sanctuary wood trenches how real?

[bkristof]

Hi,

i am glad i am not the black sheep by saying my opinion.

Thank Aurel for the understanding. Sad that historical items are under concrete...

Also i know much people take us re-enactors not serious. That is normal because there were indeed a few "cowboys" in Flanders who said they were WW1 re-enactors. But with bad uniforms and shouting, fooling and doing stupid.

We try to be historical correct + well informed + also we are all researchers of WW1.

Our living history is not about ourself to be in the picture. It is our way to remember the horror of WW1

i hope this forum showed all we are not the "cowboy" style re-enactors.

And we hope to show it to the people at the Zonnebeke museum opening on 24-25 april 2004.

thx,

kristof

[bkristof]

the concrete frames are not commercially available, and were probably specially cast by an RE (or Canadian, more likely) Tunnelling Company...the answer to this will lie in PRO or RE Library.

Sorry pal,

i was very common i belgium to find those concrete panels in the '50's. People even made them theirself (my grandad did so...).

If you are in the area look to some sheds made by farmers in these kind of concrete plates..

You will be amazed what the flemish make in concrete (i even now an artist who is using it for his statues), even our roads are sometimes in concrete. I think it was the cheapest way to build something after a war (ww1 and ww2).

greets,

kristof

[Jacky Platteeuw]

I think this discussion is going the wrong way.

May I remind the members of this forum that the way the discussion is evolving lead to the decline and virtual disappearance of the WFA discussion forum. Indeed the personnal attacks were the direct reason to finish the WFA Df as we knew it: open, to the point as this DF is now. I think nobody would like to see the same end to this forum.

So I ask publicly if the moderators or Chris would consider to end this thread here and now before it gets out of hand and becomes very nasty.

Jacky

[bkristof]

are there personal attacks?

jacky i think you are wrong.

We just have a very good discussion. Some small misunderstandings, but we are all on the same side eventualy.

why close it?

you don't have to be affraid we will kill eachother or play dirty...

[bkristof]

Sandbags: I've been there a month ago and they weren't there (yet). Have they been placed recently?

they are there 1 1/2 week now....

[Jacky Platteeuw]

(tjee, I wonder if Mr Chielens has something to do with this  )(just like he ruined the Ypres memorial museum, and turned it into Flanders Fields Museum, probably the worst museum on the Western Front)(yes, even worse than the relic room of Sanctuary wood museum).

May I ask what you call this ?

Jacky

[Paul Reed]

I am with Jacky on this one - the tone of this is getting nasty in places. Some of the comments have also gone right over my head, and I struggle to work out the meaning behind them. Friendly debate is fine; but some of this doesn't sound too friendly.

[Marco]

I have to agree with Kristof. No personal attacks were made, just people exchanging views and one person providing some background information which clarifies the thread. My advice to Jacky is if you can't stand it don't read it. Like with TV, there is an off switch. No use in robbing others of their fun/hobby/opinion.

Finding IFF crap is a personal on-topic opinion, which I happen to share. But it is just that: an opinion. If we were to comment on his dress sense or the like than you would be right.

Regards,

Marco

[Somme1916]

Kristof & Marco claim no foul but as Paul said there does seem to be some behind the scenes comments that relate to things that have gone on or are going in Ypres. Many of us already know some of the infamous issues that have occurred and they don't need to be retold here! Lets try to steer clear of such things.

Marco,

I must say your "advice" to Jacky was rude. Please be civil, we don't want things to degenerate as others have mentioned do we mate?

Jon

[Alison Arnold]

Thanks Jon,

You have said it all for me.

Please keep the tone civil.

Ali

[Marco]

I must say your "advice" to Jacky was rude

That you may say. I disagree completly with you but will defend your right to say it. Retelling stories is what history is about and others should benifit from that info as well. Keeping your mouth shut and hoping it all goes away is not my style. Cutting discussions down on the request of some individuals I find rude. The reason for the demise of the WFA forum was just that b.t.w. (and an organisation that would not have such stuff on their website, which is their good right). And for this forum? As Chris once explained to us this forum is not a democracy, he is lord-and-ruler (my words) and I await his descision in/with? intrepitation....

(can someone help me down from the soapbox?)

Regards,

Marco

[bkristof]

I did not leave the Yorkshire trench or something else out on purpose.

I hate the "politics" and claim and honour wars about historical sites.

I helped ABAC with the yzertoren dug out.the reconstruction in the tower, as you know, marco.

I helped the diggers, indirectly, to give a friend some relics that he gave them to put in their exhibition about the Boesinge site.

I am helping the Zonnebeke museum.

I am supporting the Bayernwald project, who is ABAF.

So... I don't think you can say i am choosing sides.

I am doing living history, and i like to do every effort to remeber the fallen and the veterans. Sometimes people forget why they are doing it because of, what i call, politics. There are offcourse also some "bad" guys, who have no good aim, just themself.

i hope it is cleared up with this...

i quote myself, again LOL Was this not clear enough? sorry then.

i am not here to start trouble. Or to insult or blaim someone.

If i did, it is certainly a misinterpretation. Sorry to all who think i insulted them.

wasn't i polite enough?

Marco, please be carefull with what you say, i don't like the tone too.

But everybody must be free to say or think what he wants.

