John_Hartley Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 Good programme. My first post on this subject was after Andy (the guy from the Army Museum) had given a talk at the Museum of the Manchesters. As with all these programmes, it was portrayed that the decisions about where to dig where taken quickly whilst "on site" when, in fact, there had been much discussion well before. My recollection was that the German guy had been instrumental in identifying where to dig, in that German trench maps of th e time were much more detailed (and accurate) than British ones. So as not to spoil folk's enjoyment of the film, I did not mention at the time that they didnt find the dugout!! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Cox Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 Very interesting and moving for me as my Gt uncle was killed in action here on the 1st July 1916 Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 13 March , 2004 Share Posted 13 March , 2004 The moment the Lewis/Vickers shots came on my immediate thought was ... forum fumes! For archaeology buffs, 'The Forgotten Battlefield' is still IMHO the defining TV prog on 1st WW 'digs'. This seemed hurried both in dig time and editing time. for e.g. I could hear people in the background impatiently urging Paul to get the French farmer to point out where the gas shells were ploughed up. Fell short of my expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 An interesting programme but pointless. It seems at best to have been a literary conceit and at worst vulgar curiosity. BATTLEFIELD RECOVERY is fine if it serves some purpose like recovering an area in advance of redevelopment. This seems to have done to satisfy somebody's whim. Finding the remains of soldiers is always poignant. In this case unnecessary. It is more fitting that they lie where they fell wherever possible. I have excavated a good many skeletons and it is always a sad and undignified [rocesa when the remains are disarticulated and carried away in a box no bigger than a shoe-box. I applaud the siting of the Western Front cemeteries on or close to the battle lines but the majority of their dead were removed there and buried in one piece with some dignity. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 I have some sympathy with Ron's view that the reasons behind the dig were rather slight and contrived to make an undoubtedly watchable TV programme. Producers do seem to be trapped in a "Time Team" sort of mentality - "We've only got x days to do this dig". I suppose the reasons are purely financial. As has been suggested good archaeology demands time and care. Why not do the dig properly in the first place ? You could still edit things down to whatever time slot was available. I would have thought that a 4 week dig would have produced much more useful results and not have cost anywhere near 4 times more, given the fixed costs of opening and closing the dig. That quote at the end :- "All the fighting ; all the sacrifice; all the hell - had been for nothing". Perhaps the producer should read some of the writings of her illustrious predecessor at the BBC , John Terraine. But perhaps its the line that the average viewer expects/wants to hear not realising that it is inaccurate and belittles the efforts of our Army on the Somme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 Hi I am in Australia, I would love a copy of the video of the programme if anyone has it, also can someone give me the day and time of the programme so I can get my Mum in UK to tape it for me, its not the sort of thing she will watch so I will have to tell her about it. Thanks. Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burlington Posted 14 March , 2004 Author Share Posted 14 March , 2004 Sorry Christina, i think you are too late. The programme was broadcast 2010 hrs GMT Saturday 13 May. I did tape it but have no means of copying the tape and in any case it is mixed in with a load of other programmes. Perhaps some other Pal has it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drummy Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 I watched last night's programme and found it to be very interesting, it is programmes such as this that continue to generate interest in people about the First war and the sacrifices made. I disagree with the view of leaving soldiers where they have been found as it is more fitting, why?, buried under a farmers field getting more damaged by ploughs etc I would prefer them to be buried with comrades in war cemteries even though they would still be still unknown. What did strike me is that in such a small area of one field they found all sorts of items and 3 sets of remains, it just reminds us of how much evidence of war must be left throughout the area just a few feet underground. Well done to the farmer for letting the 'dig' take place and well done the team for discovering three victims of the First war and enabling them to have a dignified burial. Thanks Neil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 What did strike me is that in such a small area of one field they found all sorts of items and 3 sets of remains, it just reminds us of how much evidence of war must be left throughout the area just a few feet underground. I understand that there are in the region of 50,000 missing British soldiers lying in the fields of the Somme whose bodies have never been found. Its a staggering figure and presumably there is a similar number of missing German soldiers? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain mchenry Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 I thoroughly enjoyed the programme although I dont think it was as good as the one made about the Diggers at Boesinghe. It was good to see fellow pals on the TV. I was visiting The Ulster Tower at Theipval last Monday (8 March 04) and was speaking to Teddy, the Ulsterman who is looks after the tower. He said to me that he had been present during the digging at Serre, generally out of his own interest, he also stated that recently one of the German soldiers discovered by the Archaeologists had been positively identified. Does anyone have more info on this? Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRIAN TALMER Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 Hi I missed it had to take my Wife to the Theatre and forgot to tape it. I just hope it is repeated soon so I can watch it next time but it does sounds good by what everyone has said about it . From a very Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Noble Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 Christina. If you want a copy just drop me an e-mail off Forum and i'll get a copy to you as soon as i can, no problem. Regards, Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 Finding the remains of soldiers is always poignant. In this case unnecessary. It is more fitting that they lie where they fell wherever possible. I am sure that if my Great Uncle's remains were ever located the family would feel that it would be more fitting for them to be laid to rest in a War Cemetery, as would these remains, rather than left as still forever missing. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 I too would welcome my Great Uncle's remains being found near Ypres - under any circumstances whether frivolous or not. I sympathise with Ron's views but after much thought can't agree with them. By the very nature of things, the vast majority of "The Missing" will remain just that. Those few that are periodically returned back to us are precious messengers from the Great War whose mute commentary we should try to heed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Whippy Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 Any programme such as this that highlights the efforts and struggles of the great war, if well put together, is good to see on TV . Apart from the much mentioned Lewis Gun Faux Pas ( i bet they regret that now) the programme producers were some what doomed to "fail" before they started. The Battalion frontage for Owens unit would be upto several hundred metres long, and with the difficulties of Trench maps ,utter devastation and confusion plus 87 years gone by , no wonder they couldn't find a single dugout. And how would they know for sure anyway that they found the right one if they did, short of finding some "owen woz ere" graffitti, or the fabled engraved cigarette case ! I agree with the sentiments of other posts, that the "dig" as a whole was rushed, and lacked real direction. The Somme has many secrets still buried, it will not give them up that easily. I will be walking that Battlefield in 2 weeks and will stop a moment, not only for Owen, but for all the lads there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunflower Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 Hi Iain, The German soldier was identified as Wehrmann Jakob Hones, from 7 Kompanie of 121 Reserve Regiment. He was a 35-year-old farmer from near Stuttgart killed on June 13, 1915. He was able to be identified from his ID tag and was the first soldier found during the making of the programme. He carried a circular glass or enamel jar top from a department store in Stuttgart, a comb and nail set, a pencil, torch, and full set of equipment. Some of his uniform had survived together with badges for a Wurtenburg Regiment, as the 121st is from this area. The second German soldier had a Neolithic flint scrapper, money (quite a large sum), a book which awaits examination, door keys, a mirror, a pipe and tobacco, a razor, a harmonica and pen knife. The watch was carried by this soldier which had stopped at 6.10. Sunflower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 Hönes was actually listed as a laborer, probably a farm laborer from Münchingen< he had 6 children, one of whom is still alive and at least 4 grandchildren still in Münchingen. It is hoped that a photo still exists of him in uniform. He was killed in June 1915 during the French attacks near Serre. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 Extraordinary that the flint scraper was not specifically mentioned by the archeologists - this German soldier was at the very least an amateur member of their fraternity. Perhaps they are planning a follow up programme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 No follow up programme planned by the BBC, Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 Thanks Paul. I still think that scraper find is absolutely fascinating. Had to be worth a mention ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Seymour Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 So now we've had Lewis/Vickers, Sturmoviks over Dunkirk, and Keith Park muddled with Hugh Dowding. We all spot them, instantly. How difficult can it be for producers to get someone to check their programmes. If there are too many such mistakes, and they do seem to be building up at present, the programmes will lose credibility. It didn't seem to occur to any one on the programme to ask why the Germans retreated. How far back did they move after the Somme campaign? Wasn't there a German general who said that his army couldn't stand another battle like that? Well done, Paul. Quietly authoritative. Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunflower Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 For anyone wanting to view more photos and info on the dig at Serre, you can log on to the Wilfred Owen Association website. The Association's web site is at http://www.wilfredowen.info It has photographs of the "Sentry" site diggings taken during the recent excavations which members may care to view. BBC History has just "linked" to the web site yesterday and a visit to this "gallery" should not be missed. Best regards sunflower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 15 March , 2004 Share Posted 15 March , 2004 Will there be any chance that we can see it here in the States on the History Channel. They bring all kind of stuff - but no Great War themes. Anybody knows??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 15 March , 2004 Share Posted 15 March , 2004 Hello Egbert, I wish it would as well but I am not holding my breath. I have a copy being sent to me from a friend, I could make a copy for you if you would like. It will be a European DVD code. If you have a universal player it should be Ok. Just let me know. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 15 March , 2004 Share Posted 15 March , 2004 Ralph, Thanx for the generous offer - but I have to admit that i do own a US only version DVD player. 7000miles across I have my European "mothballed" and that doesn't help at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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