Richard Henry Ham

[Frajohn]

Richard Ham was K.I.A 25th September 1915, a member of the 8th Battalion Devonshire Regiment. I would assume that he was killed along with the other 289 men of his battalion who died that day at Loos.

281 are commemorated on the Loos Memorial, 3 are buried in Dud Corner and 5 more are buried not too far away. However Richard Ham is buried about 61 miles away at Citadel New Military Cemetery, Fricourt.

Can anyone suggest a reason why?

regards

John

[chaz]

possible wounded and evacuated, then died.

[Coldstreamer]

Fricourt was captured by the 17th Division on 2 July 1916 but the southern part of the commune, in which this cemetery is situated, was already in Allied hands. On the road from Fricourt to Bray, before it reaches the top of the plateau, are two points 71 metres above sea level, known to the Army as 71 North and 71 South. A little further on was a feature known as the Citadel. The cemetery was begun by French troops and from August 1915, when the first Commonwealth burials were made, it was known as the Citadel Military Cemetery (Point 71). It was used until November 1916 and once in August 1918. The great majority of the burials were carried out from field ambulances before the Battles of the Somme. In the Autumn of 1916 the Citadel became a large camp for units withdrawn from the line. The cemetery contains 378 Commonwealth burials of the First World War, 15 of them unidentified. The cemetery was designed by Sir Edwin Lutyens.

Backs up Chaz's thoughts

[Frajohn]

Thank you for the replies.

The few men who died of wounds that day are buried much closer. SDGW gives Richard Ham as K.I.A, I appreciate that the term is sometimes not accurate. It just seemed an excessive distance to be taken

regards

John

[John_Hartley]

John

I agree with you about the distance. It's a long way.

And, almost certainly, too far to be accounted for him dying at a field ambulance or a CCS having been wounded at Loos. Another might be that his body was not found until very much later and more local cemeteries were no longer open for new burials. Again, it seems much too far away for this.

Therefore, I think you need to consider that he was not, in fact, with 8/Devonshire at the time of death. Look through the records of burials at Citadel for the same date and see if there's any clues. Or try and suss out another Devon battalion whichn was in the vicinity of Fricourt.

John

[Terry Denham]

This may not be appropriate in this case but....

Men who were exhumed from small cemeteries or isolated graves after the Armistice were often moved many miles from their place of death. They were moved to an open cemetery as opposed to the 'nearest' cemetery.

As I said, not sure if that would be a factor in this case but it always should be borne in mind.

[Paul Reed]

You may well find he was not attached to his unit at the time of his death. Two immediate possibilities come to mind: Bde level TMB or Tunnelers. The latter were very active in the Bois Francais sector, and there are several Tunnelers buried in this cemetery; would be interesting to see if he is buried next to any.

In my experience infantry attachments to Tunnelers are only rarely recorded in IWGC records, and indeed elsewhere.

[Frajohn]

John, Terry & Paul

Thank you for your suggestions. I will not be visiting the area of Fricourt until the beginning of June, so I will have a look at his neighbours then. The 2nd Battalion was the only one in the general area.

I understand that the he could have been elsewhere at the time of his death or serving with another unit, but felt that the coincidence of the date was rather unlikely.

In the meantime is there any way I can find out if Richard's remains were re-buried at Fricourt after the war? That is, other than seeing if his records survived.

I have only recently started researching the 8th Devons, so sure to be asking plenty more

kind regards

John

[John_Hartley]

In the meantime is there any way I can find out if Richard's remains were re-buried at Fricourt after the war?

John

Worth contacting CWGC. They don't give high priority to this sort of enquiry but they get there in the end. I've asked them this sort of question a couple of times in the past. Took about 3 months for a response.

J

[Frajohn]

John

Many thanks for the advice, will follow it up.

As to the time, This is my first Battlion research and with almost one thousand casualties, I will anicipate it taking those three months

Regards

John

[PBI]

His Body may well have been found after the War was over and,at that Time the Cemetery that He is buried in may well have been the One that was actually open at the Time for accepting new Burials.I have seen a fair amount of 1st of July Casualtys Buried way up at Cabaret Rouge,nowhere near where they Fell on the Somme.I think Terrys thoughts are spot on,i have come across this type of puzzler a few times,while doing my own research.

