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Remembered Today:

sanctuary wood trenches how real?


docchippy

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All looks pretty convincing to me. But then I wasn't under the impression they were dug for tourists anyway based on my reading. Whether a factoid or not the evidence points to them being correct albeit communications trenches rather than the front line, but thats irrelevant when you are in them.

Certainly to quote Tim "From an educational point of view one walk through those trenches does more than any number of books, and makes going to all the cemeteries far more poignant" - this is all too true :)

I think the factoid side is just the way history has a way of getting rewritten along the way. After all to actually give them a name and location as in your map is significantly more exciting to a publisher then to say the trenches were part of the ones marked in blue...

Ryan

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Ok,

this became an intersting discussion.

A new point of vieuw:

WHAT IF: there is a possibility to restore a real trench + make it also like the rela trenches where (a-frame, but no concrtee bags)

Some sort of combination of the yorkshire Trench + hill 62.

WHAT IF: a belgian WW 1 living history asociation keeps the trenches 'alive' once in a month + restores them like the soldiers did.

WHAT IF: tourists can visit them, walk in the trench + see the re-enactors in their sodiers daily tasks?

Can this be the answer to all ou questions / needs?

You're oppinion is very welcome, because we have such a plan....

If you can give critics, well then try to do better was our idea. ;)

thx,

kristof

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Kristof,

It is a good idea, in principle. However, the trench which you describe, i.e. a later war trench with A-frames, duckboards, revetments...etc...would take a hell of a lot of looking after. I do not know if you are aware at all of a group called the Khaki Chums in England. Well a few years ago we came across to Plugstreet and redug a 1914 trench over Christmas with the result of thousands of people from many different countries coming to see what was going on. However, I use this example because we were there for a week and had incredible problems stoping the walls falling in, even though we had built the trenches to correct miltary standards. Also any form of makeshift boarding we used was swallowed by the infamous Flanders mud. A trench such as you are suggesting would take a lot of reparation. Wood and sand bags rot very quickly in these conditions, as do items left there.

Also would once a month be enough? How many people are likely to go there between September and April in regards to School trips and Tourists. Would it be wise to think in wider terms, may be in conjuction with the In Flanders Fileds Museum or something. To give it creadence and also advertising?

I do not mean to disparage you, because I think that in escence it is a good idea, I just wanted to put foward a few ideas.

All the best with your project,

Tim

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Whereabouts exactly are the 'Bayernwald' trenches at whitesheet please? Am going to Toc H for the opening of the revamped Concert Hall and would like to divert to them. Also, is Kroonaert Wood open to visitors yet, and are they genuine German trenches?

Thanks.

Kerry

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Hi tim,

Many thanks for the remarks, it makes us think...

i think we maybe have seen eachother with the bruce Bairnfeather Remembrance + the New cross ceremony. I was the Gordon Highlander of SRD.

And maybe we meet again at the Passchendale 1917 mamorial museum opening at Zonnebeke. If you come with the chums, who will come i heard from Charlot (Varlet Farm).

Anyhow concerning the trench idea:

- We can get drier grounds.

- It will be near a museum

- Wood will be prepared against rotting.

- We will install a kind of "anti flooding" with a pump. (unvisible for visitors)

- once in a month we will do living history, but repairs can happen all times when needed.

- Items will be preserved in a small dug out and special items will be kept dry next to the trench in the museum.

- It can not be 100% hiostorical correct, we go for 90% we will add some modern technologie to preserve it and make it dry and strong, so it doesn't collapse.

Glad to know there are also other people intersted,

thx,

kristof

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Kerry,

Croonaert wood is Bayernwald at Wijtschate. Croonaert wood is not the exact place of the trenches, its 500m up to the road, and that is Bayernwald.

It will open in the weekend of 17 april.

greets,

kristof

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the trenches at Bayernwald are by the way excellent restored trenches.

But offcourse German one's

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There are still pristine trenches left. Exactly as they were in 1918.

I regularly take groups around near Pont à Mousson (sorry, I know the british weren't there, so they don't really count), and there the trenches still have the barbed wire entanglements in front of them, and in pretty good condition, considering the time.

Go up the Haute Chevauchée and not onlt are the trenches there, so are the UXB - by the ton.

I have been to Hill 62 or whatever it's called and 'Oh my. What a dump'. All the atmosphere of a scrap yard. It's all obviously done up for the tourists.

Stop going to these places (and how about not going to the Somme for a bit? Head east and see the places that are completely untouched - try Verdun for a start.

Get in touch with the Luxembourg WFA before you go. We can take you to places that few ever visit and they will make your hair stand on end.

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Get in touch with the Luxembourg WFA before you go. We can take you to places that few ever visit and they will make your hair stand on end.

Hi

How can this be arranged?

Talking of Hill 62, I was cycling around Ieper with a friend of mine a couple of years ago, and we managed quite inadvertantly :o to get in without paying.

Either they had taken pity on us (the Belgian saddles were VERY uncomfortable) or they thought that we were part of a coach party.

Wouldn't go there again though.

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Stop going to these places (and how about not going to the Somme for a bit? Head east and see the places that are completely untouched - try Verdun for a start.

And Alsace / Vosges.

Equipped with a good map, some contemporary documentation plus good level of fitness and mobility, you can make some wonderful discoveries with a feeling that you are the first person in the world to find them (which is of course false). Complemented by amazing views and wildlife sightings, you come down from the mountains feeling you've had the most incredible day.

I can post photos to entice.

Gwyn

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I can post photos to entice.

