My Family At War

[ianw]

Roll on Rolf Harris ' contribution. I wonder if he will do a mural.

[irishmen1916]

Roll on Rolf Harris ' contribution. I wonder if he will do a mural.

O yes Ian, when I was just a lad I just to love him on the TV, painting a really big mural with 6" brushes

trying to work out what it was, and only finding out at the end.

Peter

[Stephen Barker]

O yes Ian, when I was just a lad I just to love him on the TV, painting a really big mural with 6" brushes

trying to work out what it was, and only finding out at the end.

Peter

You sometimes couldn't tell even at the end.

Stephen

[schmoodub]

very exited about Rolf's episode... a true gent!

one of my claims to fame is the fact that Rolf gave me my first digeridoo lesson with beer in a pub!!

[ianw]

My closing contribution to the Snow discussion - having just watched the programme again - is the exchange under the Thiepval Memorial with 70,000 mute onlookers :-

(Discussing the Great Uncle of the historian, killed at Gommecourt)

Snow "Do you blame my Great Grandfather for that?"

Historian "I think, on balance, I have to, yes".

Ouch!

[keithfazzani]

I think that culpability in the context of war is difficult if not impossible to ascribe.

[Staffsyeoman]

A faint sense of surprise that no-one's mentioned Matthew Kelly's last remark; it made me crack and was quite emotional for a few minutes:

"One of generation. But he's mine."

Sums it up.

[armourersergeant]

Lord knows Lt Gen Snow was pretty dire and I wouldn't want to be his defence counsel

I would!

You see in many ways Tom Snow encapsulates the problem that many people have with evaluating the war. He is not a simple idiot/donkey scenario. At times during the war he was poor, really poor, at others average to good. Prior to the wear he contributed greatly to the way the army conducted its self in 1914. He did have an aloofness, even 'aristo' arogance, yet at the same time could be concerned for the men under his care and yet know/believe they were 'cannon fodder' to serve a purpose. He was not a coward, spending time almost in the front line in 1914 and 1915, whilst being back further as a corps commander later. Yet even then tried as much as he could to visit forward areas. He felt cavalry were better served at home in England!

All this and more he did not in one sweep upwards, but as a meander up and down the hilly path of the Great War.

For me as I say a great example of the complications of the First World War.

Regards

Arm

[bmac]

Arm,

I think you have that right. What do you say to the idea that he was more comfortable defending/reacting in real time (i..e Le Cateau, 2nd Ypres) to planning and attacking (Gommecourt)? Not sure where Cambrai fits in.

Bill

[armourersergeant]

Without doubt he was better where he did not have to plan to far and complicated in advance. His whole life had been about reacting IMO not being pro-active. Also his performances were very much the 'ginger' side of things and he relied on the brains to come from his staff. 1914 was Edmonds (GSO1) 1915 was a backs to the wall bit, and he showed 'bravery' here not sure on the reactionary decisions. 1916-his BGGS Lyon?! - not sure he was the best. His corps seemed to improve in 1917 when Jock Burnett-Stuart came along. At Cambrai he did call the German attack correctly. So yes in summary his performance was much better in defence. It suited his style (read ability) of leadership.

He had the moral courage to ask to be relieved of command. As far back as mid 17 Jackson (Major, VII Corps camp Commandant) was writing of his impending return to home due to ill health, so it was perhaps only a matter of time. Regardless he did in the end see the writing on the wall and it is almost without doubt that he would have gone in Feb 18 when the others did. Or at the very least he would not have survived the March offensive, though I have often wondered what he would have done here, given his better performances were in defence.

It takes a less 'intelligent' officer to man a defence, IMO, than an attack.

Regards

Arm

[George Armstrong Custer]

A good assessment IMHO, Arm. Nice to have a more balanced summation of Snow. His track record would seem to indicate, as you say, that he might well have proved a steady pair of hands in March 1918. What needs to be factored in, though, is that by that time there were genuine health issues which would have impinged upon that performance. It is certainly right that he should be credited with having had the moral courage to admit that his health was affecting his ability to perform.

ciao,

GAC

[truthergw]

I liked your summing up Arm. I thought it very fair. You mention that Snow relied on his staff for brains. I think you may have touched on a problem which confronted all commanders in the Great War but the BEF commanders in particular. All their training, doctrine and experience was with forces and actions where one man could see the battlefield and run the battle with one or two aides. At the start, this was the war that was fought as they retreated and they acquitted themselves well. Part of French's problem as the retreat ended was to visualise his position on a battlefield much greater than he had ever dreamed of and how he should conform to actions many miles away. It was a long time before they evolved an effective mode of command which was adequate for the battles on the Western Front. Part of the solution was to rely on a large staff to gather information and evolve a plan to act on that information. It sounds as though Snow was trying to do just that. Some individuals never did learn to delegate. I am not sure defence requires less intelligence but that might make a worthwhile discussion on another thread.

[PhilB]

I am not sure defence requires less intelligence but that might make a worthwhile discussion on another thread.

