My Family At War

[Jonathan Saunders]

I preferred the Snow programme to the Kelly/Tufnell effort. Yes there were parts of it that were awful, or important details that were missing, and no I don’t believe that Dan Snow was previously unaware in some detail of his G/Gfhr’s military career, but it raised several important issues about British generalship up to the Somme:

• These men had been schooled in a different type of warfare.

• Invariably these men were not physically fit for active service on the Western Front.

• Poor preparation and understanding did exist.

• It was difficult to influence a battle once it had commenced – and rightly or wrongly, virtually impossible from 7 miles behind the Line.

You can take whatever slant you want too on these characteristics as to whether the Generals were to blame or whether they were manfully struggling to get to grip with a new type of warfare, but I thought the programme got the points across well.

Dan Snow may have appeared unnecessarily hard on his ancestor and could have looked much harder for the positives in him, but I think the critical element for him was that General Snow attempted to pass the blame to his men for their “lack of offensive spirit”. I found Dan Snow struggling with that reflection much more interesting and honest than Matthew Kelly’s tears, which I didn’t understand at all.

Having read some of the criticism that has been posted on the various threads posted on the recent Great War programmes, I think if I was a tv producer I would steer well clear of the subject from now on, which I think would be a great shame.

Regards,

Jonathan S

[bruce]

I have watched a wee bit of the Mathew Kelly/Tuffers programme and was moved by his tears at the Menin Gate - that's somewhere we all have been. No Snow controversy here, thank goodness. Looking forward to Rolf!

Well done to all the Forum members who have so far done their stuff. I must say that I would be absolutely terrified if asked to appear on a Great War TV programme knowing that my every syllable would be picked over by the brotherhood (and sisterhood) with any errors ruthlessly exposed. However, I might be lured on screen if Cherie Lunghi turned out to have a grandfather in the Tank Corps - explaining to her the differences between male and female wouldn't be too much of a burden.

Ian "Ravenhead" with Cherie Lunghi........now that is a programme I'd certainly want to watch!

[Kate Wills]

I preferred the Snow programme to the Kelly/Tufnell effort. ...Dan Snow may have appeared unnecessarily hard on his ancestor and could have looked much harder for the positives in him, but I think the critical element for him was that General Snow attempted to pass the blame to his men for their “lack of offensive spirit”. I found Dan Snow struggling with that reflection much more interesting and honest than Matthew Kelly’s tears, which I didn’t understand at all.

Having read some of the criticism that has been posted on the various threads posted on the recent Great War programmes, I think if I was a tv producer I would steer well clear of the subject from now on, which I think would be a great shame.

Regards,

Jonathan S

I came home on Monday night halfway through the programme, and have just watched the opening - and that would seem to be the order in which it was recorded. Dan Snow's opening remarks about not wanting to discover things about an ancestor that you may not wish hear seemed to presage the 'news' that awaited him. I put that in inverted commas because, as a good friend of Andy Lonergan / Armourersergeant, I know full well that Dan and dad were given chapter and verse on General Snow at a special event at the annual genealogy weekend in London last year. They have since mentioned on Radio 4 (earlier this year) that at that event they discovered their ancestor was actually a very kindly general, and they were very proud.

So why the sudden volte face, Dude? (I'll leave Andy/Arm to explain my wording there)

As to Jon's last point about producers giving the Great War a wide berth in consequence of remarks posted here, well, I think any collection of specialists will pounce on points which would not trouble a general audience. I'm sure other specialist forums are also teeming with bouquets and brickbats for TV productions. Ever been in a roomful of train buffs watching 'Brief Encounter'? They are much more concerned with liveries and wheel arrangements than doomed love-affairs.

[George Armstrong Custer]

Having read some of the criticism that has been posted on the various threads posted on the recent Great War programmes, I think if I was a tv producer I would steer well clear of the subject from now on, which I think would be a great shame.