Just go back to the topic and stop writing about personal things...

my excuses to all if my writing started a problem. I NEVER wanted to do that.

i am a rookie so, why should i.

and i can repeat it 1000 times: i have NO buisness with problems in the salient. I am a living historian (is that correct?) or re-enactor.

history is what is interesting me and the respect and remembrance to all who fought and died during WW1.

I think some of those men should be very diapointed to see a fight about them on a forum...

greets,

kristof

[Max]

Some of the comments have also gone right over my head, and I struggle to work out the meaning behind them.

Paul, with the greatest respect, if the comments have gone over your head how do you know that they are meant to be nasty?

I am just marvelling at the ability of Belgians/French to discuss matters that concern them in what is near perfect English. It puts us Brits to shame.

[Somme1916]

That you may say. I disagree completly with you but will defend your right to say it.

(can someone help me down from the soapbox?)

Regards,

Marco

Like wise Marco, your sounding like an American.

Here's my hand mate step on down.

Jon

[Aurel Sercu]

I too regret the turn that this thread threatens (or better, a few postings ago : threatened) to take. I had some comments in store on someone else's comments on the Yorkshire Trench (purely technical), but I'd rather quit here, with the exception of this posting.

I know, it was only the "humble opinion" of someone who, "if he offended someone, didn't mean too". But I thought this sounded a bit cheap, and I thought I detected some smell of something close to hate, more than just an opinion...

Of course I can be wrong.

Aurel

[Somme1916]

Oh have we strayed from the thread topic on this one. We must be careful or the Thread Police will write us a citation.

So we were talking about the reconstructed trenches in the Ypres area. Does anyone know any original trench remains in the salient that have not been redug. Something akin to what remains in the Newfoundland Park or in the woods along the Somme and at Verdun and other such places?

Jon

[bkristof]

And what about me?

Am I rude? impolite? agressive?

if so i better measure every word i say. Because i just wanted to give my opinion.

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelp,

mayday mayday!

[Somme1916]

And what about me?

Am I rude? impolite? agressive?

if so i better measure every word i say. Because i just wanted to give my opinion.

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelp,

mayday mayday!

No I don't thinks so and in my opinion Marco was only rude in that one line to Jacky but he and I agree to disagree and that is all right by me. Free speech is a must. No worries, we seem to be getting level again.

So about those trenches? Does anyone know where I can find some in the Salient that are 85 plus years old i.e. left as they were to fill themselves in?

[bkristof]

Well Jon,

there are some parts of the Raversijde domain at the Belgian coast,near Ostend.

They are mixed with WW2 Atlantic Wall trenches. But they are (for a part) original WW1 trenches, made in concrete!!! the germans used this technique because of the sand. Unfortunally i am not able to tell what is WW1 and what is WW2 for sure...

Greets,

kristof

[Marco]

Thanks for the hand Jon.

Regards,

Marco

[Somme1916]

My pleasure, it happens to us all.

Cheers,

Jon

[bkristof]

We are all thinking too much.

More acts, less thinking too much.

Try to not alway thinking the worst about critics or comments.

I think that is the spirit to keep this forum alive.

[mebu]

Thanks, Mr Kristoff.

Yes, I do know about concrete roads and sheds. These are not the same as engineered mining frames, which have obviously been successful. My point was that the Canadian Tunnellers, who were driving a number of tunnels (Tor Top Tunnels, Jackdaw Tunnel, Hedge St Tunnel, Jasper Tunnel, Birdcage B3 and B4 series, Canada Street Tunnel, Border Lane Tunnel, amongst others in the Sanctuary Wood/Hill 62 sector in 1916), and 10 RE Tunnelling Companies who worked for the II Corps and 5th Army, produced many tunnels in this area. They are known to have constructed concrete caissons for depth: the casting of these tunnel frames (Timber frames, generally used, often are of several distinct designs) at Sanctuary Wood has not been investigated but is a distinct possibility. Out of interest I will try to trawl through the engineering companies records, but this takes time, meanwhile please do not be so dismissive.

This information may help to answer the early question in this forum, i.e. are the Sanctuary Wood trenches and tunnels authentic or not.

For conjecture, one could also ask why a family which returned to a tunnel-strewn piece of land would need to dig another tunnel? This is very labour intensive.

[salientpoints]

This information may help to answer the early question in this forum, i.e. are the Sanctuary Wood trenches and tunnels authentic or not.

For conjecture, one could also ask why a family which returned to a tunnel-strewn piece of land would need to dig another tunnel? This is very labour intensive.

Having followed this thread closely I think in amongst the tangents in this thread that the consensus is indeed the trenches and tunnels are for the most part genuine and have simply seen years of ongoing 'retouching' to keep them looking the part and safe for the thousands of visitors over the years. Of course parts may have been added or 'redug' but no one is saying this isn't the case.

I think to simply say they are completely false is in itself false. Remember, history is not necessarily all about the truth, it is what someone tells you to be the truth and we all know how family stories etc get altered etc over time - but that's another thread...

Maybe someone should just ask the guy in there without looking at his feet

Ryan

[bkristof]

That is maybe the best solution, but 'the guy inthere' will never say what part is authentic or not+ he is not like the most helpfull and friendliest guy around...