Otago Mounted Rifles, Egypt & Gallipoli. + France?

[JoMH]

I found reference to Series 160 on this page on Archway.

Open the scanned pdf of volume 2, look under Non-Divisional Units in France and you get 'Series 160 2 Anzac Mounted Troops'. By the way, the pdf took ages to load up for me.

Joanna

[stevenbecker]

Jo,

Thanks for that mate.

How does one get a copy of these records?

The ones that look interesting are;

11- Army Corps

12 - Army Corp - Intell

160 - all Otago Sqn

161 - Cyc Bn that deal with July 1918

S.B

[JoMH]

Hi Steve,

I e-mailed reference@archives.govt.nz, giving details of the files I was interested in, and waited... A reply eventually came.

Payment is rather awkward from outside New Zealand as Archive NZ has no secure on-line payment facilities.

By the way, I originally ordered OMR diaries 1914 -1915, but have requested this be extended to 1916 now.

Good luck,

Joanna

[ZackNZ]

Joanna

If I can assist please PM me the details and I will get you the files.

Zack

[JoMH]

Hi Zack,

That's very kind of you. However, my order is well under way - they have received my fax with payment details. I hope now that I should receive the OMR war diaries 1914 - 1916 fairly soon. So thank you, but I will sit tight on this one. One reason for the delay has been my absence - visiting my mother (daughter of Charles Dobson) in England for a fortnight.

In the same order are war diaries for 2/Auckland Regiment. Dobson turns up with them in October 1917, according to his war file. I will study both sets of war diaries in the light of his war file before deciding whether to order any of the 160 series. From what I can see so far, he was ill a lot during 1916.

It shows:

9/11/15. London. Adm. 3rd London Gen Hos. Dysentery

28/3/16. Hornchurch. At Depot - Unfit.

18/4/16. Hornchurch. Unfit at present at Depot.

13/5/16. Hornchurch. " " "

28/4/16. Hornchurch. Awaiting permission to travel.

11/12/16. Ldn. Adm. NZ G Hos Codford Dec 3rd influenza slight

20/12/16. Ldn. Disch. from NZ Gen Hos. after influenza, Dec 10th

The earliest mention for 1917 is:

30/6/17. London. Slightly wnd [?unreadable word?] with unit June 5th 1917. Face.

Some big gaps!

My thanks again. I am indebted.

Joanna

[JoMH]

By the way, should anyone wish to take a look, Rev Charles Dobson's war file is one of the digitised ones on Archway at Archives New Zealand. His full name was Charles James Hamilton Dobson. (Thanks to Zack for the information on digitised files.)

Joanna

[JoMH]

A resounding thud on the doormat heralded the arrival of some OMR War Diaries this morning!

A quick look through shows a series of dated summaries, rather than what I would describe as 'diaries' (though of course I'm not an expert), the last date being 16.6.15.

Joanna

[JoMH]

Otago Mounted Rifles New Zealand & Egypt.

(Notes on the summary - missing out quite a lot about horses...)

21/09/14 Regt embarked from Port Chalmers in 'Hawkes Bay' - left for Wellington on same day - arriving there on 24th.

[No mention of 2nd transport 'Ruapehu'.]

28/09/14 Men & horses sent to Miramar (suburb of Wellington).

14/10/14 Re-embarked same transport & sailed 16th October.

700 horses on troopship. Less than 1% loss up till arrival in Cairo.

Cairo training: dismounted training until horses fit - elementary musketry, rapid fire, sighting & digging of trenches.

[No mention of where camp was, but I am assuming Zeitoun?]

Manouvres: attack of Gebel Urfa.

[Where is Gebel Urfa?]

23/03/15 Regt. inspected with Division by High Comm. in Egypt, Sir Arthur McMahon.

29/03/15 Division inspected by Gen. Sir Ian Hamilton.

JH

[JoMH]

Egypt continued:

13/04/15 Regiment under orders to proceed to Alexandria to embark - 'presumably for the Dardanelles'.

2 squadrons ordered - while one [12th] to stay for present in Cairo

Decided that 5th & 7th squadrons ought to go. 5th left Zeitoun at 5 pm on 13th - while 7th left 2 pm & headquarters by 2 am on 14th.

14/04/15 Embarked on 'Anglo Egyptian' at 5 pm.

6 am pulled out from quay & awaited orders to sail

11 am orders to return and disembark.

15/04/15 Disembarked 9 pm & troops on their way to Mex camp - reached 2 am in the dark.