[John_Hartley]

John

Here's something to get you head-scratching:

I've had a nosy at the CWGC site. The two guys either side of him are also Devons. The two lower grave numbers from 27/4/16 and the two higher numbers from 7/5/16. 8th or 9th battalions.

Could you have a wrong date of death?

John

[PBI]

CWGC list Him as KIA 25.09.15,so Does SDGW,so that means He did not DOW at a Field Hospital.I still go with the line that his Body was found after the War and Bought to the Cemetery that was accepting Burials at the Time.Terlincthun Cemetery is a prime example of this scenario.

[Frajohn]

John

Got me worried there for a minute! Ham is quite uncommon name, then I saw an 8th Devonshire KIA 5/5/1916 L/Cpl Samuel Ham. but he is remembered on Thiepval.

So, as well as his date of death 25/9/15 being given on; SDGW and CWGC it is also in the Regimental History and the GRO Overseas. Phewww.

Many thanks for taking the time to look

Regards

John

[John_Hartley]

John

This might be me have one of my extra thicko days, but you've lost me.

Are you saying that the chap buried at Citadel must be Samuel Ham and not Richard?

If so, then how do we prove that and where's Richard? If not, then what?

Yours

Confused of Stockport

[PBI]

Richard Ham is Buried at Citadel New Mil Cem.

Samuel Ham has no known Grave,and is commemorated on the Thiepval Mem.

[Frajohn]

John

Sorry for the confusion, PBi has clarified it for me.

I was saying, not very well, that after your e-mail I was worried that I had originally looked up the wrong man.

Regards

John

[John_Hartley]

John

OK. The interesting possible puzzle is that, if Samuel did have a known grave, then it'd be a damn good bet, based on his date of death, that he'd be in the grave now marked for Richard.

It might be worth you doing a bit of research in war diaries, etc into Samuel and the two guys either side of Richard. Were their battalions near Fricourt? Could they also have been moved from elsewhere?

This one feels odd to me. Co-incidence is an odd thing.

John

[PBI]

Samuel Ham was KIA in 1916 and has NO known Grave,but Richard Ham was killed the YEAR before in 1915,and i suspect that His Remains were discovered after the War and were re buried at the nearest CWGC Cemetery that was accepting remains for Burial.Nothing odd about this at all.Samuel Ham is most probably Buried as a Known unto God somewhere in France.London Cemetery at High Wood contains the Graves of Men KIA in Holland/Germany in WW2,plus WW1 men who were found after the War,or their graves became unmaintainable where they were originally Buried, and Re Buried here as it was the only Cemetery at the Time that was Open for accepting new Burials.It would be a Idea to contact the CWGC and the Imperial War Museum,as`both may well be able to tell you when Richard Ham was Found and Interred in His Final resting place.I myself had contacted the IWM regarding my Gt.Uncle,and they came up Trumps,actually telling me the Date and Location that my uncle was found and reinterred (1923).

[Frajohn]

John

Your suggestion is certainly worth looking at.

Talking of coincidences ... There were only 12 casualties within the 8th Devonshires prior to September 25th 1915. Nine of which died at home prior to moving to France. The other three occoured once they had moved to the Loos area. One was Pearce, one was Pettyjohn, the other I cannot recall (at work) but his name also began with P. This was mentionioned in the war diary at the time, with the hope that it was not a bad omen for those members of the battalion with names beginning with the letter P, especially with a big push starting soon. As it turned out, they need not have worried, death was to be evenly shared throughout the alphabet on the 25th September.

Kind regards

John

[John_Hartley]

Samuel Ham was KIA in 1916 and has NO known Grave,but Richard Ham was killed the YEAR before in 1915,

Exactly. It's what makes the co-incidence, potentially, so interesting.

