Suicide

[pw643]

I attended a Welfare course this week where causes and reasons for suicide were discussed.

The figures over the last 120 years show a fall during both wars. The figures only show people who completed suicide in England and Wales. If the theatre suicides would be added to the home figure then I am guessing the figures would be fairly constant.

Has anybody got any true figures or even estimates of GW suicides.

Regards

Paul

[Alans]

I met a chap from 3 para once ( Falklands War) he said that there had been just as many suicides as battlefield deaths in that war, when asked how he had handled things he said that he would have killed himself if they had'nt let him go....

[phil andrade]

I attended a Welfare course this week where causes and reasons for suicide were discussed.

The figures over the last 120 years show a fall during both wars. The figures only show people who completed suicide in England and Wales. If the theatre suicides would be added to the home figure then I am guessing the figures would be fairly constant.

Has anybody got any true figures or even estimates of GW suicides.

Regards

Paul

German records reveal that 5106 of their soldiers committed suicide in the war. US official records show 967 suicides in the army.

If the German figure is used for extrapolation, we might guess that 25000 military personel committed suicide in the war, on the basis that about one in five of all the military deaths from all causes 1914-1918 were German.

Phil.

[John Gilinsky]

I think it dangerous to simplistically extrapolate from a losing army and one which founght however hard for only the last 6 months of the war. Such statistics usually include ALL suicides thus rejected or about to be rejected as medically unfit recruits killing themselves in part due to perceived societal rejection. The United States "over mobilized" since the vast majority of their soldiers never saw any action (a couple hundred thousand at most of the several million mobilized). Thus suicide stats for combatant arms who had seen combat would be much more worthwhile. Clearly suicide figures fall for males at least if not overall since we know historically and currently that males take much more violent and thus overt means of doing themselves in while females have traditionally chosen poison, "accidents" and the like. Take such potential suicidal males and put them into uniform with their platoon, section or squad support and see how such suicidal thoughts are dissipated, repressed or at least provisionally controlled through sublimation in other means of violent expression. The CEF was a large corps but never a full army. I do not have suicide rates (there were suicides amongst all ranks in the CEF both at home, in transit and in front lines)for the CEF but I feel that overall that such rates were actually and relatively low if not very low.

John

Toronto

[pw643]

Between 1911 and 1921 there was a steady decline resulting in approx 500 less in total.

so even if there was 50 per year of overseas suicides then that would be higher than a natural downward trend which happens throughout certain periods. My personal thoughts are that there were more than 50 per year.

Many extra triggers have to be considered such as POW's/Sickness/Ending pain through serious injuury/shell shock,mental illness/being away/excessive life changes.

Does anyone else consider that 50 per year was exceded? (Sorry, British only)

Regards

Paul

[phil andrade]

Yes, John, a very fair and informed response.

It would be unwise to assume that the German suicide rate was normal....I only offered the info. because it was the only data I had to hand.

The US rate, by comparison, is very high. My guess is - and it's merely a guess - that the more exposed to combat the generality of the several armies were, the lower the suicide rate. The higher the proportion that was confined to duties at home, the higher the rate.

There are reports that French soldiers committed suicide collectively by choosing to die from Carbon Monoxide poisoning in their dug outs.

Lloyd George, in his War Memoirs, alludes to his astonishemnet that so many millions of men, having endured the most searing ordeal, were able to "pick up" normal and fulfilling life in the post war years. How different from Vietnam and the Falklands! Perhaps this is a function of "national" wars, with the preponderance of young males in service, as compared with wars in which relativley few are sent to fight.

I'll be away for a week, so forgive me for not continuing this discussion until my return.

There is, I feel, much to think about in this thread.

Phil.

[John Gilinsky]

Between 1911 and 1921 there was a steady decline resulting in approx 500 less in total.

so even if there was 50 per year of overseas suicides then that would be higher than a natural downward trend which happens throughout certain periods. My personal thoughts are that there were more than 50 per year.

Many extra triggers have to be considered such as POW's/Sickness/Ending pain through serious injuury/shell shock,mental illness/being away/excessive life changes.

Does anyone else consider that 50 per year was exceded? (Sorry, British only)

Regards

Paul

Paul: I presume that you are taking these figures from a Parliamentary Sessional Paper perhaps the 1922 report on shellshock or the report on the health of the British Army between 1913 to 1921(?). Such figures must be used with great caution at the very minimum. Doctors would be loathe to report something that they knew or should have known was illegal at the time: suicide to spare the family's feelings and for insurance purposes. Thus these reasons still hold by the way other misleading and downright misrepresentative diagnoses were applied: exhaustion, debility, heart problems, .... Think of the statistical compilation(s) as well: Relatively junior officers with other rank clerks or civilians in distant London, England from the Western Front (not to mention all the other theaters of operation) fulfiling a clerical rather than an investigative or questioning role.