[something about Mex camp here.]

16/04/15 O.C Regiment appointed Camp Commandant at Mex. [Who was this?]

'On application to the G.O.C Base (Gen. McGregor) to transfer the 12th Squadron (now at Cairo) here met with a rebuff.'

10/5/15 M. G. Section embarked for Dardanelles - to be brigaded with the rest of the M. Guns from the Corps

15/5/15 12th Squadron (from Cairo) leaves for the Dardanelles - having been specially outfitted to act as infantry.

11/5/15 The regiment at Mex had orders to go off & embark (as infantry) - next morning the order was cancelled.

[JoMH]

Lemnos & Gallipoli

20/05/15 Regiment left Mex dismounted to join main body in the Dardanelles - where Division (minus mounted men) have been for 3 weeks.

The horses - 800 approx. were left in camp at Mex in charge of Major Nutsford with Vet Officer (Cpt Howard).

Several farriers stowed away in the transport. Argued that they had agreed to do farriers work, but did not think their chances of fighting should be spoiled on account of this.

[information here about equipment - esp procurement of inferior German rucksacks for kit.]

370 men embarked 'City of Edinburgh' - joined by about 200 4th A.L.H. [Australian Light Horse?]

24/05/15 Sunday, arrived Lemnos. Author reported to Staff HQ (Capt Dunlop 'Aragon')

27/05/15 Thursday - got word to prepare that night to go off - A.L.H. having gone off on Tuesday.

Made moonlight passage in mine-sweeper 'Clacton' - arrived Gaba Tepe 2 am - immediately went to shore - shown sleeping place on the beach by the AQMC (Major Reid) - where waited till daylight.

9 am reported to G.O.C - told to be in No 4 Section of Outpost - O.C. Brig. Gen. Russell.

Barge with stores was shelled coming on shore - lost some perishable goods through inrush of salt-water.

29/05/15 Told off for duty & joined 12th Squadron who had been already holding posts a short distance in front of the main trenches - low down on Walkers Ridge. Had been 6 weeks separation. [Edit: Separate page states - "The regiment after leaving Mex (near Alexandria) was 370 strong. This meant 150 men from the 5th and 7th squadrons, plus headquarters. On our arrival at GABA TEPE (ANZAC) we were joined by our 12th squadron plus the 50 men who had been detailed as a body guard to the C. in C. The regiment was consequently 540 strong when it took over this trench work."]

Took over trenches from Canterbury Regiment - who also gave us their bivouacs on Walkers Ridge.

All troops in & out of the trenches 'stand to arms' at 7 - 8 pm & 3 - 4 am

[JoMH]

In trying to find out more about 'Major Reid', I found this fascinating story in which a Major James Moffat Reid is mentioned. I wonder if they are one and the same?

Joanna

[jobroad]

My grandfather, Rev Charles J H Dobson (9/633) sailed with Otago Mounted Rifles on the HMNZT No 5 "RUAPEHU". I gather he arrived at Alexandria on 3rd Dec 1914.

[Edit 13/06/09 - Correction: Dobson sailed on HMNZT No 10 Arawa]

(By the way, he was later with the 2nd Auckland Battalion while in France and Belgium.)

Joanna

Hi Joanna

I have been reading your postings regarding your grandfather Charles DOBSON with interest. My father is chasing information about his own father who also served as a New Zealand padre in WW1.

His father was [then] Rev. Clive Mortimer Jones. He went to war after Gallipoli, towards the end of the war, and was with troops at the Somme. I gather that chaplains shared their services across army units, going where needed. We have letters he wrote home to his family, and in them he mentions your grandfather.

On 26 November 1918 he wrote about of a 4-day trip in a motor lorry with 20 people, visiting battle sites in the areas around Cambrai and Bapaume with Padre Dobson and Father Murphy. Their task was to find bodies, record identities etc. They marked 26 graves for the War Office. I don't have the exact words he used - this was from notes from a recent phone call - but could get them and another item that relates if you wish.

Father has become enthusiastic about going to France himself for the ceremonies at Le Quesnoy in November and wants to find out whatever he can about his father's time there. He has asked me to hunt up information about Padre Dobson in the hope that more of his time immediately after the war can be filled in.

We know that his unit and others moved by foot and by train north-east into German territory in the following weeks, and that he was granted an MA from Oxford in 1919. He visited Rome during that time too, with Father Murphy. Clive left England to return to NZ on "Matatua" in August 1919. I believe that in general, those who joined up later in the war had to wait longer to get a place on a ship home, and it was a challenge to keep them productively occupied while waiting.

