Ancestors- TONIGHT!

[Alastair Fraser]

Dear All

Journey into Hell

This programme has obviously created quite a lot of interest and I thought I might bring people up to date on one or two points. The archaeology was carried out by members of Nomansland (formerly Trench Team). The team for the Serre dig were all professional archaeologists taking time off from their jobs to do the work. They were working under considerable constraints due to the time and the weather. I am the project historian for Nomansland and, although not present at the dig, have done a considerable amount of post-excavation work on the three casualties that were recovered and I am sure people would like to know progress on this aspect.

The British casualty was from the King's Own (Royal Lancaster) Regiment and was killed on 1st July 1916 or perhaps on the morning of the 2nd July. I have managed to narrow him down to 1 of 73 men but there sadly seems no prospect of getting it down any further. I am told he will at least get a date on his headstone and is to be buried at Serre Road No. 2 cemetery only yards away.

German no. 1 (the first body to be discovered) has been identified and his family traced in Germany. Extraordinarly one of his sons is still alive! There were a number of indications on his uniform and equipment that he was probably a 1915 or 1916 casualty. Coins on the body showed he could not be 1914. A damaged first pattern ID disc was found with the body which indicated he was from 7 Kompanie of a reserve regiment. A fragmentary inscription on the back of the disc could have been a name but we could make little sense of it.

I got in touch with Ralph Whitehead through this forum and he was able to provide a casualty list for the regiment I suspected the man was from (121 Reserve Regiment, 26 Reserve Division). On looking at the lists for 7 Kompanie Jakob Hones showed up as the only possibility, fitting neatly what we could read on the disc. He was as I suspected killed on 13 June 1915 when 7 Kompanie launched a counterattack against French forces trying to take Serre. He was 35 year old farm labourer from near Stuttgart, married with 6 children. The probable cause of death was a French rifle bullet found in the chest area. Investigations into Hones are ongoing; we hope to get more information from the family, perhaps even photographs, and I will keep everybody informed.

German no. 2 is a senior NCO from a Wurttemberg regiment but we cannot yet say which. A packet of papers of some kind were recovered from under his body and are currently being conserved. The results of this work are due shortly and we are hopeful we might get a name for him as well. Again I will keep people posted.

The investigation on these casualties is a collaborative effort and I have to thank Ralph in particular for his painstaking work on German casualty lists. We have exchanged a lot of information and hopefully driven each others research on quite a bit. It is also worth saying that I would probably not have tracked him down (at least not as easily) if it had not been for this forum. A salute to Mr Racing Teapots who alerted me to it. Thanks are due to our German member Volker Hartmann who has traced the Hones family for us and also done work on the boot polish tin. The department store that sold it still exists in Stuttgart although not on the same site. Paul Blackett has given advice and lent reference books on the German Army that greatly assisted.

If anybody has any questions, comments or can supply any further information I would be pleased to hear from them. I emphasise however that I don't want to get into any discussions about the morality and does and don'ts of the dig. It is not that I don't have opinions on this but I was not actually there and these sort of exchanges can get fairly heated. That said I am happy to answer any questions if I can.

Regards

Alastair Fraser

Project Historian, Nomansland; the European Group for Great War Archaeology

[Tim Birch]

Alastair

Thank you for your most informative post, which I found most interesting.

Tim

[Mark A]

Alastair,

I can only echo Tim's sentiment- a fascinating post and I congratulate you on the results of what must be painstaking research. Oh, and well done the forum!

Mark

[Paul Reed]

The British casualty was from the King's Own (Royal Lancaster) Regiment and was killed on 1st July 1916 or perhaps on the morning of the 2nd July. I have managed to narrow him down to 1 of 73 men but there sadly seems no prospect of getting it down any further. I am told he will at least get a date on his headstone and is to be buried at Serre Road No. 2 cemetery only yards away.

Thanks for an interesting update.

I am presuming you have looked into the movements of the King's Own in November 1916 and in 1918, just to make sure this wasn't a later casualty?

