JoMH Posted 6 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 6 May , 2009 Thanks Zack, That gives me something to look into. I will PM Terry Kinloch. I found a picture (in fact 2) of Grant's grave on the "Timeframes" site. The grave was not found/identified later - after the war. Today (yesterday for you, I suppose) is the anniversary of Charles Dobson's death in Lisbon. 1930 - from typhoid. My mother says that he was given a blood transfusion of the wrong blood type. Joanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMH Posted 8 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 May , 2009 Here is another mention of Hill 60 and the death of Chaplain Grant - including a photo of Grant taken "about one hour before his death". Joanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 Joanna A dreadful photo but it was taken by Rev E O Blamires CF and Waite wouldn’t have included it if it was not legitimate. You would have to have known Grant well to have identified that it was a picture of him which of course Blamires did! Zack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 10 May , 2009 Share Posted 10 May , 2009 Joanna Here's a better photo of William Grant: Zack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMH Posted 10 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 10 May , 2009 Thanks, Zack - this photograph of Chaplain Grant really puts the face to the story. The one I found, which shows him walking away from the camera - the back of his head - gave me quite a shock because it was taken so close to his death. Joanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMH Posted 10 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 10 May , 2009 About the discrepancy in accounts of Chaplain Grant's death by shooting or bayoneting: I have contacted Terry Kinloch to ask what his sources are for the bayoneting account. The discrepancy is interesting, not least because it hints at more sources for me to pursue... Joanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 10 May , 2009 Share Posted 10 May , 2009 Yes it does put a human face on the bones so to speak! I have also traced a photo of Chaplain Captain C J H Dobson which I will post soon - clearer than the previous posting. Cheers Zack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMH Posted 10 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 10 May , 2009 Thanks Zack, That would be wonderful! Joanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMH Posted 19 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 19 May , 2009 Terry Kinloch has very kindly clarified his sources for the incident on 28th August 1915 when Chaplain Grant was killed. In his e-mail he says: "There is a reference to Grant's death in Wilkie, on pages 65-66, but not the manner of his death. Rev Dobson is not mentioned by name - he is referred to as 'another clergyman'. Wilkie does not mention how Grant died - just that he was killed. The Andrews reference (Kiwi Trooper) states (p.130): 'The padre was bayoneted instantly before they recognised his Red Cross armband, but his comrade was spared.' The comrade is un-named." "Twisleton does refer to Grant's death in a letter, but I don't have that source to hand." In response to the suggestion that Blamires chose to describe Grant's death by shooting rather than bayoneting in order to soften the blow for his widow, Terry says: "This is entirely possible. A death by shooting does make more sense - a Turk firing his rifle would be an instantaneous reaction, whereas a bayoneting is a bit more personal, and takes a bit more time - time in which to see the Red Cross armband and hold off." Joanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMH Posted 27 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2009 A couple of texts which refer to Chaplain Grant and his death at Hill 60. From Papers Past From Wilkie's 'History of the Wellington Mounted Rifles' see pages 66, 67. Joanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMH Posted 30 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 30 May , 2009 I have ordered the Otago Mounted Rifles war diaries (also 2nd Auckland Battalion which Dobson joined later in 1916), and hope to glean some more information from them on OMR movements in 1915. Archives New Zealand tell me there is a backlog of about a month... Joanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 30 May , 2009 Share Posted 30 May , 2009 Joanna Good luck! I look forward to hearing