burlington Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 This was flagged on the Forum earlier but looking at the TV listings just now I realised that I had forgotten all about it ( ) hence this very quick posting for others in my position. It is about Wilfred Owen and the Heidenkopf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burlington Posted 13 March , 2004 Author Share Posted 13 March , 2004 Preceded by a programme about the Spartans at Thermopylae. Should be a good evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 Excellent programme - the 2 mills bombs in the path on the farm & the livens mortar shell absolutely gobsmacked my wife! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludovica Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 Amazing programme! Very moving Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.r.f Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 Absolutly first class.Thanks for flagging it up or I would have missed it. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KateJ Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 Extremely moving programme. The numbers for everything were gobsmacking. Kate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davedixon Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 The programme was too generalised for me. I expected it to concentrate on the archaeology more, which is what this series used to be about. Nice to see Paul though. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 Nicely captured the unique atmosphere of the Somme and it's range of weather. Vividly illustrated how much archaeology needs to be done out there. What was the unit of the British soldier found and where will his place of burial be ? Being harrassed by children at the time, but did I see them illustrate the finding of the Lewis ammunition with footage of a Vickers ? Tend to agree that it featured less archaeology than programmes in the series that are based on much older excavations. But these programmes can never be long enough and the Owen writings were interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Dodd Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 Being harrassed by children at the time, but did I see them illustrate the finding of the Lewis ammunition with footage of a Vickers ? Yes I noticed that as well. A good program on the whole and hopefully more like it to come in the future Conor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinglma Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 I really enjoyed the programme - and in a moment I'm going to watch it again on video (well either that or an episode of casualty...) Given a 50 minute format and an audience who largely will never heard of Serre it is always going to be too generalised for some but I thought this was one of the better programmes of its type. Nice to see Mr Reed as well - you came across well Paul. Anybody able to explain the 'battle honours' on the archaeologists safety helmet. I made out Croonaert, Messines and Menin Gate amongst others. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 I believe the British soldier was identified as belonging to the Kings Lancaster Regiment but there is not enough to identify him by name. Work is ongoing with the two German remains and it appears one might be identified while work is ongoing with items found on the second body. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ypresman Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 Good programme, but seen this before with the 'Diggers' (sorry Aurel) in Belgium. More or less the same, showed lewis magazines, next scene a VICKERS!!, interesting... Sure I saw Croonaert aswell, written all over his helmet.... poser Mr Reed, well done..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 Very interesting and moving. Pity about the Vickers footage when they were talking about Lewis guns following the discovery of Lewis Magazine drums. Tut! Tut! Mr Producer! Nice to see Paul on film. You will be signing autographs next! Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 (Started another thread and just noticed this one so am repeating comments here) An interesting programme for sure but strangely they did not seem to state with any conviction that they had actually found 'Owen's' dugout. And I do not see how it could be proven - as always there is lots of surmising in these type of documentaries. In particular the comments on the Lewis Gun being dicsarded; the odd Lewis Gun pannier is certainly not an uncommon find on the Western Front. The discovery of a few duckboards (which could have been any section of trench) is hardly conclusive that this was indeed Owen's particular dugout. And that Paul Reed gets everywhere doesn't he? But, seriously Paul, your input was most interesting - but what did you think? They must have asked you if you thought this was really the spot? And I have to agree about the generalisation comment - these programmes always seem to go off on a tangent. I wonder if someone will ever make a programme like this for a mainstream audience without mentioning that statistic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 I thought it was very good until about 2 minutes from the end, when they repeated the old lie "they died for nothing". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 Yes, I had by doubts about exactly what had been found. The resources needed to undertake a relatively modest dig are considerable and dug-outs add that 3D element to the whole search which vastly complicates things. And yes, Chris, trotting out the old futility line again was infuriating - almost as if the producer just had to add it out of deference to Owen or , perhaps more likely, his memories of studying Owen in the 6th form. Annoying that this one throw away remark will have reinforced so many viewer's received wisdom regarding the Battle of the somme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 But, seriously Paul, your input was most interesting - but what did you think? They must have asked you if you thought this was really the spot? Thanks for all your kind comments; I know Catrine Clay, the producer/director, will be pleased to read this. My role in the film was initially as a location advisor, to set up filming locations etc. I was then asked to contribute, but I declined to be involved in the archaeology. I did give the production team my own thoughts on the loction of a possible dugout, and the problems involved in finding such a place, and must say I put it in a different location. But the team had a number of experts involved, so it was not for me to say one way or another - only the audience can judge whether it is a convincing argument or not. The greatest pleasure for me was meeting and working with Peter Owen, Wilfred's nephew. A true gentleman, and very respectful and aware of the history of his uncle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 I found it watchable but the "they died for nothing" got up my nose some what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Dodd Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 Is it possible to get copies of air photographs like the ones used in the program from the IWM ? I was trying to find them in the document search online but got nowhere any ideas ? Many Thanks Conor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 Paul, I don't think the viewer was really given enough data to make a judgement on whether the dug-out area had been found. Its interesting that in such a well-mapped and aerially photographed area, there can be so much dispute about locations. I think this illustrates the need for further archaeology to identify locations definitively on the ground to establish more points of reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 Is it possible to get copies of air photographs like the ones used in the program from the IWM ? I was trying to find them in the document search online but got nowhere any ideas ? Conor; they are indexed with a card-index system where you need a Trench Map reference to get a print. There are often more than one negative for one location, and it can be hit and miss; some references are totally wrong. Years ago, when I was researching Beaumont Hamel, I ordered a large number; one, with a correct B-H reference turned out to be a photo of Givenchy-en-Gohelle near Vimy Ridge! I believe you can enquire by post or email, with a trench map reference to hand, but there are no indexes on-line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burlington Posted 13 March , 2004 Author Share Posted 13 March , 2004 I thought it was a great programme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Dodd Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 Many thanks for that trench maps to hand and I will drop them an E-Mail Conor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 The programme was too generalised for me. I expected it to concentrate on the archaeology more, which is what this series used to be about. Nice to see Paul though. Dave. I'm with you Dave. I cringed when given the news that a one week time frame had been set for the excavation because "all the archaeologists were amateurs and had to go back to work". I find this contrived format very irritating. There are digs all over the country that rely on amateur diggers and they carry over from season to season. Having said that, not having been to the Somme area, I was really taken aback by how beautiful the countryside is. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 I enjoyed the programme but was surprised to hear the statement that it was the first time a German trench was excavated. They surely meant in that area because in the Salient this was already done some years ago. Most possibly the film was edited that way but I was asking myself why the personal items of the German soldier were shown AFTER the remains were handled over to the representative of the 'Deutsche Volksbund'. The other way around would have been, in my opinion, less ambiguous. Paul was as usual I would say outstanding along with the other historians. Honestly I wasn't to impressed by the archaelogists. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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