Neither am I sure whether defence requires less luck in that maybe the fog of war is thicker for the aggressor than the defender.

[armourersergeant]

His track record would seem to indicate, as you say, that he might well have proved a steady pair of hands in March 1918. What needs to be factored in, though, is that by that time there were genuine health issues which would have impinged upon that performance.

Of course its more than likely that his health would not have held up or at the very worst he would have been on leave as with his late may early June 16 (which was ill advised to say the least) and been hammered for being abscent. Alas its a non starter to debate. I can not see how he could have survived the Feb 18 degommings.

Regards

Arm

[armourersergeant]

You mention that Snow relied on his staff for brains. I think you may have touched on a problem which confronted all commanders in the Great War but the BEF commanders in particular.

When/if I have loads of spare time (pipe dream) I would like to do an indepth comparison at three or four commanders and their CoS and see if there is a marked difference in performance depending on who the CoS is.

Possible studies could be:

Haig (Gough/Kiggel/Lawrence)

Snow (Edmonds/Lyons/Stuart)

Plumer(with and without Harrington)

You get the idea?

I have said before its the staff officers and advisers we should be looking at when studying the performance of commanders and not the General in isolation.

Regards

Arm

It takes a less 'intelligent' officer to man a defence, IMO, than an attack.

Bad choice or word. Of course I meant to say imaginative.

regards

Arm

[truthergw]

I know from my reading that Plumer and Harrington are often held up as a good example of staff work. As I said, I don't wish to hi-jack this thread or lose possible contributions to what might well prove to be an interesting thread in its own right but I disagree with imaginative as well. I think attack and defence are two sides of a battle and require equal amounts of ability. I think a good attacker will see the weaknesses in a defence and so will a good defender. Both will also recognise the weak points in an attack. After all, the Germans brought ability and imagination to the defence for 3 years before then bringing the same attributes to the attack.

[armourersergeant]

Tom,

I think you are right we are danger of taking this thread in a different direction and we still have Rolf to go!

Happy to continue this in a different thread if you like?

regards

Arm

[Steven Broomfield]

Go for it, Arm. It'll be an interesting thread.

[Brian Curragh]

In the Eamonn Holmes section, he visited the derelict Somme nursing home - can any Forum members advise where is this located? I have tried Google & found both the current day Somme Nursing Home & references to the UVF Hospital - but couldn't spot the building featured in the programme.

Thanks

Brian

[unitedsound]

Brian

I get the impression from a photograph on this link that the UVF Hospital was in the grounds of Queen's University.

http://www.belfastsomme.com/remembrance.htm

I recall Holmes referring to "Craigavon" when he talked about it.

David

In the Eamonn Holmes section, he visited the derelict Somme nursing home - can any Forum members advise where is this located? I have tried Google & found both the current day Somme Nursing Home & references to the UVF Hospital - but couldn't spot the building featured in the programme.

Thanks

Brian

[Brian Curragh]

David

Thanks for the very helpful prompt - I had missed the Craigavon reference - which now makes sense - it's Craigavon House - and is referred to here - http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Bid-to-re...ouse.4630963.jp

Where in East Belfast is this?

I recall Holmes referring to "Craigavon" when he talked about it.

David

Thanks again

Brian

[mhifle]

Hi,

This program is repeated during the early hours this week.

Tuesday BBC1 2:20 am

Wednesday BBC1 2:05 am

Thursday BBC1 2:30 am

Friday BBC1 1:55 am

Also Walter Tull, Forgotten Hero on Friday BBC4 1:30 am

Regards Mark

[unitedsound]

Brian

Type "Queens University Belfast" into Google and a map will come up.

The Uni is actually in South Belfast as indicated on my first link.

David

[DavidMillichope]

You see in many ways Tom Snow encapsulates the problem that many people have with evaluating the war. He is not a simple idiot/donkey scenario.

A have a lot of empathy with this, and it's so disappointing, in my view, that the credited producer /director didn’t feel able to take this line in the program. I was so convinced for the first few minutes that it was going there.

– another time maybe ?

It would be fascinating to hear from her. Unless she could step up to the plate it’s difficult to know how she arrived at her editorial decisions. There were many historians/authors available to her and ,on the evidence of this forum, I sensed there were some important untold messages.

[rob elliott]

Brian,

Craigavon is in the area of Sydenham East Belfast. Coming out of the City on the Hollywood Road you come to Circular Road.

Going up this road you would turn off into what was originally Craig's estate. Its got a housing estate on part of it now.

Going up the drive the old house/hospital is on the left on the brow of the hill and the newer building on the right.

The old house was the home of the Somme Association for a while and i went up there a few times.

An amazing place when you think of the history connected to it, with Lord Carson, Craig and Crawford and the meetings that took

place there before the war for the Ulster Volunteer Force.

Craig donated it for use as a hospital.

There is a very good photo calander done in 1915 showing the interior of the hospital wards and a list of who sponsored the beds.

Hope it does get renovated.

Rob