more. Zack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMH Posted 31 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 31 May , 2009 I'm confused! Perhaps someone can help me. What is the difference between 'The Otago Mounted Rifles', 'The Otago Rifles' and 'The Otago Battalion'? In Zack's 'Military Chaplains & what they got up to' thread, John Duncan mentions Rev George King. At the foot of his letter (King's), he is mentioned as being with the 'Otago and Mounted Rifles in the Dardanelles'. Then, earlier in this thread, Boy Soldier refers to the book 'Quinn's Post' as mentioning the 'Otago Mounted Rifles'. On looking through the index, I could find mention of the 'Otago Battalion', and in the bibliography under the Peter Liddle Collection I see mention of 'Otago Battalion' and 'Otago Mounted Rifles'. I can't find it at the moment, but I believe the OMRs sailed from New Zealand on two ships - No 5 'Ruapehu' and No 9 'Hawkes Bay', with Rev Dobson (C of E) on 'Ruapehu' and Rev King (Presbyterian) on 'Hawkes Bay' - thus giving the OMRs two chaplains(?) It's hard to explain my confusion in an unconfused way! But if someone could clarify the use of 'The Otago Mounted Rifles', 'The Otago Rifles' and 'The Otago Battalion' and the distinctions between them, I imagine things will become more clear. Joanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 31 May , 2009 Share Posted 31 May , 2009 Joanna The terms do get mixed up a little but they are titles given to very different sets of NZ soldiers. The Otago Mounted (OMR) were, as their name implies, Mounted riflemen - they took horses with them to Egypt. Anachronisms even in their own time in that they had to leave their horses behind in Egypt! They landed in Gallipoli on 12 May 1915. Half these Otago Mounted men who served on Gallipoli died or were wounded (727 and 1239 respectively.) 423 men, 21 officers and 487 horses of the OMR, less one squadron, sailed from Port Chalmers on HMNZT No 9 Hawke's Bay. 6 Officers, 152 men and 169 horses OMR sailed from Port Chalmers to Wellington on HMNZT No 5 Ruapehu. The Otago Infantry Battalion (OIB) on the other hand was comprised of: 4 (Otago) Company, 8th (Southland) Company, 10th (North Otago) Company and 14th (South Otago) Company. They did not have horses and were infantry men. These troops landed on 25 April 1915. The poor Otago Infantry Battalion was virtually decimated on a “red letter day” Sunday May 2 1915 – over 800 killed out of just over a 1,000! A company had 200 men and a Battalion a 1,000 was the rough order of head count. In terms of chaplains the following was the Main Body distribution: HMNZT No 3: Maunganui sailing from Wellington, (NZEF HQ, NZ Signal Troop, NZ Field Troop Engineers, N.Z. Mounted Field Ambulance, Army Pay Department, Naval Transport, West Coast Company, Wellington Infantry): Rev J A Luxford (Methodist) HMNZT No 4 Tahiti sailing from Lyttelton to Wellington, (Canterbury Mounted Rifles Regiment, less 2 Squadrons and Base Details, 1 Squadron Wellington Mounted Rifles Regiment, 1 company and 1st Line Transport, Canterbury Infantry Battalion, Naval transports, Medical Officer to Divisional Troops): Rev HL Blamires (Methodist) HMNZT No 5 Ruapehu sailing from Port Chalmers to Wellington, (1 Squadron Otago Mounted Rifles Regiment, Canterbury Mounted Rifles Regiment, Otago Infantry Battalion, less 2 Companies and Machine Gun Section, HQ Brigade, Naval Transport): Rev GW Ross (Presbyterian) HMNZT No 6 Orari sailing from Wellington, (Personnel Headquarters Mounted Rifles Brigade, East Coast Squadron and 2 troops Wellington Mounted Rifles Regiment, Personnel Headquarters Infantry Brigade, first Line Transport, Wellington infantry Battalion, N.Z. Field Ambulance): Rev W Grant (Presbyterian) HMNZT No 7 Limerick sailing from Wellington, (NZ Field Artillery, Wellington Mounted Rifles, NZ Field Ambulance, number 7 and 8 platoons, Wellington infantry Battalion, Naval transport, NZ Field Ambulance, N.Z. Mounted Field Ambulance): C J Bush-King (Anglican) HMNZT No 8 Star of India sailing from Auckland to Wellington, (HQ staff NZEF, Auckland Mounted Rifles Regiment, New Zealand Field Ambulance): Rev G Thornton (Baptist) HMNZT No 9 Hawkes Bay sailing from Port Chalmers to Wellington, (1 Squadron Otago Mounted Rifles Regiment, Canterbury Mounted Rifles Regiment, Otago Infantry Battalion less 2 Companies and Machine Gun Section, HQ Infantry Brigade, Naval Transport): Rev GW Ross (Presbyterian). HMNZT No 10 Arawa sailing from Wellington (Wellington Infantry Battalion, less West Coast company and Nos 7 and 8 platoons, Headquarters, Machine-Gun Section, and 1 Squadron (less 2 troops) Wellington Mounted Rifles Regiment, Field Artillery Brigade, Signal Troop, Engineers (less wireless detachment), Naval Transports, N.Z. Mounted Field Ambulance): Rev C H J Dobson (Anglican) and Adjutant A Greene (Salvation Army). HMNZT No 11 Athenic sailing from Lyttelton to Wellington, (Personal HQ Mounted Rifles Brigade, 2 squadrons and Base Details, Canterbury Mounted Rifles Regiment, Wellington Mounted Rifles Regiment, Canterbury Infantry Battalion, less 1 company, Naval Transport, NZ Mounted Field Ambulance): Rev T F Taylor (Anglican), Father J McMenamin (Roman Catholic). HMNZT No 12 Waimana sailing from Auckland to Wellington (HQ staff NZEF, Auckland Mounted Rifles Regiment, Auckland Infantry Battalion, N.Z. Signal Company, New Zealand Divisional Trains, NZ Field Ambulance): Rev P W Clarkson (Anglican), Father P Dore (Roman Catholic). The above transports all left Wellington on 16 October 1914. The numbering of the transports starts at "3" because two earlier transports in August 1914 had been dispatched with NZ troops to occupy (German) Samoa. Source: New Zealand Expeditionary Force Europe 1914 War Diary 1915 While chaplains initially were allocated to particular regiments they provided pastoral care and religious support to men of their particular religious profession irrespective of which regiment etc a man belonged to. Zack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMH Posted 1 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 1 June , 2009 Zack, Many thanks for that! There's quite a bit of information there to sharpen my thinking. Joanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMH Posted 13 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 13 June , 2009 I had made the assumption that Dobson sailed on the 'Ruapehu' simply because I had seen that this ship carried Otago Mounted Rifles. Discovering that, in fact, he sailed on the 'Arawa' is a lesson in the dangers of making assumptions! Joanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMH Posted 13 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 13 June , 2009 Does anyone have any information on Major H C Nutsford? I believe he was Commanding Officer of OMR in July 1915. Joanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 13 June , 2009 Share Posted 13 June , 2009 Joanna Some information to be going on with: Surname NUTSFORD Given Name Henry Charles Category Nominal Roll Vol. 1 Regimental Number 9/628 Rank Major Body or Draft Main Body Unit or Regiment Otago Mounted Rifles Marital Status S Last NZ Address Argyle St Remuera Auckland Next of Kin Title Thomas Next of Kin Surname NUTSFORD Next of Kin Relationship Father Next of Kin Address Paparoa via Helensville Source: Nominal Roll Major 5/8/14 2nd in Command Regiment struck off strength 15/11/16 Source: NZEF Record of personal services during the war compiled by Lt Colonel John Studholme Page 229 http://muse.aucklandmuseum.com/databases/C...8&Ordinal=1 http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?OID=7856705 Zack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 14 June , 2009 Share Posted 14 June , 2009 Joanna Some more information for you: NEW ZEALAND AND WORLD WAR ONE WANGANUI COLLEGIATE SCHOOL ROLL OF HONOUR 1914 – 1918 Student number: 233a Name: Henry Charles Nutsford Attended Wanganui Collegiate School 1879 / 1881 War service: 1914/18 Major Gallipoli Egypt MBE Papers Past articles: Evening Post volume LXXXV111, issue 11, 13 July 1914, page 8 Defence changes New appointments made Administrative side His Excellency the Governor General (Lord Liverpool) has approved the following appointments which will be notified in this week's Gazette: Capt HC Nutsford, NZSC, instructor in mounted duties at Auckland, to be Assistant Quartermaster General at Auckland, vice Captain R S Matthews NZSC. Personal matters Evening Post, volume XC, Issue XC, 7 October 1915, page 2 Major H C Nutsford, NZMC, will succeed Col Arthur Bauchop (killed in action) in the command of the Otago Mounted rifles. Major Nutsford was seeking the command would be left with the Main Expeditionary Force. WHO'S WHO GOING TO THE WAR Evening Post, Volume LXXXVIII, Issue 74, 24 September 1914, Page 3 Major HC Nutsford Major H C Nutsford, second in command on the headquarters staff of the Otago Mounted Rifles Regiment, is a New Zealander in everything except birth, having