rflory Posted 18 February , 2004 Share Posted 18 February , 2004 I was lucky enough to obtain a copy of the Rugby Internationals Roll of Honour for the Great War and it arrived today. A great book with interesting biographies and nice portraits. Below is a list of the names of the officers and men who are in the volume: Lt CH Abercrombie, RN 2Lt Harry Alexander, Grenadier Gds. Cpt D McL Bain, Gordon Highlanders Pvt JAS Baird, NZ Surg DR Bedell-Sivright, RN Cpl Henry Berry, Gloucester Rgt. Cpl RS Black, Canterbury Bn, NZ 2Lt PCB Blair, Rifle Bde 2Lt JT Brett, R Dublin Fus. Cpt, R B Burgess, RE Lt JA Campbell, Inniskilling Dgns Cpt WC Church, 1/8 Scottish Rfl. Cpt EC Deane, MC, RAMC Sjt Henry Dewar, Wellington Mtd Rlfs Lt WM Dickson, A & S Hldrs Cpt AJ Dingle, E Yorks LCol GEB Dobbs, RE Sjt Albert Downing, Wellington Bn, NZ Cpt WV Edwards, R Irish Fus Maj WT Forrest, MC, KOSB Cpt Rowland Fraser, Rifle Bde Sjt David Gallaher, Auckland Bn, NZ 2Lt WP Geen, KRRC Maj RE Gordon, RA Cadet Off. Leonard Haigh, OTC, ASC Cpt RHM Hands, SA Arty LCdr AL Harrison, VC, RN Lt JYM Henderson, Highland Lt Infy Cpt HA Hodges, 3rd Monmouths 2Lt DD Howie, RFA Lt JL Huggan, RAMC Rev RE Inglis, CF Lt PD Kendall, Liverpool Rgt LCpl JA King, Liverpool Rgt Cpt RO Lagden, KRRC Lt Douglas Lambert, The Buffs Sjt SH Ledger, SA Infy Maj BR Lewis, RFA Cpt Basil Maclear, R Dublin Fus 2Lt Vincent M’Namara, RE Pte James M’Neece, NZ Lt AF Maynard, RNVR Lt Eric Milroy, Black Watch LCol ER Mobbs, DSO, Northants 2Lt TM Moll, Leicestershire Rgt Tpr JWH Morkel, 1st Mtd Bde Scouts Corps, SA Sjt WMB Nanson, Manchester Rgt Cpt TA Nelson, 1st Lothian and Border Hse. Lt FE Oakeley, RN Lt RWP Palmer, R Berkshire Rgt Pte James Pearson, 9 Royal Scots Sjt LA Phillips, R Fusiliers Cpt RL Pillman, Royal W Kent Rgt Cpt CM Pritchard, S Wales Borderers Lt JE Raphael, W Riding Rgt Cpt Lewis Robertson, Cameron Hldrs Sjt Andrew Ross, 29th Canadians Pte James Ross, London Scottish Rgt Maj RO Schwarz, KRRC Pte GMV Sellars, Auckland Bn, NZ Lt RF Simson, RFA 2Lt LAN Slocock, Liverpool Rgt Maj Robertson Smyth, RAMC Maj AL Stewart, DSO, R Irish Rifles Lt SSL Steyn, RFA 2Lt WR Sutherland, Seaforth Hldrs Lt FN Tarr, Leicestershire Rgt Cpt AS Taylor, RAMC Engr Cpt CG Taylor, RB Cpl Reginald Taylor, NZ 2Lt HW Thomas, Rifle Bde CSM Richard Thomas, R Welsh Rgt Cpt AF Todd, Norfolk Rgt Lt FH Turner, Liverpool Scottish Lt AL Wade, Middlesex Rgt Lt WM Wallace, Middlesex Rgt, attd. RFC 2Lt PD Waller, SAHA T/Surg JHD Watson, RN Pte David Westacott, Gloucester Rgt Lt JG Will, Leinster Rgt Cpt JL Williams, Welsh Rgt LCol RDG Williams, Royal Fusiliers Cpt CE Wilson, R West Surrey Rgt Lt FR Wilson, Auckland Bn, NZ LCdr JS Wilson, RN Cpt ET Young, 8th Scottish Rifles Regards. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 18 February , 2004 Share Posted 18 February , 2004 Dick What a find! I've been haphazardly researching the Rugby internationals who served for some time now, and would love to have a browse through your new acqusition. One question that does spring to mind when reading the contents list is how it was determined? Presumably it deals only with Empire casualties, hence no French players, but I immediately noticed that no Wallabies are included, even Captain B D Hughes MC who served in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers. Is there an explanation? You're a lucky person. If you don't mind, I'll bother you with look-up requests once I've had another look at my records. Cheers Dolphin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 18 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2004 The author makes no mention of why Australians are excluded. He only states that it includes Rugby Internationals who were killed or died on active service. Regards. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryF Posted 18 February , 2004 Share Posted 18 February , 2004 Dick, What a brilliant resource. Would you have time to look up Richard Davies Garnons Williams fo me? He was my father's CO in the 12th Battalion Royal Fusiliers (unhappily just for a day because RDGW was killed at Loos in September 1915 soon after taking command) . He played for Wales in the first international against England. Won't mention the result in case any of my Welsh friends read this posting! Many thanks, Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 18 February , 2004 Share Posted 18 February , 2004 Dolphin I am currently at work however at home I have brief details of an England U-15 Schools International who lost his life in WW1. Happy to post details if required. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 18 February , 2004 Share Posted 18 February , 2004 Dick - just a follow up on a previous topic we discussed, you may be interested. John Houston of Ballymena, the Irish International Association Football players, has joined the 4th Btn Royal Irish Rifles (Royal North Downs) staioned at Carrickfergus, retaining the rank of Sergeant which he previously held in the 2nd Btn. Sgt Houston formerly played for South End Olympic (a local team), Linfield and for the past three seasons has been attached to Everton. He is a brother of Private Leslie Houston who was killed in action. Oh for a cigarette card of this guy!Best wishes - still looking out for sporting connections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 19 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 19 February , 2004 Would you have time to look up Richard Davies Garnons Williams fo me? Barry: Lieut. Col. Richard Davies Garnons Williams, 12th (Service) Bn, Royal Fusiliers, fell in action at Fosse 8, Loos on 27 Sep 1915 at age 59. Born at Llowes, Radnorshire on 15 Jun 1856 Educated at Sully, Glamorganshire (1862); Magdalen College School, Trinity College, Cambridge and RMC, Sandhurst. Played Rugby at Magdalen College School and at Cambridge. Played in Club football for Newport. In 1881 played for Wales against England and also, under Association rules, played goalkeeper in the Welsh XI. Won many athletic prizes at School, at Cambridge and at Sandhurst and was proud to be a double International Retired as a Major from the 1st Bn, Royal Fusiliers in 1890 having served for 17 years Rejoined his old regiment in Sep 1914 at the age of 58 and went to France in Sep 1915, in which month he was killed in action when in command of his Battalion. I have attached his photo below. Regards. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 19 February , 2004 Share Posted 19 February , 2004 Dick Could I trouble you to look up what the book has on England's Leonard Haigh? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryF Posted 19 February , 2004 Share Posted 19 February , 2004 Dick, Many thanks for posting the information and for scanning in that excellent photograph of the gentleman himself. He cuts a fine figure of a man! You may be interested in the following brief notes about his death. Lt Col Garnons Williams died at the of age 59 leading his men from in front at Loos (Fosse 8). 12RF had landed in France on the 1st September 1915 and had arrived at Loos on the 25th September after several days of forced marches where, without having had a hot meal for some time, they went straight into the trenches (their guide got them lost), and without having had any trench warfare training. Without bombs and with only the ammunition and water they carried, they held their positions for three days against some fierce counter-attacks. They only retired when the Germans occupied the trenches on both flanks. On the 28th, ammunition expended, the survivors fought their way back with the bayonet. Who said anything about the Kitchener Battalions being a bit fragile! A soldier reported soon after the event: “[He - RDGW] led his men on September 25th into trenches lately occupied by the Germans and on the 27th the battalion were in a support trench and the furthest they had captured. This trench became untenable and retirement had to be effected to straighten the line, the supports, both right and left having retired, so that their flanks were “in the air”. As the colonel gave the necessary order to retire and instructions to the machine gun section to fire over the trench to keep back the Germans, he was shot in the head from an adjoining house and did not move again. The soldier who wrote the above adds, “I was very sorry for him, as we could not have had a better, braver officer. He was with us all the time in the front trench and looked after us as well as he could; no man could have done better. Nobody could get back to him.” ” A typical story of the time, I suppose. RDGW first served in the Royal Fusiliers in 1877 (serving with them in Gibraltar and on active service in Egypt) and had taken command of his Battalion on the morning of the 25th September .... Thanks again. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 20 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2004 Could I trouble you to look up what the book has on England's Leonard Haigh? Dolphin: Here is what the book gives on Haigh" Cadet-Officer Leonard Haigh, OTC, ASC Mech. Transport Born at Prestwick on 19 Oct 1880 Educated at Sandringham House School, Southport where he was a member of the Association football and cricket elevens Later played rugby with the Manchester Rugby Football Club By regular stages he played for Manchester, for Lancashire, for North vs. South, for Rest vs. England, and for England vs. South before he gained the first of his seven English caps - namely vs. Scotland, Ireland, and Wales in 1910 and 1911, and vs. France in 1911. Had a remarkable career in that he did not get his Cap until he was thirty years of age He was a good all-rounder, so was always physically fit, being a good fisherman and shot and useful at golf. He was keen on motoring from the mechanical view point; it was due to this knowledge that he was in the OTC of the ASC. Died of double pnuemonia incurred in training in England on 6 Aug 1916. Below is the photo of him from the book. Regards. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 20 February , 2004 Share Posted 20 February , 2004 Dick Thanks very much (again!) for the info and photo of Leonard Haigh. It's the first likeness of the man that I've seen, other than as one of a group of players on the field. As I'm sure we all know, there's a sense of satisfaction in finally seeing someone you've been researching. I'd love to see the images of nearly all the men listed in the book, as (outside the All Blacks) I've been able to track down pictures of only a dozen or so. On reflection, I suspect the Australians are missing from the book due to the home problems of the NSW and Queensland RUs [the ARFU wasn't formed until 1948] after the War. They were probably too busy trying to re-establish the game after shutting down for the duration, as well as fighting off the challenge of Rugby League, to submit a proper response. At the risk of stretching the favour, could you post the photos of Scotland's W M Wallace and Ireland's J T Brett? Thanks in anticipation. Dolphin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 20 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2004 At the risk of stretching the favour, could you post the photos of Scotland's W M Wallace and Ireland's J T Brett? Dolphin: It is 34 minutes after midnite here in California and I am going to bed, but I will post the photos of Wallace and Brett tomorrow. Being in the US, I am not overly familar with Rugby football, so must ask who the 'All Blacks' are. Something in the far reaches of my brain is telling me that they are the New Zealanders. I was quite excited by the photo of one of the Royal Artillery officers in the book because I own his medal - as you say, very nice to be able to put a photo with a name you are researching. Regards. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 20 February , 2004 Share Posted 20 February , 2004 Dick Thanks for the message. You are right, the All Blacks are the New Zealand national Rugby team, named after their black jerseys, shorts and socks. In the same vein the Australians are Wallabies and the South Africans are Springboks. If you're interested, the All Blacks played "All America" in Berkeley on 15 November 1913, back when Rugby was the major football code in California, winning 51-3. The "All America" side was, in fact, all Californian. From the NZ team in that match, A J Downing and H Dewar were to lose their lives in the War. Thank you again (from Australia, on the other side of the Pacific). Dolphin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 21 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2004 At the risk of stretching the favour, could you post the photos of Scotland's W M Wallace and Ireland's J T Brett? Photo of [/b]Lt William Middleton Wallace, 5th Bn, The Rifle Brigade (attached RFC). Regards. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 21 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2004 At the risk of stretching the favour, could you post the photos of Scotland's W M Wallace and Ireland's J T Brett? Photo of 2nd Lt. Jasper Thomas Brett, Royal Dublin Fusiliers Regards. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 21 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2004 And just to round things off - a photo of Lieut. Stephen Sebastian Lombard Steyn, RFA a South African whose father was a cousin of President Steyn of the Orange Free State and who got his International Cap in March 1911 playing for Scotland vs. England, nine months before he received his Blue playing for Oxford vs. Cambridge. Regards. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 21 February , 2004 Share Posted 21 February , 2004 Dick Forgive the hype on this web page but it suggests the name 'All Blacks' arose during the First World War: http://www.peugeot-avenue.com/sport/rugby/...lle_zelande.asp The all black uniform has been their hallmark, with the silver fern displayed on the left chest. The Silver Fern is a beautiful fern that has a lovely green upper surface and silvery underside: http://www.worldsurface.com/browse/entry.asp?entryid=3318 See this link for a photograph of the 'Invincibles', the most legendary example of the All Black teams: http://www.netlist.co.nz/AllBlacks/Index.cfm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 21 February , 2004 Share Posted 21 February , 2004 Dick First of all, thank you again for the photos. If you could let me know the name of the Royal Artillery officer you are interested in, I'll see if I have anything noted about him that might not be in your book. As Robert says, the All Black name certainly didn't arise after the Great War - it was first used to describe the team on the 1905-1906 NZ tour of the United Kingdom. The team carried nearly all before it, losing only the international to Wales 3-0 in controversial circumstances (at least to New Zealanders). However, at least according to my NZ friends, there is some doubt attached