Suicide

[John Gilinsky]

The interest in this sad subject lies I believe in the alienation amongst the alienated and what we interpert this to mean (different according to who you are and your experiences, intellect, etc...) combined naturally indeed inevitably with our own modern sensibilities and political viewpoints. Of course the vast majority of soldiers were scared, anxious and depressed but the majority did not do away with themselves (well recklessly at least). Self-destruction or a primordial death wish may be the delight of Freudian analysts but it was recognized long long before the modern advent of psychoanalysis. Points previously made about how one can possibly realistically separate out many if not most suicides from battlefield or front line deaths are excellent in their own right. Yet this subject of doing away with oneself in the midst of mass slaughter seems to arouse this innate curiousity in such primal psychologically driven reactions.

John

[pw643]

John

My innate curiosity lies in post 1 as I didn't believe that there was a sharp fall in suicides and that overseas suicides are not amongst the figures.

Annette

I will be passing on my database to my Grandchildren (RFA)

Regards

Paul

[Will O'Brien]

It would be very easy for a man to get himself killed. How one would distinguish this from actually killing oneself, I don't know. This might also extend to subconsciously exposing oneself to danger. The common verdict " while the balance of the mind was disturbed" reflects the realisation that no one else can even guess at what is going on in a person's mind in the lead up to the event. I would be very dubious as to the accuracy of any figure which was put on suicides. We can only hope to count the definites with no hope of ever knowing the true figure.

I think Tom's comments are spot on. I can think of very few recorded instances where 'combat suicide' has been determined. In fact I can only think of one & even then it was based on rumour & suggestion. The case in question was the death of Vera Brittain's brother Edward.

[pw643]

1911 figures show total in the uk at 2,500 there was a steady decline till 1921 when the figures were at 2,000.

Regards

Paul

[phil andrade]

Remember Sebastian Faulk's novel Charlotte Grey ? There was, I recollect, a depiction of an old French veteran of Verdun, who, as an artist in WW2, describes to the heroine how he and two of his mates opted to eat the putrid meat from a decomposing horse in an attempt to avoid being sent back to the frontline. They knew that this might have fatal consequences, and at least one of his pals did die, but they prefered taking the risk to returning to Verdun.

I reckon that the author might have authenticated this episode when he researched for his novel.

The German figures I posted indicate a rate of about 100 suicides per month for the duration of the war : I realise, of course, that many of these might have occurred after the Armistice, but it's a striking number, by any standard.

Different war, I know, but perhaps a pertinent contribution : during the American Civil War, there were 391 recorded suicides in the Union army, equating to nearly one for every thousand deaths. This is roughly half the rate implied by the German example.

Phil.

[fotonix]

It was, also as a result of stigma, common practice for causes other than simple 'suicide' to be entered on death certificates. This practice continued until relatively recently, and in some small number of cases, still does (my grandmother hung herself in the late 1980's, but her cause of death was shown as being heart failure).

I would think establishing a reliable line of data would be fraught with difficulty. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that a reliable set of data isn't possible.

J.

[baorbrat]

There is one way in getting all the known suicides of men serving overseas and that is going through very medal because men committing suicide had their right to medals forfitted and this is recorded in their roll entry. Anyone got the next 100 years spare , hopefully one day every Regiment/Corps will have a database where such facts can be looked in a short time, mine will be finished some time in the next 20 or 30 years

Annette

Hopefully? I think not. Somethings should be left, let be. Soldiers could have medals forftted for many reasons, not just suicide.Why after all this time should anyone want to go around deciding that some soldiers were not "War Heros" killed in action, but sucides is beyound me. We will have the PC mob trying to get names deleted from War Memorials.

[norah13]

Hopefully? I think not. Somethings should be left, let be. Soldiers could have medals forftted for many reasons, not just suicide.Why after all this time should anyone want to go around deciding that some soldiers were not "War Heros" killed in action, but sucides is beyound me. We will have the PC mob trying to get names deleted from War Memorials.

Hope you dont mind my jumping in on this thread but I`d like to mention the women left at home with families. I was shocked in our local archive recently to see the number of women recorded who, during ww1, committed suicide. Their methods were simplistic but effective, head in the oven, poisoning and even drinking embrocation and hanging. As I have read many times on the forum, there were those who recieved no mention and no medals, some of them were also heroes. I feel that there would have been a great deal of covering up re deaths in the trenches, partly to keep up the spirits of others. Thanks guys enjoyed reading your thoughts.

