. Struggling with two americans to get past each other in the trench made me wonder how fully equiped soldiers handled these situations during the war. Generally I think that the diggers did a great job there. A truely well-presented site.

Bert.

[Captain Chavasse]

I go to Belgium about 4 times a year, usually taking a first timer with me. We always go to Sanctuary wood museum, and i never tire of it. Real or not, the trenches do give people an idea of what they were like. That and the 3D pictures are worth the entrance fee. The only thing i find offensive are the owners feet!

[ypresman]

The only thing i find offensive are the owners feet!

The owners FEES! more like it. I go there 6 or 7 times a year, never paid the same 'fee' twice!!

[bkristof]

I never will say it is forbiden to go there! Why should i.

You asked are they real, i gave an answer.

The photo's are indeed very interesting, like the one with the horse in the tree...

About the owner? Well he is re-enacting Neanderthaler LOL

But there is an alternative now: Bayernwald at Wijtschate, Whitesheet: REAL restored trenches AND FREE, but german trenches...

[MartinWills]

I go to Belgium about 4 times a year, usually taking a first timer with me. We always go to Sanctuary wood museum, and i never tire of it. Real or not, the trenches do give people an idea of what they were like.

I'm not one who is keen on the place but I do think the trenches there give visitors, both young and old, some feeling for what great war trenches may have been like. Lots of mud, slippery and wet, far from pleasant and often crude in their nature with plenty of junk lying about. The wear of the myriads of visitors probably recreates much of the wear of war. Just think whether you would like to live in them for days at a time.

I have just been reading a detailed contemporary account of great war trenches and there are constant references to rain and the chalk beinng slippery and then occasionally drying out.

I certainly think it gives a better impression of what the soldiers had to endure than other sites where nature has healed the land (Vimy; Newfoundland Park etc.) but to regard it as both authentic and original is to stretch the imagination. The place is a fact of life and it has it's pros & cons.

I simply prefer to say, well, there it is; read into it what you may but treat with a certain amount of caution.

[stevew]

Real or not, the trenches do give people an idea of what they were like. That and the 3D pictures are worth the entrance fee. The only thing i find offensive are the owners feet!

I agree with the Captain..............

[Tim Godden]

Hi All,

Whether the Trenches at Hill 62 are original or not is by the by. I have taken school parties round the battlefields and it is the only place that these kids get to go on the tour that gets them muddy. Yes the trenches are re-dug and the water is pumped in and the craters are added on a whim, but they are still there. Since most other trenches have gone, or are tame looking mounds of grass these provide a slight insight into what it was like and really provoke interest.

When taking a kid round these places they do not care if they are oiginal trenches, if they are facing the right direction...etc...they want to know, did they really have to live in things like this?

If something can make the younger generations stop for just a moment and think about what their forefathers went through then it is alright in my book...regardless of anyones feet!

All the best,

Tim

[Max]

I have never been to Sanctuary Wood Museum so I can't really comment about the reality or otherwise of the trench "system" there. I do think that with the advanced state of technology that we have at our disposal it would be a fairly simple task to recreate accurately the conditions of trenchlife (smells etc) under museum conditions. Heavy bombardments could be "virtually" created to allow people to experience what it would have been like to survive in these horrific conditions.

At the back of my mind I have the thought that maybe it would be best to let the earth reclaim what trenches still exist in its own good time. We can learn virtually nothing from fragments of trench lines that are extant in their "original" form as they are taken completely out of the context of the time.

Andy

[Tim Godden]

Whilst simulated trenches do work to an extent, in that you can put other displays around them you cannot get away from the fact that they are 'fake'. Simulated trenches, like that at the IWM, both the permanent trench and one they used for 'The Trench Exhibition', or the outdoor trench at the Stafforshires Museum at Litchfield, miss out on one big thing, they are not there! They are also stagnant, any smell there is fake and people know it. There is an excitement about going into 'real' trenches because they move around you, your feet squelch when it is wet, which it always is , the smells are not computer generated, it is live. At Sanctuary Wood they are there too, which makes a real difference. From an educational point of view one walk through those trenches does more than any number of books, and makes going to all the cemeteries far more poignant

I think it would be a great shame to let what few trenches are left disappear forever. They are, afterall, the most fitting memorial.

All the very best,

Tim

[CROONAERT]

OK so who is right? All the pen & sword titles including Holt's Bible claim this is the only trench museum still run by the same family, the Schier's, and is based on trenches that were part of the Vince Street and Jam Row complex dug in 1916.

Wasn't "Jam Row" actually the British name of a German communications trench that intersected with "Jackdaw Trench" opposite and slightly north of those depicted in the Sanctuary Wood museum? I think that this is a factoid (I like that word! ) laid down in R.Coombs' "Before Endeavours Fade" and believed ever since.

Anyway, that's nit-picking!

Kristof, - I think that those at SW are based on the real thing (names unknown to me), especially if you look at the map illustrated below, from late 1917. The yellow circle encompasses the museum and immediate surroundings. British trenches in red.

dave.

[CROONAERT]

Wasn't "Jam Row" actually the British name of a German communications trench that intersected with "Jackdaw Trench" opposite and slightly north of those depicted in the Sanctuary Wood museum?  I think that this is a factoid (I like that word! ) laid down in R.Coombs' "Before Endeavours Fade" and believed ever since.

...Just to illustrate my point. Yellow circle is ,again, the rough locale of the museum. (British trenches in blue this time)

dave.