Otago Mounted Rifles, Egypt & Gallipoli. + France?

[JoMH]

Hello Steve,

Thanks for the feedback on Major Reid's death. The 'Gallipoli 1915' site is quite confusing. From what you are saying, I gather that Reid was in charge of A Squadron, and not in the same place as the author on 'Gallipoli 1915' states.

Do you think he might have been the same Major Reid as mentioned in the OMR diary/summary?

Joanna

[JoMH]

Hi Jo,

I meant to mention before - after returning to New Zealand, Charles Dobson was vicar at Richmond between 1920 - 21, and then from October 1921 at Mangatainoka in the Wellington Diocese. It's possible that he and Clive Mortimer-Jones were still in contact, or at least aware of one another during that period. In 1922, Dobson went off to Smyrna (now Izmir) in Turkey, but that's another story, and certainly out of the bounds of the Great War Forum.

Also, I wanted to say that when I first joined this forum, I hardly expected to discover any personal references to Dobson himself. However, through the forum, and the kindness of its members, I have discovered an enormous amount - this all without any existing family papers. So, I have no doubt you have come to the right place for help.

It might be worth starting a fresh topic with your questions about the time of the occupation of Germany. This could attract the relevant members with the information you're seeking.

Joanna

[jobroad]

Jo,

Thanks for that mate.

How does one get a copy of these records?

The ones that look interesting are;

11- Army Corps

12 - Army Corp - Intell

160 - all Otago Sqn

161 - Cyc Bn that deal with July 1918

S.B

Hi Steve

I expect that they are at National Archives in Thorndon, Wellington.

I could try calling in to see if you want, but not this week.

What were you hunting in particular?

jo

[jobroad]

Hi Jo,

I meant to mention before - after returning to New Zealand, Charles Dobson was vicar at Richmond between 1920 - 21, and then from October 1921 at Mangatainoka in the Wellington Diocese. It's possible that he and Clive Mortimer-Jones were still in contact, or at least aware of one another during that period. In 1922, Dobson went off to Smyrna (now Izmir) in Turkey, but that's another story, and certainly out of the bounds of the Great War Forum.

Also, I wanted to say that when I first joined this forum, I hardly expected to discover any personal references to Dobson himself. However, through the forum, and the kindness of its members, I have discovered an enormous amount - this all without any existing family papers. So, I have no doubt you have come to the right place for help.

It might be worth starting a fresh topic with your questions about the time of the occupation of Germany. This could attract the relevant members with the information you're seeking.

Joanna

Hi Joanna

I wonder.... if he was at Richmond before he went to war and returned there, it suggests he had some committment to that church, and it could be that he wrote to them. If he had, then where would those records be now (if they are no longer at Richmond)? ... you could try Nelson Diocesan Archives or the Nelson Museum for starters.

I can check with the two surviving children of CMJ whether or not they recall Dobson. Neither Richmond nor Mangatainoka are easily reached from Cambridge, though later from 1938, CMJ was vicar at Waipukurau, not all that far away.

Thank you for your advice about PM - I couldn't find it in the introductory notes, but what you say makes sense.

Thanks.

jo

[JoMH]

Hello Jo,

Thanks for that.

In fact, before the war Charles Dobson was working in the Nelson Diocese - at the time of joining up he'd been at Havelock Sounds for about a year. Apparently, he was known as 'The Vicar of the Sounds', and he got around his parish by walking enormous distances and sleeping out. They also provided him with a launch, which my uncle describes as his 'church'. Contacting the Nelson Diocese and Museum is a very good idea of yours, and I have been meaning to - so I will get on to that.

By the time CMJ was in Waipukurau, Charles was already dead (he died in Lisbon in 1930). But CMJ's children may have heard of Charles in retrospect - possibly...

Do you know which one of three mentioned in Men of Faith & Courage was our Padre Murphy? The book lists:

MURPHY, J C (CH. C1. IV) RC

HMNZHS Maheno late 1917

NZ Rifle Brigade Reserve Depot

NZ Divisional Artillery

MURPHY, M A (Ch. C1. IV) RC

NZ Field Artillery Reserve Depot

1 Bn Wellington Regt

MURPHY, W J (Ch. C1. IV) RC

HMNZHS Maheno 1918

My guess is the second - M A Murphy. Do you know what our Murphy's first name was?

Also, have you tried to see if Oxford has any records? I'm not sure where I would begin, but I imagine he would have spent quite a bit of time there, and there may be records.

Joanna

[jobroad]

Hello Jo,

Thanks for that.

In fact, before the war Charles Dobson was working in the Nelson Diocese - at the time of joining up he'd been at Havelock Sounds for about a year. Apparently, he was known as 'The Vicar of the Sounds', and he got around his parish by walking enormous distances and sleeping out. They also provided him with a launch, which my uncle describes as his 'church'. Contacting the Nelson Diocese and Museum is a very good idea of yours, and I have been meaning to - so I will get on to that.

By the time CMJ was in Waipukurau, Charles was already dead (he died in Lisbon in 1930). But CMJ's children may have heard of Charles in retrospect - possibly...