In the film one of your colleagues stated the body was found with a Small Box Respirator (SBR), which was not in use in July 1916 - was he wrong?

[ianw]

I note Paul's comments with interest and look forward to Alastair's response.

Is it normal CWGC proceedure to attempt to place a date on unknown graves when the regiment is known with a fair degree of certitude ? To me, "An Unknown Soldier of the Royal Lancaster regiment" is perfectly adequate. The addition of a specific date in circumstances where there is any doubt, smacks of rather gilding the historical lily.

The fact that 2 battalions of the regiment in question fought in very close geographical proximity both in July and November 1916 surely makes definitive dating impossible ?

[Guest jon price]

Re what was and wasnt on the programme:

The archaeologists are not the producers or the editors. We said (and were filmed saying) quite a lot during the excavation. We will be publishing ALL the information as soon as we write it up.

We happened to dig at Serre because the BBC funded it, but all our work takes place in a context of developing techniques and answering research questions. This helps show how to avoid destructive practices that make IDing bodies more difficult

My helmet had writing on it, not as a pose, but because this programme was called ancestors and these were mine. I listed all their data including cemetries, or missing soldiers monuments, hence Croonaert. I knew the programme was not going to talk about our motivation for being there so I made it visible.

Jon Price

NoMansLand

[Old Chap]

I enjoyed the programme very much but was slightly disappointed in the ending.It's a shame that a longer period couldn't have been spent excavating the area. Still, we should be grateful the BBC forked out the money in the first place. My grate uncle was killed on the same battlefield in November 1916 and is buried in Serre Road no.2 cemetery. I would like to add that while some people would prefer the fallen to stay in their final resting place, i for one prefer the soldiers to be interred in a cemetery. If the bodies can be idientified ( the two German's have been) surely it is the right thing to do, so the relatives can visit the grave and show their respects?

Bill

[Chris_Baker]

Alastair, Jon, Nigel

Just wanted to thank you for coming onto the forum to tell us more. The legions of "Baker's pals" are a tough and questioning audience!

[Martin Brown]

I was senior archaeologist on the project at Serre. My own views follow but hey concur with others on the team.

The BBC funded us to do the work. We finished after a week because the BBC money was finite. The team was made up of professional archaeologists who all work in the Great War field in addition to doing day jobs. While we didn't find the dug out we did get a week to hone our techniques on a well-preserved piece of Front. We were able to recover three caualties with respect and high scientific standards, working closely with the authorities. Furthermore, even where names are not forthcoming I think the act of restoring the humanity of the skeleton, through examination of artefacts, is valuable to history but is also a real act of remembrance. We also fully recorded our work to professional standards and will, as Jon said, be publishing in due course.

Although I have issues with the final film, including many expressed here, I'm glad the overall response has been favourable. Personally, I was annoyed that German 2, with his flint, wasn't featured because finding him was a hugely significant moment for me (and I was filmed saying that). Whatever, I feel the fact that we showed the contribution archaeology can make, even on a battlefield one might think was utterly pulverised, was important.

I believe we did a good job in interesting circumstances and am hugely grateful to the map and air photo experts, to our support team (Alistair and Volker) and to the members of our international excavation team. The support given by Newfoundland and Ulster memorials was invaluable too.

[Ken Lees]

I have just watched the programme for the second time, after reading the comments on the Forum. I was initially critical of a number of aspects of the programme, primarily because it didn't do what it suggested it would - to find the dugout. As I watched it I wondered if there was really any possibilty of finding it.

I didn't post my initial reaction and I'm now of the view that a great deal of effort went into this production and for that we should all be very grateful. The producers of this type of documentary are always going to be in a difficult situation and compromises are inevitable. Compared to the average viewer we, whatever our depth of knowledge, are relatively 'expert' and the programme could never be aimed at us. That said, there were mistakes which should not have been made such as the Lewis/Vickers confusion.