Later, Clive changed his surname to Mortimer-Jones by deed poll.

I'm keen to hear how else I can fill the gaps before he came back to New Zealand.

cheers,

jo

[ZackNZ]

Some information for you (which you might already have) on Rev. Clive Mortimer Jones

Surname JONES

Given Name Clive Mortimer

Category Nominal Roll Vol. 3

Regimental Number 57337

Rank Reverend (4th Class)

Next of Kin Title Mrs C M

Next of Kin Surname JONES

Next of Kin Relationship Wife

Next of Kin Address 769 Devon Road East New Plymouth

Roll 66

Page 20

Occupation Clerk in Holy Orders

Source: Nominal Roll

http://muse.aucklandmuseum.com/databases/C...2&Ordinal=1

Source: Auckland War Memorial Museum Cenotaph database

His personal file reference:

http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?OID=7810526

His probate held in Auckland Archives New Zealand:

http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?OID=16597930

Photo - on its way

Chaplain Clive Mortimer Jones served in France from 1917 – 1919 attached to 3 Battalion Canterbury Regiment and 1 Battalion Wellington Regiment. After the war he was vicar of Cambridge, Waikato.

Source: Men of Faith and Courage The Official History of New Zealand’s Army Chaplains by J Bryant Haigh, page 72

Zack

[ZackNZ]

Photo

[jobroad]

Some information for you (which you might already have) on Rev. Clive Mortimer Jones

Surname JONES

Given Name Clive Mortimer

Category Nominal Roll Vol. 3

Regimental Number 57337

Rank Reverend (4th Class) ... etc

http://muse.aucklandmuseum.com/databases/C...2&Ordinal=1

Source: Auckland War Memorial Museum Cenotaph database

His personal file reference:

http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?OID=7810526

His probate held in Auckland Archives New Zealand:

http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?OID=16597930

Photo - on its way

Chaplain Clive Mortimer Jones served in France from 1917 – 1919 attached to 3 Battalion Canterbury Regiment and 1 Battalion Wellington Regiment. After the war he was vicar of Cambridge, Waikato.

Source: Men of Faith and Courage The Official History of New Zealand's Army Chaplains by J Bryant Haigh, page 72

Zack

Hi Zach

I had much of that information, but not the "Willochra" and associated dates, so many thanks.

I should have thought of putting his regiments etc.

Thank you,

jo

[ZackNZ]

No problem Jo

I've had a very quick look in both the Wellington and Canterbury histories but can't find any mention of him.

Zack

[jobroad]

No problem Jo

I've had a very quick look in both the Wellington and Canterbury histories but can't find any mention of him.

Zack

Thank you. I have looked in there before and found some mention, that's how we got him from the battlefiled up to Germany. But the next 7 months or so would be good to hunt out.

Perhaps someone somewhere has a letter or diary or even a book that mentions him. I will see if I can get from Father the parts of letters that mention Padre Dobson too, for Joanna.

Many thanks,

jo

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

The story of Maj Reid is mistaken;

REID James Moffat Capt 1 LHR A Sqn to Maj OC to T/2ic RHQ killed in charge at Popes post (G) NKG listed on Lone Pine Memorial Gallipoli AKA James Moffat-Reid

(ASqn/5 LH CMF) born 9-9-1881

Grazier 33 Tenterfield NSW

Enl 27-8-14 KIA 7-8-15

A Sqn under Maj Reid was the one cut to peices at Deadmans Ridge while B Sqn under Maj Glasgow suffered less.

A Sqn

Maj Reid KIA

Capt White Sqn 2ic WIA

A Troop - Lt Tinson DoW

B Troop - Lt MacMillan WIA

C Troop - Lt Weir WIA

D Troop - Lt Stewart WIA

B Sqn

Maj Glasgow

Capt Cox 2ic WIA

A Troop - Lt Nettleton KIA

B Troop - Lt Reid WIA

C Troop - Lt Harris WIA

D Troop - Sgt Buckett? (not ID who commanded)

S.B

[JoMH]

Hello Jo,

I am very excited about this! Thank you for getting in touch. I am going to look through my notes etc to see if I can come up with any pointers for that time just after the war ended. It's quite a blank for me too - though a lot less blank with this link between three chaplains.

Also, I will PM you. As you can imagine, I am very interested to hear about the letters from Clive Mortimer-Jones...