Gwyn

Gwyn

Please post photos or send by email off-forum

Thanks

Martin

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I visited Sanctuary Wood about 2 years ago as part of a battlefield tour,

being a novice to WW1. history i accepted that the trenches there were

authentic. Even if they are not one, on a first visit, can gain some idea

however simplistic of the conditions of trench life --using imagination.

At least they created my great interest in Great War history so the trenches

real or pseudo were worth visiting.

I found the photographic collection in the museum absolutely fascinating.

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Two things I guess from this interesting thread -

1) Kristof, I would visit for sure and one of the points raised about keeping conditions relatively sound I was going to mention has been covered as you can indeed build in drainage systems unobstrusively thus making them available to visit all year round. You only then need worry about erosion from the top down. Count me in as a visitor!

2)

Stop going to these places (and how about not going to the Somme for a bit? Head east and see the places that are completely untouched - try Verdun for a start.

Can anyone then tell me other such places that are attainable in a day trip apart from Croonaert opening in April? Lets say I get to Ieper for 11am and want to catch the 10pm train back from Coquelles. And I don't want to spend most of the day driving to one spot for just 30 mins...

Thanks

Ryan

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Gwyn

Please post photos or send by email off-forum

Sure. They are diapositives atm so I'll scan them and start a separate thread.

Thank you for asking.

Gwyn

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Two things I guess from this interesting thread -

1) Kristof, I would visit for sure and one of the points raised about keeping conditions relatively sound I was going to mention has been covered as you can indeed build in drainage systems unobstrusively thus making them available to visit all year round. You only then need worry about erosion from the top down. Count me in as a visitor!

Can anyone then tell me other such places that are attainable in a day trip apart from Croonaert opening in April? Lets say I get to Ieper for 11am and want to catch the 10pm train back from Coquelles. And I don't want to spend most of the day driving to one spot for just 30 mins...

Thanks

Ryan

Thanks for your interset, i think this summer we will start the project.

About visiting: Ever seen the Zandvoorde German HQ bunker?

Ever seen the carterpilar pool (mine crater)? near hill 60

Ever visited Ploegsteerd? and the woods? with some remainings of trenches and bom holes + bunkers?

...

There is so much...

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the trenches at Bayernwald are by the way excellent restored trenches.

But offcourse German one's

I am a little confused by your postings; have you not 'restored' the trenches in the old Croonart Wood Trench Museum? Or have you dug trenches in the correct place( as opposed to where Becquart dug them), in the same area of woodland? Or have you worked on a completely new area of woodland and in what sense have you 'restored' trenches? Does this mean you have dug down into a trench system that was once there? Or dug out trenches that were already visible at ground level?

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The trenches of Bekaert where indeed false. So we restored the ORIGINAL trenches who where there, so the Bekaert trenches are completely gone!

We also restored the listening post (shaft) + recently found the second one(last week).

I hope this is clearing up the case.

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EV01_D10_154_Ypres_-_Sanctuary_Wood_Tren

These are the trenches everyone is discussing? If so, they are "realistic" ... I think everyone seems to have forgotten that it is meant to be how these things looked, sort - of ... if one compares them to the Vimy trenchs of concreate ...

EV01_D11_070_Vimy_Battlefield_-_german_o

Which one tells the better story ... better in terms of teaching about the conditions, etc ...

None of this is "real" ... heck, you going to have artillery bursting ... the smell of the latrine close by ... the idea of mud, blood and vomit?

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The trenches of Bekaert where indeed false. So we restored the ORIGINAL trenches who where there, so the Bekaert trenches are completely gone!

We also restored the listening post (shaft) + recently found the second one(last week).

I hope this is clearing up the case.

You mean you re-dug these trenches in their original locations? As I know, there was no sign of any other trenches around those prepared for the 'Trench Museum' at Croonart Wood?

In that case, in what way are your trenches any different from the ones at Sanctuary Wood, which you accuse the owner of having dug out? I know there is no commercial aspect to your project, and I indeed welcome it, but I don't see how one could claim the moral highground when your trenches are no different from those at Hill 62 - or am I missing something? :ph34r:

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The Bayernwald trenches are reconstructed ORIGINAL trenches.

They are dug up by ABAF.They where there but Mr. Bekaert used only parts of them + filled them up with soil from his trenches. The wooden constructions where still there + the 'dugboards' + the walls in wood (branches).

Offcourse the original wood could not be preserved, so all is rebuild + the original pieces will be in the museum at Zonnebeke.

But the listening posts will be the original one's + the bunkers are the original ones.

So the location of the trenches will be real too.

< - > hill 62 , new location + new dug trenches in the 50's + pure tourism

(nothing wrong with it, but not historical)

<-> Bayernwald, restored trenches, on original location, with original bunkers and constructed to regulations of german trenches. + FREE

offcourse they will look new now, but in a few years...

What is the difference?

Well it is simple to me...

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As I know, there was no sign of any other trenches around those prepared for the 'Trench Museum' at Croonart Wood?

There were actually, if you delved in the undergrowth enough and went away from Andre B.'s trenches. As you probably know, quite a large area of the floor of the wood was covered in brambles (or whatever they're called- I'm no gardener!) and these covered a few remains. There was also evidence in the "rise and fall" of the ground in quite a few sections of the wood - not a lot to see, only maybe a foot or two, but they were definately there (in parts). One of Andre's trenches actually did peter out into the remains of a genuine trench, so they weren't all innacurate.

Anyway,for those interested in comparisons, here's a map of the trenches in 1916...

Dave.

post-4-1080430179.jpg

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...and the British view a year later...

post-4-1080430279.jpg

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Glad to know there are also other people intersted,

kristof,

If I were a multi millionaire I'd start right now in a little place called the Somme.

I too am glad to hear others have thought about this as well.

Jon

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