[phil andrade]

Viewed from a different standpoint, we might do well to reflect on the fact that large numbers of German commanders committed suicide in, or as a result of, World War Two; whereas, as John Keegan reminds us in his book Armageddon, there were virtually no suicides ( perhaps none at all) among the German commanders in The Great War.

There is one famous suicide incident regarding the Russians in 1914, when the despairing commander shot himself at Tannenberg.

The American commander of the "Lost Battalion" of the Meuse-Argonne battle committed suicide in the years after the war. Closer to home, we have the author of Some Desperate Glory, Edmund Campion Vaughn, who killed himself, presumably as a result of his wartime experiences.

Phil.

[John Gilinsky]

PJA: Your last post highlights the difficulties of those soldiers including officers and yes even commanders who repeatedly recklessly exposed themselvs to fire: did they have death-wish, were they suicidal and did some if not many of them succeed? Imagine sending thousands (tens of thousands +) soldiers who are essentially unarmed (pitchforks, staves, knives maybe) against German rifle and machine-guns during 1914 - 1915 by Russian commanders on the Eastern front.

John

Toronto

[pw643]

John

Recklessly exposing oneself on the battlefield is certainly not caused by suicidal thought but the leadership and ability to spur on the troops. Even Generals managed to 'Recklessly expose themselves' to bring some command and control to the front line after leaderless battalions became confused.

Those that may have exposed themselves to commit the act of suicide would have been few as men throughout the ages commonly plan their act with precision rather than on the off chance of being sniped. Soldiers who may have aimlessly gone over the top on their own may have walked all the way to the German line and simply being taken prisoner. Men have a higher success rate in the act of suicide than women not only due to the methods chosen such as Hanging and Gunshot wounds wheras johnsdaughter mentions poisoning, which is the preferred choice of women and invariably fails as unconciousness prevents, in many cases continued poisoning and in more modern times antidotes to such things as painkiller overdoses.

Paul

[John Gilinsky]

Paul: In the example I gave in my last post I specifically referred to the first 1 and half + of the Imperial Russian Army's efforts on the Eastern Front facing both Germany and Austro-Hungarian troops. If we know of the famous incident where a British field officer clearly knew during and immediately after July 1, 1916 that his own regiment/battalion would be severely mauled if not worse and his worse fears did come true and that wounded and recuperating in London he decided to kill himself: imagine this scene played out over and over again on the Eastern Front! Surely such sheer massacres and sheer folly must have played a critical factor in some Russian officers killing themselves.

John

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Peter

Why after all this time should anyone want to go around deciding that some soldiers were not "War Heros" killed in action, but sucides is beyound me. We will have the PC mob trying to get names deleted from War Memorials.

No one is deciding anything of the sort as far as I can see. I for one do not judge a man if he commits sucides (my great gran gassed her self) but a study of any fact what ever it is can be of use to someone, for example the rate of sucides amoung soldiers could be used to try and judge moral, I say try because I doubt the correct numbers could be obtained. I know some people just hate facts and figures and thats fine by me everyone as a right to his or hers own veiw (after 20 years of research I have become obsessed with them.

Annette

[phil andrade]

The wonder is, I suppose, how FEW committed suicide.

Phil.

[pw643]

Apologies for returning to the question but it looks like suicide was sometimes covered up and sometimes just unnoticed. Would anyone like to take an educated/ uneducated guess that there were more or less than 50 per year overseas by british only?

Paul

[bob lembke]

Apologies for returning to the question but it looks like suicide was sometimes covered up and sometimes just unnoticed. Would anyone like to take an educated/ uneducated guess that there were more or less than 50 per year overseas by british only?

Paul

Certainly many more than 50.

Bob

[bob crowther]

Yes, John, a very fair and informed response.

It would be unwise to assume that the German suicide rate was normal....I only offered the info. because it was the only data I had to hand.

The US rate, by comparison, is very high. My guess is - and it's merely a guess - that the more exposed to combat the generality of the several armies were, the lower the suicide rate. The higher the proportion that was confined to duties at home, the higher the rate.

There are reports that French soldiers committed suicide collectively by choosing to die from Carbon Monoxide poisoning in their dug outs.

Lloyd George, in his War Memoirs, alludes to his astonishemnet that so many millions of men, having endured the most searing ordeal, were able to "pick up" normal and fulfilling life in the post war years. How different from Vietnam and the Falklands! Perhaps this is a function of "national" wars, with the preponderance of young males in service, as compared with wars in which relativley few are sent to fight.