Joanna

[ZackNZ]

Jo - another small reference for you from NZEF Record of Personal services during the War complied by Lt Colonel John Studholme (1928)

Source page 171

Rev C M Jones

Highest rank held in NZEF Chaplain – date of first appointment 4/5/17 (4th class)

Attached 3rd Bn Cant Regt; 1st Bn Wellington Reg

Date struck off strength 18/2/18

Zack

[jobroad]

Hello Jo,

I am very excited about this! Thank you for getting in touch. I am going to look through my notes etc to see if I can come up with any pointers for that time just after the war ended. It's quite a blank for me too - though a lot less blank with this link between three chaplains.

Also, I will PM you. As you can imagine, I am very interested to hear about the letters from Clive Mortimer-Jones...

Joanna

Hi Joanna

Pleased to make contact! Here is an extract of CMJ's letter of 10 September, 1918. He wrote these letters for his church in Cambridge, and were published in the church magazine monthly.

"My Battalion was the next in it – we left at midnight of 21st and started to attack Loupart Wood at 4.30am on the 22nd (the 42nd Division had failed). By the 24th we had accomplished our task and established outposts and captured the machine guns. Our killed only numbered 20. We then went into reserve until midnight of the 27th, the 2nd Brigade taking over the line and pushing on with some of the Rifle Brigade on the left. On the 28th, Grevillers fell to the 2nd Battalion (Auckland) who then captured Avesnes-les-Bapaume with the 1st Wellington on their right. My Battalion had the honour of capturing Bapaume at 7.30am on the 29th. The attack started at 5.30am on the 30th with the 1st Auckland and 2nd Wellington in support, 1st Wellington and 2nd Auckland continued the offensive. The objective being the high ridge beyond Bapaume and thence beyond Fremicourt and Bancourt.

Here the fighting was very severe. The first ridge was gained but a violent counter-attack with tanks was made by the Hun on the 31st and we suffered heavy casualties, but soon reestablished our line. After being reinforced the attack proceeded and the second high ridge was gained and at 4.30am on the 2nd my Battalion was relieved by the 2nd Otagos. Next morning the Hun was nowhere to be seen, having retired during the night to a place where he is prepared to make another stand. The 2nd Brigade (South Island troops) are now following him up and have advanced eight miles to Havrincourt Wood to the Hindenburg line. The number of prisoners taken and guns captured is very large. But so much ground cannot be recaptured

without many casualties. I have spent the last few days in assisting Padre Dobson in collecting the bodies of our fallen heroes. We have buried 95 in a cemetery nearby and the graves of many of them are scattered over the battlefield. This Battalion had 67 killed and about 300 wounded. We probably had a larger part of the fighting and therefore suffered more heavily – except perhaps the 2nd Auckland. These are just the dry details of what was a magnificent performance, and of a splendid success. They were days full of deeds of heroism of cruel suffering and of devotion to duty. To go over the battlefield and see the machine-gun nests, the Hun tanks, the place where their anti-tank gun accounted for so many wounded, is to wonder how men could not only stand up and face it, but advance and capture those very guns. That the Bosche gunners are dead produces no regrets – though they must have been brave men to hold the line and thus give the rest time to retire. One afternoon a "circus" of 25 Hun 'planes came over dropping bombs and using their machine-guns on us in Loupart Wood. We could do nothing but try to take cover."

Then 2 December 1918,

"On 26th November I left with Padre Dobson (2nd Auckland) on a journey of four days in a motor lorry with twelve boys. We revisited most of the battlefield in search of graves that had not been marked and to see if the others were legible and in good condition. We went through Cambrai and other ruined villages to Bapaume thence through [bucquoy] to [Hebuterne], Mailly [Maillet], [Colincamps] and other places which the battle of the Somme had made familiar to you. We needed longer time but as far as possible had some success. For instance, with the help of boys who were present at that famous "stunt" on 31st March I was able to mark 26 graves near the sugar refinery by [Mailly Maillet]. All the military cemeteries of this area have been made neat and tidy by the G.R. unit. We returned through Grevillers, Bancourt, Metz[-en-Couture], Gouzeaucourt and [Crevecouer-sur-l'Escaut], etc., stopping many times to clear up some problem. Once to erase the name of a man who had since turne up as a prisoner of war! On our return, to our surprise, we found that Beauvois[-en- Cambresis] was empty. The Division had left en route for Germany that day, so without any tea, for our rations had failed us, we proceeded to "Dibby" H.Q. at [solesmes] and discovering where our Battalion were, we went on arriving at 10 pm and so we were able to march with our units the next day. We were in good condition for marching for the lorry had broken down one day and we had to walk in the rain 10 miles from Hebuterne to Grevillers. On the 29th my Battalion had marched 8 miles. On Saturday we did 13 and yesterday we did 6. Today we are having a rest at a place called St. Waast near to [bavay].