All of the people involved did our interest/hobby a great service by their professional, considerate approach to the subject, although it did jar when I heard it said that "we have to treat the site with due reverence because we have found a British soldier here". Perhaps not the exact wording, but it was after the German body had been found and displayed an apparent lack of respect for the German dead. I'm sure that the comment was not intended to come across as it did, but surely it should have been noticed and edited out.

The other thing that I found annoying was the repetition of various parts of the letters - "I'm not at the front, I'm in front of it" and other quotes were repeated up to three times. Since there was so much that must have been left out to fit into a very tight 50 minute programme, I felt that this was unnecessary.

The depth of knowledge displayed by all those involved especially the diggers, was the best part of the programme for me and I was so absorbed at times that I felt like I was watching over their shoulders as they did their work.

I hope that the public reaction to the programme was good and that we see more of this subject on television. I'm sure I'm not the only one who was green-eyed with envy at the thought of being involved in such a project.

I would be interested to ask a few questions of those involved in the project:

Was it envisaged that you would actually find a dugout, or were you really looking for the site of one? Did the project actually take us any further to knowing where the dugouts were in this section of the line?

Is the type of geophysical surveying that we see on programmes such as Time Team impractical in areas such as the Western Front frontline? Would there be any techniques that could have been applied in this respect that weren't, for other reasons?

And finally, thanks to everyone involved in the programme, especially those who have taken the time to post here on the Forum.

Regards,

Ken

[Martin Brown]

Was it envisaged that you would actually find a dugout, or were you really looking for the site of one? Did the project actually take us any further to knowing where the dugouts were in this section of the line?

Is the type of geophysical surveying that we see on programmes such as Time Team impractical in areas such as the Western Front frontline? Would there be any techniques that could have been applied in this respect that weren't, for other reasons?

Like much other archaeology this was a case of knowing the general area and giving it our best shot based on the evidence we had. We probably missed finding a dug out by a matter of feet. What we know now is where they aren't We did find a mine entrance but they weren't too bothered by that, as it clouded the issue for the film!

I had suggested geofizz to the BBC when we were planning the project but the budget wasn't gong to stretch that far. I think geofizz is also seen as TT's trademark! I've used resistivity on the Front to mixed results and we're trying magnetometry later in the year, all being well. Geofizz might work but it's not been tried sufficiently to say.

[nshighlander]

Why is it these types of shows are never shown in Can/US?Did someone copy it?

Or did I miss something?

Cheers

Dave

[ianw]

I'd like to thank those concerned with the excavation for taking the time to come onto the Forum and share their most interesting thoughts on it. I am sure they can see there is an appatite for more and most of us will agree that the Western Front cries out for more excavations.

To all concerned, thanks for the programme. Any criticism is intended to be creative.

[Stephen Barker]

This has been a fascinating thread. A big thank you to all the archaeologists who have come onto explain their work on the forum. It's much appreciated.

Stephen Barker

[Alastair Fraser]

Dear All

Thanks for the comments on my previous posts. Also thanks to Jon and Martin who have given some of the background to the dig which I hope has cleared up one or two things.

Firstly Martin's identification of the Small Box Respirator was indeed incorrect although hardly surprising when faced with the jumble of material in front of him. He will however do three circuits of Auchonvillers in a PH helmet next month before he gets any dinner. Later examination confirmed that the remains were those of a PH helmet and a set of tear gas goggles.