If, as you say, the criticism on a specialist forum like this has the effect of making the television producers steer well clear of the Great War from now on then they would be very arrogant people who think they've nothing to learn. Prima Donnas who can't take criticism. I don't believe that's the case, however, and I'd hope the comments which the programmes have prompted on this forum would be taken on board by the producers involved and borne in mind when it comes to future productions. There's been a huge amount of research and work published on command and control in the Great War since the views which Bill expressed in the programme held sway, and many people have pointed that out in their comments on the programme. Hopefully those responsible for commissioning and producing such programmes will now be alerted to how influential that new research and interpretation has become. I'd hate to see something like the Snow programme being trotted out in ten years time for the 100th anniversary.

And a final thought - just because some of the criticism expressed is not in line with your own views does not lessen its validity, nor the right of those posting to express it. Hold a different view of the programme to those who've criticised it by all means - but don't seek to make out that such criticism endangers the making of programme's on the Great War. Its purpose is to improve them.

ciao,

GAC

[andalucia]

Am I glad i watched this last night.

Matthew Kelly's story about his grandad amazed me. You see my great grandfather John Owens fought alongside Matthews grandad. John was in the same battalion as Matthews grandad and when they talked about "MOUSETRAP FARM" I sat there stunned.

My Great grandfather died during the fighting at Mousetrap farm, He died on 13th May 1915, they even mentioned that date as the day Matthews grandad was injured. It was brilliant to see the area.

John Owens - His unit was moved to the front line trenches north of Wieltje on May 9th, where they held their position under heavy shellfire and infantry attack. They went over the top and took part in the fighting at Mousetrap farm between 13th -14th May. John was killed in action on the 13th May. His unit was relieved on the 15th, total casualties since 9th May=387 killed, wounded and missing.

I am no expert, but i believe ( after reading about it ) that this regiment was present at the Christmas truce of 1914, I think Matthew would have liked to have known that.

My Great grandad John Owens has no grave, he is remembered on the menin gate memorial.

A great show really interesting. did you see Tuffers in the WW1 plane? he loved it.

Cheers

Ant

[ianw]

Yes, quite agree, Kate. What exercises us saddo's will not bother Joe Public.

I share your interest in the Snow's motivations and have already suggested that their indifferent PR profile would not be harmed by their having to consume a bit of humple pie forced on them by the inadequacies (real or imagined) of Lt Gen Snow.

Tend to agree with the point above that TV producers who have been perspicacious enough to take on board some of the Forum's most talented will not be put off making Great War TV programming by sensible criticism/suggestions on the same Forum.

[Kate Wills]

Ian,

I do wish arm would recount the story of Dan Snow's behaviour at the Gen Snow event. I could just about tolerate him until then, though I was already convinced that his TV career had more to do with looks and connections than ability. Since then, well...

[PBI]

Why were Balloon Observers given Parachutes and not RFC Pilots ?...

[ianw]

Yes, Kate, I have never been overly impressed by the Snows - but, as demonstrated here, they have always been well-connected and that counts for a lot.

I am sure that Arm can be persuaded to be indiscreet!

[ianw]

Why were Balloon Observers given Parachutes and not RFC Pilots ?...

I suspect because there was room in the balloon basket to park the parachute next to the cocktail cabinet and the aspidistra. Also it gave the observers a sporting chance as they could not fly their balloon out of the way of the incendiary bullets.

[mhifle]

Am I glad i watched this last night.

Matthew Kelly's story about his grandad amazed me. You see my great grandfather John Owens fought alongside Matthews grandad. John was in the same battalion as Matthews grandad and when they talked about "MOUSETRAP FARM" I sat there stunned.

My Great grandfather died during the fighting at Mousetrap farm, He died on 13th May 1915, they even mentioned that date as the day Matthews grandad was injured. It was brilliant to see the area.

