Sergeant's stripes

[ianjonesncl]

There is a good photograph of a Battery Quartermaster Sergeant in this post:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=78667

This shows the Segreants stripes, the Gun above it which is worn by all Sergeants in the Royal Artillery, and the crown at the top designating him as the BQMS.

[Rockdoc]

Ian, thanks for the post on the manning of a Subsection. Very useful stuff but there are still ten men in the photo unaccounted for. I guess they're people who were members of the Battery but not directly associated with any given gun.

The board reads:

'F' SUB SECTION

25th Battery RFA

Lahore India

1913

They left England in March 1910 for NW India. I know they were at Nazirabad and Lahore and think they may have been at Dalhousie at some point from the number of postcards of it he sent to my Grandmother. Over there they were part of XLVI Brigade and became part of XXXV Brigade, based at Woolwich, on their return in January 1914.

Keith

[Joe Sweeney]

Keith,

The number of men per the subsection may in fact be understrength (or missing the Ofcs which were usually also counted to a subsection).

The War establishment of a battery in 1915 (4 gun battery New Armies) had between 32 and 37 men in each subsection depending on what and who was in it. The batteries total strength was 138 men.

The WE for 1914 for a six gun 18pdr battery (India usually manned at War Establishment and not Peace Establishment) had 198 men--so a subsection would have been around 33 men (my WE for 1914 does not break down to subsections)

Anyone have the 1914 Field Service Manual for a Field Art Bde--it would show the sub section break down.

Joe Sweeney

[Rockdoc]

Joe, there are only other ranks in the photograph so the officer establishment of the Subsection is indeed missing.

Keith

[SFayers]

Superb photo Keith,

So, being a 25th Battery man at the time, is the chap in your signature on the photo?

One of my gg uncles was with 25th Battery way back in the mid-1890s. I don't suppose by any chance you've come across any battery photos from this period?

All the best

Steve

[Rockdoc]

Yes, Steve, he's present. He's the sixth man from the right (as you look at the photo) on the middle row, just to the right of the three men on the back row. He should be fairly recognisable from my avatar, which was taken, I believe, in September of October, 1909, at his passing-out. I don't have any earlier photos, I'm afraid, only those he brought or sent back. Those carriage doors are very large, I've always thought. Are they that size to allow the equipment to be driven inside with the drivers still mounted?

Keith

[ianjonesncl]

Lust picked this up from the British & Commonwealth Military Badge Rorum

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15198

It looks like the Gun badge was introduced in 1902 - worsted version , a bass version in 1906.

The brass gun badge was introduced in October 1906.

A gun badge is worn by all Staff Sergeants and Sergeants above a three bar chevron (SSgt also has a crown above the gun).

Between 1920 and 1946 a Lance Sergeant wore just the three bar chevron.

Prior to 1920 a two bar chevron was worn by a Corporal and a single chevron by a Lance Bombardier. In 1920 the Corporal rank was changed to Bombardier.

Master Gunners of all Classes ( I, II & III) wore the gun below the relevant badge of rank, and is still worn by the Master Gunner Royal School of Artillery below the Royal Arms in wreath and by Master Gunners below the Royal Arms.

A worsted (khaki) cloth version of the badge was introduced in 1902.

[Black 8]

There is a good photograph of a Battery Quartermaster Sergeant in this post:

http://1914-1918.inv...showtopic=78667

This shows the Segreants stripes, the Gun above it which is worn by all Sergeants in the Royal Artillery, and the crown at the top designating him as the BQMS.

Surely the crown designates him as a Staff Sergeant? BQMS is an appointment not a rank - in the same way that you could be a WO2 without being a BSM. As a Battery Commander I have 3 SSgts under my command, one of whom is my BQMS - the badge of rank is identical, his appointment is not visibly represented. Of course, if a Battery only had 1 x SSgt on the stablishment back then, my point is null and void and the SSgt is, by default, the BQMS. However, I also seem to recall that until the change to Warrant Officer ranks and badges in 1915 (?) the BSM would also have worn SSgt rank...?

My other question relating to this interesting thread is over the use of the epithet "Detachment Commander" for the head of a gun detachment (or "Sub"); common practise now (and I believe then) is to refer to him (or these days, her!) as "the Number 1", - Detachment Commander is a comparatively modern term as far as I'm aware, and is more usually applied to Command Post NCOs ( CP DCs). The numbering of Gun Sub personnel doesn't appear to have changed since before WW1, and a Light Gun Sub these days still has the No.1 as the gun commander, No.2 as loader, No.3 as layer and 4, 5 and 6 as ammo numbers (plus the "coverer", or 2IC who will take up commmand of the sub if required).

Please note that my knowledge of the RA is almost entirely contemporary - for a gunner officer, my interest in the Great War is horribly PBI-centric! Therefore I'm not being a pedant - these are questions rather than statements, and I'm sure the Forum's many experts will set me straight on any fallacies.

Thanks guys.

Dave

[nigelfe]

You're right. However, the BQMS was not necessarily the only staff sgt in a battery in the WW1 era. At that time there was no REME, all the maintenance tradesmen were RA (of whatever flavour), and there were some staff sgts. These trades notably included the gun fitters and farriers. However, I think they also wore trade ensignia. I also think the bty sigs sgt wore crossed flags, this position was established c. 1908 IIRC.

[Black 8]

You're right. However, the BQMS was not necessarily the only staff sgt in a battery in the WW1 era. At that time there was no REME, all the maintenance tradesmen were RA (of whatever flavour), and there were some staff sgts. These trades notably included the gun fitters and farriers. However, I think they also wore trade ensignia. I also think the bty sigs sgt wore crossed flags, this position was established c. 1908 IIRC.

You're correct about the trade insignia - some of these still exist in regular RA use, but generally only appear on No.2 dress these days. Sadly even the gun badge above the stripes on Sgts and SSgts is only apparent on No.2 dress - the ranks slides worn on the chest in contemporary working dress don't feature it (and the need to distinguish between a Sgt and a LSgt has long since vanished, along with tht rank in the RA). Many of the old trade badges appear unchanged - crossed flags for a trained signaller, PTI's crossed swords, marksman's crossed rifles etc. I believe the King's Troop RHA also maintain some of the more archaic ones such as farrier (probably in common with the Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment). As a slight tangent, I wonder if any forum member knows how many such badges are still worn unchanged...?