There was a reference to the possibility that the British casualty could have come from another battalion of the King's Own by which I assume is meant 8th King's Own, 76th Brigade, 3rd Division. They were the left hand battalion in the second wave of the Brigade's attack on Walter and Serre Trenches on 13 November 1916. Apparently only D Company got near the German line before retiring. They suffered 23 fatal casualties during their tour up to 19th November. Of these 11 men are recorded as having no known grave. I cannot trace a further man 10940 Cpl Francis Geddes on the CWGC database so have to presume he is also unaccounted for. 76th Brigade's southern boundary was at least 1000 yards north of the Heidenkopf/Quadilateral position. Our man would have had to cross half the frontage of his own brigade, the whole front of 8th Brigade and half the front of 6th Brigade (of another division) to have ended up on the north face of the Heidenkopf. I agree that things were confused on that morning, it was foggy, the terrain was a featureless swamp and there are numerous references to 2nd and 3rd Division troops getting mixed up. It is certainly not impossible that an individual could have strayed that far but I believe that there is a far stronger case for the body being that of a 1st Battalion man. They are known without doubt to have been where the body was found on 1st and 2nd July and the situation in the position at that time is summed up by a quote from the history of 121 Reserve Infantry Regiment who were the garrison. "There were about 150 German dead in the Heidenkopf in a relatively small area and about three times that number of English." They managed to bury most of their own dead in a cemetery near the Feste Soden in the intermediate line and also some British dead, but hardly all of the 450 or so lying around the Heidenkopf. Men of I/121 RIR counted 1200 dead in front of their position and there were 576 in front of II/121 RIR. It must have been a ghastly sight. Nearly all of these men were from 4th Division and would have included a proportion of 1/King's Own casualties.

It has been suggested to me that the tear gas goggles are more indicative of a July 1916 date than November and I would welcome any information on this. I think the PH hood and the coin evidence (none dated later than 1915) would rule out a 1918 casualty. From previous research I am not aware of any King's Own battalions in the area in 1918 although I admit I have not checked. If anybody has copies of the war diaries of 1st or 8th King's Own I would be keen to see them as I do not have copies. If there is good evidence for the presence of 8th King's Own troops in the Heidenkopf in November 1916, believe me, you will have my undivided attention.

Finally with regard to the possibility of a date on the headstone I was repeating what I was told by another project member who is in regular touch with CWGC staff who have carried out their own research. I personally think there is a good argument for believing the soldier to have died on 1st or possibly 2nd July 1916 but, as you will be aware, what the CWGC do is entirely outside my control.

I look forward to your comments.

Regards

Alastair Fraser

[Drummy]

Alastair,

Out of interest can you tell us more of the European Group for Great War Archaeology, what projects is it involved with on the Western Front? Has the group made any other interesting discoveries? Thanks Neil.

[Alastair Fraser]

Dear Neil

Nomansland is what was previously Trench Team but we decided to change the name as we tended to get confused with another group with the same initials. The full title also reflects our European make-up (not forgetting our American honourary member the mighty Ralph Whitehead!). We currently have British, German and Belgian members which I think justifys the sub-title.

We have been going in one form or another since 1997 when Avril William's invited us to investigate her cellar and a communication trench running along the side of her house in Auchonvillers. We have been excavating on that site since 1998 for about a week each year. As Avril has now acquired further property in the village we will also be looking at that over Easter. There are a couple of c/ts and what seems to be a piece of one of the "keeps" built by the British in the winter/spring of 1915/16. The finds have been a mixed bunch of material, much dumped in from the surface, probably at the end of the war, a mixture of French and British military debris, ammunition, tins, rum jars, rolls of barbed wire (58 at the last count) and personal items such as harmonicas, cap badges, toothbrushes, etc. The trench has a brick floor and there are a number of references in the documentary evidence to this. Our handiwork and some of the finds can be seen at 10 Rue Delattre, Auchonvillers where you can pick up a good cup of tea and a bite to eat at the same time.

I have been researching the Auchonvillers sector since 1998 looking at how it functioned. We have also been trying to tell the story of the French civilian population which is also very significant and by way of comparison I have been investigating the German garrison of Beaumont Hamel. I started off thinking that the area has been pretty well covered - books by Nigel Cave and Paul Reed, the Malins film footage for example but there is a wealth of information still untapped. Our only major gap is French Army material with which I have made little progress, so if anybody out there has information on French 21st Division or units of XI Corps please let me know. Publication of the results is looking good for sometime this year. Any assistance given by outsiders, and there has been a massive amount, is always gratefully received and properly acknowledged.