been born in Alnwick, Northumberland (England). He was educated at Tokomairio Grammar School, and later Wanganui College. When old enough he took up land in the North of Auckland, and followed the pursuit of sheep farming for a number of years. While at college he was in the Cadet Corps, and in the year 1900 he assisted to form the Otamatea Mounted Rifles, and took a great interest in that corps, being promoted to the post of Lieutenant within 12 months. Shortly afterwards he was appointed officer commanding the squadron, and he occupied this position till 1907, when he returned to Auckland as adjutant of the 1st Regiment, Auckland Rifles. On the initiation of the territorial scheme he joined the New Zealand Staff Corps in Auckland, and on passing his promotion exam in 1912 he became permanent adjutant of the 3rd (Auckland) Mounted Rifles. He was next appointed to the position of major in the Auckland Mounted Rifles Brigade. More recently he acted as AAG, QMG, to the Auckland district, and on war breaking out, he accepted his present commission. Grey River Argus and Blackball News Grey River Argus, 14 August 1919, Page 2 Under the system of reorganisation brought into force by the Defence Department a number of changes will take place in the Auckland district staff. Major H Nutsford has been appointed staff major for quartermaster general's duties now known as “Q” duties, the position of quartermaster general having been abolishd. Zack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMH Posted 14 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 14 June , 2009 Zack, Many, many thanks - again. Apparently, Nutsford wrote up the OMR war diary for July 1915, and mentioned the OMR Anglican Padre - unfavourably, it has to be said! Not by name, so I'm not 100% certain the reference is to Rev Dobson. Another example of theological differences, it seems. Perhaps when I receive copies of the war diaries I will be able to shed more light on who was where - and when - though I am not counting on it. Joanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 15 June , 2009 Share Posted 15 June , 2009 Joanna I will be very interest in getting your view of the OMR war diary as I've only found fragments! Zack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMH Posted 15 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 15 June , 2009 Zack, I am not over optimistic as to the extent of the remains of the OMR war diaries, but I will let you know what I have when they arrive here. Apparently, the July 1915 diary was missing, so Nutsford wrote a summary of operations for that month in September. Joanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 16 June , 2009 Share Posted 16 June , 2009 Jo, Are you also getting the Otago MR war diaries for its time in France? Thats the time frame I am looking at so any help here would be good. Cheers S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMH Posted 16 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 16 June , 2009 Hi Steve, My order for OMR war diaries isn't finalised yet. Not just Archives, but delay caused by me being away for a couple of weeks. I believe the diaries go up to 1916. Will keep you posted. Joanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMH Posted 17 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 17 June , 2009 Steve, I've had another look at NZ Archives before finalising my order. This is what they say about their series of records on the OMR. This series was used by Archives New Zealand to describe records created and received by the Otago Mounted Rifles. This unit was part of the New Zealand Expeditionary Force (1NZEF) that fought in the First World War. The Otago Mounted Rifles was a unit of divisional troops separate to the New Zealand Mounted Rifles Brigade. However, the unit served as part of the Brigade on Gallipoli. In January 1916 the Otago Mounted Rifles were reduced to squadron strength, and went to France as part of the New Zealand Division. However, in France they became part of Sodley's II ANZAC Mounted Regiment, a Corps unit. (See WA160). The records in this series have been arranged into four subseries - 42/1 War Diaries, 42/2 Routine Orders, 42/3 Unit Records, and 42/4 Miscellaneous. So I'm not sure how much my order will help you as regards to France just yet, I'm afraid. I'm going to take a look at 'WA160' on Archway. Joanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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