to the result of every match in which the All Blacks have been defeated. I remain very much in your debt. I'm interested in images of some of the other men in the book, but I hestitate to keep bothering you. Please let me know if you have the time to scan some more. Cheers Dolphin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 21 February , 2004 Share Posted 21 February , 2004 However, at least according to my NZ friends, there is some doubt attached to the result of every match in which the All Blacks have been defeated. That rings a bell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 21 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2004 If you could let me know the name of the Royal Artillery officer you are interested in, I'll see if I have anything noted about him that might not be in your book. I'm interested in images of some of the other men in the book, but I hestitate to keep bothering you. Please let me know if you have the time to scan some more. The RA officer I am interested in is Lieut. Steyn, the officer's whose photo is in my last post. I have his British (PRO) and South African papers but would be interested in anything you might have on him. As time permits I will post more photos from the book. Regards. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 21 February , 2004 Share Posted 21 February , 2004 What a tremendous find Dick! I've been searching for a copy for years with no success. I thought that I'd add something to your information on Walter R.Sutherland who played for Hawick and Scotland before he was killed near Hulloch in October 1918. Writing in ‘The Border Telegraph’, ‘GHT’ composed an elegy for Sutherland, part of which read: ‘I see a shouting multitude, mad and exultant In their keen impartial pride, throating their hero’s praise With eager eyes and all the wild frenzy of amaze. They feel the glow and glory of his play, and with him pulse and pant No stout Olympian this, but slim and ariel, a soul Sure footed as the gods that sped on Sparta’s shore - The master athlete of the crowning hour, he bore The Border ball afar, and kicked the fairest goal.’ The true measure of Wattle Sutherland’s greatness is that he is still revered in modern day rugby circles. This is doubly remarkable because he flourished in an age full of characters and personalities. Perhaps the most moving tribute to Sutherland was also the most direct: ‘He was made of the stamp of which heroes are made’. What information is in the book relating to Sjt Andrew Ross, 29th Canadians? A splendid biography of Thomas Nelson features in John Buchan's book "These For Remembrance" which is really well worth reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 21 February , 2004 Share Posted 21 February , 2004 Dick, May I join the queue for lookups from Sewell please? There are two men I would be interested in seeing: Harry Alexander, who was a professional baritone; and Horace Wyndham Thomas, a member of King's College Chapel Choir. Thankyou for spoiling us. It is much appreciated. Kate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymro Posted 21 February , 2004 Share Posted 21 February , 2004 Hi there, I've been looking for this book for quite some time and missed it by a couple of days. Called the dealer and it'd been sold (to you as it turns out) the day before. Well done and enjoy it. The joy of collecting is the chase!!! If you see or hear of another copy, could you drop me a line. Best Wishes Jonathan - from South Wales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 21 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2004 've been looking for this book for quite some time and missed it by a couple of days. Called the dealer and it'd been sold (to you as it turns out) the day before. Well done and enjoy it. The joy of collecting is the chase!!! If you see or hear of another copy, could you drop me a line. I am not sure that I am the one that bought the copy that you are mentioning - the dealer I bought it from called me as soon as he received it and it never appeared on his lists, but, if I was the one - as you said, the fun is in the chase and God knows I've missed my share over the years. If there is anything in particular you are interested in let me know. It appears that Dolphin will have me post all the photos before he is done! Regards. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 21 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2004 There are two men I would be interested in seeing: Harry Alexander, who was a professional baritone; and Horace Wyndham Thomas, a member of King's College Chapel Choir. Kate: Here is the photo of 2nd Lt. Harry Alexander, 1st Batt., Grenadier Guards. I was not sure whether you wanted just the photo or the photo and a synopsis of the write-up on him and Thomas. If you wanted the write-ups let me know and I will post them. Regards. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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