I do a series of talks on the project if you are interested; there is a basic introduction (badly in need of updating in the light of recent events), a look at tactical intelligence gathering (trench raids, aerial recce, signals intelligence, etc)on both sides 1915/16 with some interesting material on German knowledge of the Somme offensive and the third is a look at the German Army in the sector 1914/16. I am preparing another one on the 1918 period from both sides.

This has turned out to be another wordy post but I hope that it answers some of your questions. Get back to me if you would like to know more.

Regards

Alastair

[Martin Brown]

For those of you who want to know more about the "Owen" excavation there are three opportunities in July:

Thursday 15th July

National Army Museum

13:00

Wilfred Owen & the Serre Dug-out

Sunday 25th July

National Army Museum

Battlefield Archaeology Conference

Details on NAM website shortly

Tuesday 27th July

DLI Museum

14:00

Archaeology of the Western Front

There's also a wider Battlefield Archaeology session at the Insitute of Field Archaeologists conference in Liverpool on April 8th, when I'll be speaking on the Western Front.

[Jacky Platteeuw]

I am very impressed by the comments of the different people who worked and were involved in the programme and congratulate them.

In the mean time I see that at least one German soldier has been positively indentified which is just GREAT. I would be interested to know where and how this identification took place.

Jacky

[Drummy]

Alaistair,

Many thanks for your very interesting reply. Thanks Neil.

[Alastair Fraser]

Dear Jacky

With reference to the identification of the German soldier you may have noticed already my post of Monday 15th March on this subject. If not that should tell you what you need to know. There is material on two threads about this topic which I have found a bit confusing, the other being in the Chit-chat section.

Let me know if I can give you any further information.

Regards

Alastair

[guy taylor]

Dear All,

Regarding the use of geofizz (to use Martin's Archaeological Dictionary) - there was a very interesting article (well to some) in Archaeological Prospection, Volume 8, Issue 1, March 2001, Pages: 67-77:

Magnetic prospecting of diachronic structures (antiquity to First World War) on the site of the sanctuary of Ribemont-sur-Ancre (Somme, France) - Gilles Bossuet, Christian Camerlynck, Carine Brehonnet, Christophe Petit.

The authors were really more interested in Celtic and Gallo-Roman remains, but this area, a couple of miles SW of Albert, was overrun and then fortified by the Germans during Operation Michael.

By matching British reconnaissance photos, courtesy of the IWM, against the plot of geophysical anomalies (obtained using a caesium magnetometer) they were able to subtract the 20th century features from those of antiquity. The reverse process applies if your primary interest is WW1.

As for the Lewis Gun / Vickers error - this sort of thing happens all the time. Sometimes film clips (or stills) are incorrectly captioned/indexed and very often the researcher is someone who has very little detailed knowledge of the subject. At least in this case it was another British machine gun. In a Channel 5 programme about heroes, a few months ago, a reference to British troops knocking out German tanks near Arras in 1940 was illustrated with a still of an American GI with a bazooka !! Even John Giles book "The Western Front, then and now" has a completely incorrect and misleading caption to one picture.

Regards,

Guy

[ianw]

Pleased to advise that a DVD copy of this programme has crossed the Atlantic and should be heading from Ralph to Cynthia within the next week or so. If any US Pals want to view this DVD I would suggest they please advise Cynthia. You will need a multi-region capable DVD player to watch it though.

[Guest Nicholas Hemming]

Interesting project, shame about the commentary. I was under the impression that there was quite a bit going on between July 2nd. and the end of the battle in November? Any casual viewer is unlikely to have appreciated this, and will certainly be none the wiser as to what a Lewis Gun looks like! How can you spend around forty five minutes discussing the Somme without even mentioning the French army? That really annoys me; our closest allies made a rather considerable contribution to the Battle of the Somme, n'est pas?

Pretty much the sort of thing I was expecting generally - the war did produce some truly great poets, which is probably why most of the British public have allowed them to write the history for us. The 'all for nothing' closing line was entirely predictable. The fact that a German general later described the Somme as the 'graveyard of the German army' was (rather conveniently) left out. I suppose such a quote is a little too challenging to the 'received wisdom' about the Great War.

NH