John

Toronto

(distant CANADA)

[Muerrisch]

Major point being missed here: in a war of many dead from many causes, and at a time when suicide had a huge social and religious stigma, suicides in close proximity to the enemy would be under-reported. No unit commander would want the implied stigma on his leadership, all the way down to the corporal. My belief is that suicides were very under-reported. I have no evidence whatsoever.

[John Gilinsky]

I agree with you Grumpy absolutely. In fact you add support to my points about how unreliable distant and unknowledgeable clerical staff were in documenting or reporting such medical or health matters.

Same goes btw for homicides committed in battle against one's own side.

John

[pw643]

Thanks for your replies

I am not going to even attempt to change any statistics that are used by universities as my academic skills probably wouldn't have any influence over them. I added my view during question time, as I believe the figures could be misleading if the Armed Forces serving overseas at any given time were not included.

John

I am not sure the exact source for the figuires but they relate to the whole population of England and Wales Which shows reported the actual 'offence' taking place in the Geographical boundaries rather than just the British Army.

Grumpy

I don't think that the point has been missed as the topic started asks originally for true figures or even estimates. Suicide wasn't just illegal during wars. I understand the commanders responsibilty for keeping morale high ground over the enemy. In your opinions would you consider 50 complete suicides per year as a low/medium or high estimate for the Army/Navy ?

Regards

Paul

[Will O'Brien]

Of the approximate 1,000 names I have undertaken research on (these are from War Memorials in the North Bucks, Bedfordshire, South Northants area), 2 of the deaths were officially attributed to suicide. Extrapolate this out then we are talking about 2,000 suicides per 1,000,000 war deaths. Haven't the faintest idea if this is representative or not.

Of these two, the first committed suicide shortly after war was declared. He was a regular soldier in his early 20's. There is no indication whether this action was linked to an imminent departure overseas or completely unconnected to the war. The second was in the summer of 1918. The soldier in question had been in action since late 1914. He was an articulate & thoughtful man (I have read some letters which he sent to the local newspaper editor describing his early experiences in 1914/15). He was a volunteer & in his late 30's. Again no indication why he did it. He was on leave at the time.

[6th Shropshires]

I geuss we'll never know the correct number of suicides because of the none reporting by some units but saying that the K.S.L.I. units I have researched do report self-inflicked wounds/deaths. Also how would an officer know if the chap who sticks his head over the parpet and gets a bullet in his head was just carless or committing suicide ?

I know of eight K.S.L.I. suicides, six were in UK and two overseas. I wonder if it was easyer to commit suicide in UK then overseas ? then again it could be down to under reporting by units overseas ?

[foureyes]

In my investigation of some 370-odd names on a particular WW1 war memorial I came across one suicide. Captain C was an infantry officer who had served for some years as a regular, and retired in 1912 at about age 50. On war being declared he rushed back to his regiment and managed to talk his way to a battalion en route to France. He was wounded quite badly in November 1914 and sent back to England for treatment. On release from hospital he once again talked his way back to a battalion in France. Within a fortnight he was wounded again, losing one leg and having his opposite thigh smashed. He was sent back to England and after some months in hospital was discharged from the Army as being "unfit for further service." About six weeks later he shot himself in a bedroom at an hotel in Bournemouth, using his "Service revolver."

At the inquest it was established that he was in constant and severe pain and, of course, there were no treatments at the time to help him. The jury had no option but to return a verdice of "suicide while the balance of his mind was disturbed." He was buried in an unmarked grave.

There can be no doubt that the committee responsible for the war memorial were fully aware that C had taken his own life and had actually left the Service. Also, of course, suicide was very much frowned upon in those days. Despite that, it is equally clear that they took the charitable view that his was truly a war death and put his name on the memorial. Good for them!

David

[pw643]

Please keep your thoughts coming

I know of eight K.S.L.I. suicides, six were in UK and two overseas. I wonder if it was easyer to commit suicide in UK then overseas ? then again it could be down to under reporting by units overseas ?

The suicide decision is often a long pondered decision throughout which depressive thoughts can tilt the balance. A point made earlier when a soldier is with his unit working as a team his morale however bleak the conditions are at their best. A soldier wanting to fight for King and Country is at his best at war. (25 years service and my best times were during conflict). The decision can never be easy but often when the decision has been made a complete character change can occur turning a man's character from depressive to complete contentment having made that decision. There are triggers that can lead to a spontanious decision particularly during any major life changes but these are less frequent.

I personally think that overall there would be a higher percentage of suicides of those returning home or on their way.

Almost trying to start a poll here but please give your feedback if you think that there were more or less than 50 per year overseas France/Belgium/Galipoli/POW's etc

Paul

[truthergw]

It would be very easy for a man to get himself killed. How one would distinguish this from actually killing oneself, I don't know. This might also extend to subconsciously exposing oneself to danger. The common verdict " while the balance of the mind was disturbed" reflects the realisation that no one else can even guess at what is going on in a person's mind in the lead up to the event. I would be very dubious as to the accuracy of any figure which was put on suicides. We can only hope to count the definites with no hope of ever knowing the true figure.