[PBI]

No coincidence really John,Richard Ham may have had a marked Grave in 1915 and he was simply uplifted during a Battlefield clearance aftere the War,or when His remains were found He had some Form of I.D. on His Body.Samuel Ham Didnt have either.There isnt really any mystery here,just check the Batalion War Diarys.There is a YEAR seperating these 2 mens Deaths and Different locations.As i said before the CWGC or IWM may well have the records of Richards Discovery/Burial.

[John_Hartley]

...........just check the Batalion War Diarys................as i said before the CWGC or IWM may well have the records of Richards Discovery/Burial.

Which is exactly what I'd already suggested Frajohn do.

Little real point you & I speculating about what might have happened to these two guys when we're not the ones going to be looking for the answer. But speculation is good fun isn't it? And, yes, I think, without a shadow of doubt, the mysteries warrant further investigation. And, yes, I think there are some mysteries here.

The first is why would Richard's body be brought such a long distance - nearly 100 kilometres - for burial, even if the body was found much later. I find it hard to believe there was not an "open" cemetery much closer.

But the really intriguing matter is the precise place where he is buried. He is listed as being in grave VE13 at Citadel. Between 27 April 1916 and 7 May 1916, 8th & 9th Devons had only 7 KIA. Six are buried at Citadel in adjacent graves to VE13, as follows:-

Robert Calvert, 27 April VE7

Jacob Williams, 27 April VE10

James Swain, 27 April VE11

William Lewis, 1 May VE12

Richard's grave, 25 September 1915 VE13

Frederick Lavis, 7 May VE14

Thomas Oldfield, 7 May VE15

The seventh man is Samuel Ham, KIA on 5 May on recorded on Thiepval. Let's assume for now that he was buried in the normal way. If he was, then you'd expect to find him in VE13 as the death between those of Lewis and Lavis. But you havn't , you've got a supposed burial from a death 8 months prior and 100 kilometres away and, by "co-incidence" it's a man with the same fairly uncommon surname from the same Regiment. This simply doesn't add to me.

John

[Frajohn]

Again thanks for the interest.

Like John, I am intrigued by this mystery.

Looking at the War diary and Regimental history around 5/5/16, 8th Devonshires were in trenches just south of Mametz and east of Fricourt. Although there are reports of a few deaths around this time there is no mention of any men missing, apart from one of the 9th Battlion.

I intend to delve deeper and will report back if I make progress

regards

John

[PBI]

I have to again say John,that there is NO mystery here whatsoever,Richard being KIA in 1915,the Men you list all KIA in 1916,in all probability Richards remains were found after the War and were interred in the CWGC Cemetery that was open for Burials AT THE TIME.I have seen quiet a few Burials in various Cemeterys that do not seem to fit,but when you realise that Soldiers remains were being found well after the War,and were at one time interred in the CWGC Cemetery OPEN at the time for accepting these remains.one example i can give off the top of my head is that of Capt.Arthur Roberts of the Civil Service Rifles,who was KIA at High Wood in 1916,and whose Remains were discovered in 1925.Captain Roberts was Buried at Cerisy-Gailly French National Cemetery,as Caterpillar Valley and London Cemetery and Extension HAD BEEN CLOSED TO FURTHER BURIALS.As i have previously mentioned you can find Men KIA on 01.07.16,whose Remains were found after the War,and were later buried in Cabaret Rouge Cemetery,which is a Good way From the Somme Battlfield where they were KIA.... In Terlincthun Cemetery there is a Mass interment of 49 British and 3 German Soldiers whose remains were discovered near Ovillers in the 1970s,and Buried at Terlincthun,as it was the only CWGC Cemetery OPEN for accepting any new Burials.Another example,again at Cabaret Rouge,is that of Bodies that have come from as Far away as Abeele and Richebourg.Cabaret Rouge itself became a concentration cemetery for 103 Burial Sites from the Nord and Pas De Calais Areas.I did a random check of the 8th Devons KIA on 25.09.15,and so far as all the men i have checked out,are on the loos Memorial,and those that DOW are buried just behind the rear of the British Lines in small Village communal Cems..incidentally one of the devons KIA on 25.09.15 is also buried in Cerisy-Gailly British Cemetery.