John Owens - His unit was moved to the front line trenches north of Wieltje on May 9th, where they held their position under heavy shellfire and infantry attack. They went over the top and took part in the fighting at Mousetrap farm between 13th -14th May. John was killed in action on the 13th May. His unit was relieved on the 15th, total casualties since 9th May=387 killed, wounded and missing.

I am no expert, but i believe ( after reading about it ) that this regiment was present at the Christmas truce of 1914, I think Matthew would have liked to have known that.

My Great grandad John Owens has no grave, he is remembered on the menin gate memorial.

A great show really interesting. did you see Tuffers in the WW1 plane? he loved it.

Cheers

Ant

I was also interested to see Mousetrap Farm as I had a relative Sapper George Raymond Hifle involved in the fighting there 22 to 25 April 1915 at the start of the 2nd Battle of Ypres serving with the 3rd Field Company, Canadian Engineers.

A mixture of Canadian Engineers, French Zouaves and 3 Company’s of the Canadian 14th Battalion held a line past Mouse Trap Farm to Hampshire Farm where they were touch with the enemy 400 yards to the north.

Mark

[Steven Broomfield]

Ian,

I do wish arm would recount the story of Dan Snow's behaviour at the Gen Snow event. I could just about tolerate him until then, though I was already convinced that his TV career had more to do with looks and connections than ability. Since then, well...

I hate to do this, Kate, but we'll have to disagree.

I couldn't tolerate him much sooner than you couldn't tolerate him.

Unless, of course, I've misread your post and it's Arm's TV career and ability that you're commenting on......

[Guest Taynuilt]

Well come to the posting forum. Many of your comments have validity, it was very much an over simplification and I guess had to be in just twenty minutes. Perhaps some 'bad' editing did change or misrepresent some of what happened.

I do know that some of the above were sort by the BBC but were in many instances not available to help.

You will I hope forgive me pointing out- Snow was not removed but requested to go home. It is something I am very quick to point out. Though I am willing to admit he would almost certainly have gone when others like Pulteney and Woolcombe did. His performance at Cambrai was better than often portrayed but 'history' has seen the corps commanders blamed in this area when perhaps it should have been parked at Byng's door. But that is another thread altogether!

Regards

Arm

Thank you for the correction! I had believed that Snow was part of the clear out of 3rd Army corps commanders after Cambrai. This was certainly what is said in Jeffrey Williams's biography of Byng and Robin Neillands's book on the Great War Generals but i am happy to accept what you say is true.

[truthergw]

Why were Balloon Observers given Parachutes and not RFC Pilots ?...

To see if they worked, before giving them to aircrew.

[PBI]

To see if they worked, before giving them to aircrew.

Oh good,that has certainly answered my Question.A Good Job None of the Air Crew ever got Basil Hallams "Chute" then...

[Mick D]

I've missed this series !

anyone know of when or if it is to be repeated ?

Mick

[AGWR]

Mick,

You can watch both episodes on BBC iPlayer:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/

Regards.

AGWR

[Jim Clay]

Kelly & Tuffnell are on BBC4 this evening - check the BBC website for time. Another episode on BBC1 at 10:35 tonight.

[Alan Tucker]

Kelly and Tuffers far superior to Snow the pathetic and the fictitious war work of the Cassidy ancestors. Matthew Kelly spoke for us all when he said 'They are our people'. A good contribution from our Paul as well. Will programme 3 be as good as programme 2 or revert to the low standard of programme 1?

[armourersergeant]

I do wish arm would recount the story of Dan Snow's behaviour at the Gen Snow event.

Yes, Kate, I have never been overly impressed by the Snows - but, as demonstrated here, they have always been well-connected and that counts for a lot.

I am sure that Arm can be persuaded to be indiscreet!

For the record, when I met Dan Snow he was nothing but polite- however he called me "Dude", I have an aversion to being called this- it made me prickle at the time, it makes me laugh now. I am 42, he is far younger, he may laugh at some of the things I say.