[bob lembke]

I geuss we'll never know the correct number of suicides because of the none reporting by some units but saying that the K.S.L.I. units I have researched do report self-inflicked wounds/deaths. Also how would an officer know if the chap who sticks his head over the parpet and gets a bullet in his head was just carless or committing suicide ?

I know of eight K.S.L.I. suicides, six were in UK and two overseas. I wonder if it was easyer to commit suicide in UK then overseas ? then again it could be down to under reporting by units overseas ?

It was, of course, much, much easier to commit suicide in the war theatre, and have it taken for KIA. This of course would be much easier on everyone, especially the family. There must have been many suicides that were never realized as such, and many more attributed to other causes. Just poke your head over the parapet for 20 seconds every few days. Clean head shot almost guaranteed, war hero, name chiseled in memorials, all the rest. Incomparably better than shooting yourself in a hotel room back in the UK, black cloud over the family, embarrassment rather than pride, etc.

The US is having a lot of suicides in Iraq and Afghanistan, and while there is occasional hard combat, and the threat of bombings, IED, etc., in many ways the conditions are incomparably better than in WW I. Possible daily contact with the family back home, usually great food, usually air conditioning, etc., etc. Someone asked if there would have been 50 suicides for the entire UK military in a year. Really! There muct have been some thousands, but not perceived, and if so, not reported as such, for 100 reasons.

Bob Lembke

[pw643]

Someone asked if there would have been 50 suicides for the entire UK military in a year. Really! There muct have been some thousands, but not perceived, and if so, not reported as such, for 100 reasons.

Bob Lembke

Bob

These are the opinions I am seeking

Cheers

Paul

[John Gilinsky]

Suicides both attempted and successful should be viewed as part of the larger picture of mental health of an army. This is not presentism or after the fact psychobabble verbiage but reality. Virtually all armies were conscripted civilians in uniforms. Potentially or actually dying an unpleasant death or being seriously wounded in some foreign field alone or forgotten is highly stress inducing and hence a significant contributory factor in attempted and successful suicides. What might be very useful is a careful study of as many individual cases as possible outlining in as much detail as possible the contibutory factors to such war time military suicides.

John

[truthergw]

How might we set about that, John? We have no hope of interviewing any of them nor their contemporaries nor families. We have no reliable way of gauging which deaths were suicides. Even death by sniper or artillery might have been the result of a deliberate or unconscious exposure to a known risk due to a death wish. The man who went out night after night on patrol and volunteered for every hazardous duty. Was he very brave, very committed to doing his utmost or was he deliberately tryiing to get himself killed? We know of a few cases of definite suicide. We have no way of making any kind of meaningful estimate of the total number of suicides. What do we call the man who tried to get a blighty and got fatally wounded instead. Is that a suicide? How many were there? I'm sorry but it seems to me that this is not a question that could ever hope to be answered.

[stoj22]

This is an interesting clipping...........unfortunately his predictions were inaccurate.

[NeilEvans]

A topic close to my heart.

My Gt Uncle

Sergeant John Leonard Nuttall 12th Welsh, commited suicide near his home in North Wales in 1916, 3 months after being wounded. He survived going over the top on the first day of Loos.

Died from self inflicted wounds crops up now and again, with out specific information on a death it's hard differentiate between the two.

In my database (incomplete) for men buried in Shrops, i've 5 Suicides, 4 WW1, 1 WW2.

One being a Belgium who commited suicide whilst in prison.

Neil

[bob lembke]

It is a real shame that the statistics are probably so incomplete and fudged that useful analysis is probably not possible. One interesting question would be the effect of the forms and rigidity of discipline. I will state, despite probable disagreement from many, that the German Army in WW I had, in several senses, less rigid discipline, less brutality toward the OR, than in the British Army. (Quick, dive in the dugout! They are setting up the Vickers!)

How would such a state of affairs, were it true, affect comparative suicide rates? I honestly don't know.

Would cultural differences, perhaps in some cases ones that glorify dying for one's country, reduce suicide, perhaps by substituting dying in combat due to very reckless behavior for suicide?

Bob Lembke

[NeilEvans]

Can somebody tell me the difference regarding 'suicide whilst temporarily insane' and 'Suicide'.

The death cert. for my gt uncle states 'suicide whilst temporarily insane'

Neil

[truthergw]

Attempted suicide was a crime. A failed suicide could be charged and they routinely were. Insanity or balance of the mind disturbed, would imply that no crime was committed. I wonder if this allowed assurance policies to be paid? I don't know but have wondered myself.

[6th Shropshires]

There is one way in getting all the known suicides of men serving overseas and that is going through very medal because men committing suicide had their right to medals forfitted and this is recorded in their roll entry. Anyone got the next 100 years spare , hopefully one day every Regiment/Corps will have a database where such facts can be looked in a short time, mine will be finished some time in the next 20 or 30 years

Annette