We are not yet out of the war area, for the houses are still without windows, but the villages are not in ruins, and each day the shell holes and signs of war grow less frequent. I shall never forget my journey through that terrible part, only a small portion of devastated France.

I went through 31 villages which were only ruined heaps – there was not a living soul in one of them except a few odd soldiers. The German people should be made to take a look through some of this area and see what war has left behind for these poor peasant people of France and Belgium.

We are expecting His Majesty the King here tomorrow."

The square brackets indicate that we have changed the CMJ's spelling of a place name.

Sorry, am new to this forum & I don't know what you mean when you say you will "PM" me!?

That's all that specifically mentions Padre Dobson. Hope the posting is not too long.

Do you have further information that fits in with this time?

jo

[jobroad]

Jo - another small reference for you from NZEF Record of Personal services during the War complied by Lt Colonel John Studholme (1928)

Source page 171

Rev C M Jones

Highest rank held in NZEF Chaplain – date of first appointment 4/5/17 (4th class)

Attached 3rd Bn Cant Regt; 1st Bn Wellington Reg

Date struck off strength 18/2/18

Zack

Hi Zack.

Thanks for this. Was curious about the struck off strength data though - he saw quite a lot of the action after Feb 1918. But then I found this comment in his letter of the time: "The Division is going through a process of re-organisation, the details of which I must not tell you. It may be that I shall be posted to another Battalion. Several of our officers and men have already been transferred."

Then in April he says he is posted as C of E pardre to 1st Battalion, Wellington Regiment.

Thank you for your interest.

jo

[JoMH]

Hi Jo,

Thank you so much for transcribing the extracts from the two letters. They are very thorough and evocative, and give me much to think about.

I had managed to locate Charles Dobson at Bapaume on 30th August 1918, when he earned the M.C. You have probably already seen the quote on post #21 of this thread, taken from 'The Auckland Regiment' by O E Burton.

Sadly, I have to say that I know next to nothing of what CD did (in Europe) after that date - except that in May 1919 he was married in Piraeus (!) and he travelled back to NZ on HMNZT 'Rimutaka' between Nov 1919 & January 1920. But, I have often wondered if he may have gone into Germany with other New Zealanders. Your search will prompt me to do a bit more than just 'wonder', and I will have a more thorough look, with Clive Mortimer-Jones in mind as well. Do you have an idea of how long the New Zealand Division formed part of the army of occupation?

Meanwhile, by 'PM', I meant send you a Personal Message via the Forum so that I could give you my e-mail address, but I have just remembered that you won't be able to receive it until you have made more posts - I don't know how many. Not to worry.

About 'struck off strength' - I confess that I have had my grandfather's war file in my possession for several months now, and don't really know what this phrase means exactly... Can you enlighten me?

Joanna

[JoMH]

Hi Jo,

I've had a quick look through 'The Official History of the Otago Regiment' by Lieut A E Byrne, MC - it is on line here.

Interestingly in chapter XXI he mentions: "On November 14th, on the outskirts of Beavois[?], the Regiment participated in a Thanksgiving Service held to mark the cessation of hostilities. On this occasion practically the whole Division was assembled."

Then a letter of farewell addressed to the NZ Division by Lieut -Gen Sir G M Harper is quoted. It gives an interesting summary of the NZ Division's role in IV Corps from 26th March 1918.

He mentions that the Otago Regt started its march into Germany on November 28th - confirming CMJ finding Beauvois empty.

"On December 1st a Church Service was held at Bavais[?] when H M the King and the Prince of Wales were present."

The march was of 170 miles and Bryne lists halting places and dates for his regiment.

He describes some of the work in Cologne, and finally states: "By the end of March the NZ Division had ceased to exist as an active unit on the Western Front." Which answers my question of how long the NZ Division formed part of the army of occupation.

Joanna

[JoMH]

And here is the link to 'The New Zealand Artillery in The Field.' by Lieut J R Byrne (was he a relation of A E Byrne, I wonder?). It describes their activities from October 1918 to demobilisation, and includes the march to Cologne and some details of their time there.