Did Dan get where he is today due to connections? On balance yes. He stays where he is due to the fact that he attracts audiences and gets a message across, not always correctly but to many he is 'homely'. If that is what it takes to get people interested then so be it. I was attracted to this topic from a purely donkey angle, I learnt to consider other areas why can we not credit other people with the intelligence to do so for themselves (of course 70% of pop will follow like sheep).

As a thought, Haig got where he was by who he knew and his connections. He did a reasonable job after a few unsteady years, let the man grow for gods sake, perhaps he will follow a learning curve and adapt as he goes on.

I had fifteen minutes on a stage and did a far worse job than than the recent BBC job. We should also consider that he learnt and probably said far more than we saw, editing is a wonderful thing. I am not going to lie and say I do not have some issues with the programme. But on balance it was nearer the mark than not in regards to Snow, perhaps it gave a general picture of all Commanders of the Great War, but Snow was badly at fault at Gommecourt, he was becoming outmoded, ageing and in need of a rest. These points came across. They could have mentioned he had been under intense fire at 2nd Ypres in April 1915, this would have countered the 'Chateau Dwelling General' impression that occurred. but then I can almost gaurantee someone would counter with "Oh but they ignored that he made some bad decisions here and never touched on the spat he had with Currie!"

Where to stop? It was a twenty minute programme.

Perhaps I am to close to the subject of Snow to be analytical.

Regards

Arm

[Stephen Barker]

All of which sets things up nicely for Eamonn and Kate this evening.

Looking forward to it.

Stephen

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi all,

Having watched the previous two programmes, I have to say that there was a fair bit that I enjoyed about them. Generally, I am pretty negative about these programmes, which was a good scene-setter, as I was expecting to be underwhelmed - as usual.

For a change, I was a bit more light-hearted about these two programmes and looked at them, and appreciated them as human interest stories, well in the case of Cassidy and Kelly anyway, and just with general interest reference Tufnell.

I actually quite enjoyed the bits concerning Cassidy and Kelly (and Tufnell as he is generally quite amiable) as they went through a journey that a lot on the forum can connect with. Kelly genuinely seemed brand new to the whole experience and it clearly had some affect on him, and that's fine with me, and I suppose that's why it made it interesting. To be honest, I would have found the programme interesting if it was an hour of Paul Reed talking Matthew Kelly through the battles and experiences of his relative, and relating maps and images to the areas visited. Or maybe, contradicting what I said in my first paragraph, I am easy to please .

The Dan Snow bit was a bit too disingenuous for me. Considering his portfolio/CV, he has never looked up his relative...c'mon, pull the other one, it’s got bells on it!

Looking forward to the Kate Silverton one tonight too, but that's for another reason, don't tell the wife

Aye

Tom McC

[towisuk]

Matthew Kelly was not new to "The Great War", I believe about a year ago he was in a stage play about this very subject, and did several interviews on tv at the time about the affect it had on him. Last night he came over as a sincere, sensitive, and interested subject on his relatives involvment in the war.

I found his story the most moving up till now in this series, and the scene at the end where he lays his wreath on his relatives grave was very emotive.

Keep up the good work, all the forum pals taking part in what I think is an admirable attempt to bring the human tragedy of WW1 to the British public.

Regards

Tom

[Anthony Pigott]

..., but it raised several important issues about British generalship up to the Somme:

...

• Invariably these men were not physically fit for active service on the Western Front.

...

That's a rather sweeping statement. What's the evidence for it?

Regards

Anthony

[David Seymour]

Towards the end of the A E Nugent programme a newspaper account was seen which asserted that Serjeant Nugent enlisted two days after the war began. Earlier in the programme the narrator said that he was fighting in his first major battle two weeks and four days after war was declared. So, that's two weeks and two days of training. I had always thought that training lasted much longer. Grateful for guidance on this one.

With best wishes,

David