I'll be away for a week, so forgive me for not continuing this discussion until my return.

There is, I feel, much to think about in this thread.

Phil.

Regarding the comparison between the combatants in both WW, most of the survivors of WW1, returned to next to nothing. My father-in-law would not speak about his experiences in the first battle of Ypres and upon his return found that due to him loosing an arm, was deemed unemployable. This is in marked contrast to todays returnees who are supported by the press and media facilities plus a social system that is geared to provide and offer support and rightly so.

[truthergw]

Bob there were many limbless ex-sevicemen. Including my Grandfather who was wounded in the Salient and lost his arm by degrees before eventually succumbing to gangrene. He worked as a carter untill nearly the end. I also remember men wanting an arm or a leg employed at various jobs, most from the Great War but some from WW2. They were generally found work of some kind. Lodgekeepers at factories, clerical work or, in my hometown, helped to run a newspaper sellers pitch by the local paper. In Scotland there were the Lord Roberts Workshops and of course the Earl Haig Fund. All providing work for disabled and blind ex sevicemen. I expect there was the same or parallel provision in other cities and other parts of the UK.

[bob crowther]

Bob there were many limbless ex-sevicemen. Including my Grandfather who was wounded in the Salient and lost his arm by degrees before eventually succumbing to gangrene. He worked as a carter untill nearly the end. I also remember men wanting an arm or a leg employed at various jobs, most from the Great War but some from WW2. They were generally found work of some kind. Lodgekeepers at factories, clerical work or, in my hometown, helped to run a newspaper sellers pitch by the local paper. In Scotland there were the Lord Roberts Workshops and of course the Earl Haig Fund. All providing work for disabled and blind ex sevicemen. I expect there was the same or parallel provision in other cities and other parts of the UK.

truthrgw, I understand what you are saying. Maybe your area was better provided regarding rehabilitation facilities, but I can assure you that in the rural areas it was a different story. Having two children and wife to support, he did finally manage to obtain work on the switchboard of the local paper, but this after job hunting for almost nine months.

[truthergw]

It was certainly far from easy especially for men with family to support. Grandad left 7 kids and gran had a hard struggle to get a pension.

[Guest majy123]

Attempted suicide was a crime. A failed suicide could be charged and they routinely were. Insanity or balance of the mind disturbed, would imply that no crime was committed. I wonder if this allowed assurance policies to be paid? I don't know but have wondered myself.

Do you know what happen if the man was charged with attempted suicide? What was the punishment?

[Ken S.]

I came across a Canadian officer in the casualty list who was "dangerously ill" and not expected to survive. In a memorial book his casualty was listed as a "sad accident". According to his service file he had shot himself after making "certain suppoed reflections detrimental to his moral character". He did in fact survive and was institutionalized and died in the 1950s. His file is somewhat long and slow to load on my computer so I've only read a bit of it, but what I have is quite interesting.

[corisande]

I have analysed the 2200 odd men who joined the Auxiliary Division of the RIC. They were all (virtually all) ex-officers by definition of who could join the ADRIC

At least 24 of them committed suicide in the fullness of time - click for detailed page on ADRIC suicides

Those are the ones I have been able to establish, I suspect with death certs that number would augment

You can of course argue that men wo joined the ADRIC we non typical, or that they suffered extra stress, but it shows the high level of suicides .

[AOK4]

On 01/08/2008 at 21:20, phil andrade said:

German records reveal that 5106 of their soldiers committed suicide in the war. US official records show 967 suicides in the army.

If the German figure is used for extrapolation, we might guess that 25000 military personel committed suicide in the war, on the basis that about one in five of all the military deaths from all causes 1914-1918 were German.

Phil.

@phil andrade Can you say what is your source? Just out of interest as I encounter quite a few (possible) suicides when going through German burial lists and Kriegsstammrollen. I think that number must be way too low.

 

Jan

[GWF1967]

On 13/08/2008 at 18:17, phil andrade said:

. Closer to home, we have the author of Some Desperate Glory, Edmund Campion Vaughn, who killed himself, presumably as a result of his wartime experiences.

Phil.

Edwin Stephen Campion Vaughan is recorded as dying in hospital in 1931 after a doctor, treating him for colitis, wrongly administered cocaine instead of novacaine