Do you know which one of three mentioned in Men of Faith & Courage was our Padre Murphy? The book lists:

MURPHY, J C (CH. C1. IV) RC

HMNZHS Maheno late 1917

NZ Rifle Brigade Reserve Depot

NZ Divisional Artillery

MURPHY, M A (Ch. C1. IV) RC

NZ Field Artillery Reserve Depot

1 Bn Wellington Regt

MURPHY, W J (Ch. C1. IV) RC

HMNZHS Maheno 1918

My guess is the second - M A Murphy. Do you know what our Murphy's first name was?

Also, have you tried to see if Oxford has any records? I'm not sure where I would begin, but I imagine he would have spent quite a bit of time there, and there may be records.

Joanna

Your grandfather had a very fine "church" then.

Father Murphy was William John Murphy who died 1948 in Auckland.

Yes, but it seems Oxford has only a brief record. Apparently, at that time getting an MA was more a matter of saying "I'd like one please" and the BA was converted. Or so I'm told - surely it must have been more than that.

Are we straying a too far from topic?

jo

[JoMH]

Yes. However, I imagine a launch would have been sumptuous in comparison to what he made do with during the war.

They still do that at Oxford, I believe - for a fee. I didn't know you could convert a degree from somewhere else though.

I guess we may be straying a bit, but the chaplains and the time just after the armistice seem very much on topic to me. Charles wasn't out of the army till 1920. Moderators will tell us (nicely?) if we are.

What do you think to starting a new topic? Hard to know how to title it. It seems a lot of people are taking a look at this one, but a fresh topic (one that doesn't lead everyone to think you are only discussing the Otago Mounted Rifles) may draw some answers. Or, if you like, because I've posted more than 100 times, I could open the question to 'Skindles', which allows discussions outside of the limit of the Great War. Let me know what you think.

Perhaps William Murphy is a lead...

I've had a bit of a trawl on Google for the Army of Occupation, but accounts of that are very general. I don't know if war diaries were continued during that period. ??

Joanna

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

If possible ;

160 - all Otago Sqn

As to Maj Reid I can't say who that could be as the Embark records show only three aussie officers in the Anzac (Corps) by that name, two in the 1st LHR (a Lt and Maj JM Reid) and another a Lt in the 11Bn.

But I don't know if any NZ or British officers had that name?

S.B

[JoMH]

Hi Steve,

The OMR summary says AQMC (Major Reid)'.

I don't know what AQMC means. Does A = Australian?

Yes, Major Reid could have been British or NZ.

Thanks for looking up the Australian Reids.

Joanna

[JoMH]

Hi Jo,

My suggestion that I could start a new topic in 'Skindles' is a non-starter, of course. You won't be able to post to it yet!

Joanna

[JoMH]

Hello Jo,

I have started a new topic under 'Other' with the question 'Were NZ War Diaries kept after the Armistice?', and inserting a link for this thread. Hope this is ok with you.

Interestingly it turns out that diaries for 2/Auckland & 1/Wellington are held in the National Archives in London! I had no idea - assuming they were all in NZ. I will be over there in September, so will check them, and meanwhile do a search for any other NZ diaries they may have.

Joanna

[JoMH]

From a previous post on this thread:

"I have also traced a photo of Chaplain Captain C J H Dobson which I will post soon - clearer than the previous posting.

Cheers

Zack"

This photo of Charles Dobson was e-mailed to me by Zack a while ago. As he said, it is clearer than the previous one Thanks again!

[Neesoon]

Joanna,

You may also be aware that when the New Zealand Division was reformed for service in Franc in Mar 1916 in Egypt, the OMR was for all purposed disestablished. One Squadron was retained as a Divisional unit and the remainder of personnel was distributed as reinforcements within the Division. The Artillery took some but a vary large number we posted to the newly created New Zealand Pioneer Battalion. This was a new unit that had not previously be in the NZEF ORBAT. This Battalion was made up of the New Zealand Native Contingent (Maori) however due to the shortage of Maori volunteers it was reinforced with additional contingents from the Cook Island and Niue Island. A number of the original OMR personnel were still with the Pioneer Battalion up to 14/1/18 when there were sufficient Maori personnel to completely man the Battalion and at this date the Cook Islanders were transfered to the Rarotongan Company in Palistine and the OMR were give the option of selecting what infantry Regiment within the NZ Div they wish, but were not offered to option of joining the NZMR in Palestine.

NeeSoon

[JoMH]

NeeSoon,

Thank you for that information. I only knew the following from NZ Archives regarding OMR after Gallipoli:

'The Otago Mounted Rifles was a unit of divisional troops separate to the New Zealand Mounted Rifles Brigade. However, the unit served as part of the Brigade on Gallipoli. In January 1916 the Otago Mounted Rifles were reduced to squadron strength, and went to France as part of the New Zealand Division. However, in France they became part of Sodley's II Anzac Mounted Regiment, a corps unit (See WA/60 [which I haven't yet seen]).

Could you tell me the source of your information?

Joanna

[Neesoon]

Joanna,

I have been working on the history of the Pacific Islnder's who served in the NZEF for the past 6 + years. Have identified just over 1,000 of them. The transfer of the Islanders to Palestine in January 1918 also requires the transfer out of the OMR individuals. The source is in the New Zealand National Archives in the AD, Series 1 section.

Kind Regards,

NeeSoon

[JoMH]

Thank you, NeeSoon,

That's quite some job you have been doing!

I wonder how the unit history for the OMR is coming on. Any news, anyone?

Joanna