andrew wilbraham Posted 16 February , 2004 Share Posted 16 February , 2004 hi i know its along shot but i was wondering if anyone out there had any connections to the 2nd battalion grenadier gaurds as my great grandfather saerjent albert edward gray was in this battalion from the beginning of the war. he died on the somme near grevillers where he was layed to rest. as part of my dissertation i am reconstructing the path that my great grandfather and his battalion took in september 1918 as this was the month that he died of wounds. the outcome of the reconstruction will hopefully enable myself to tred the areas where my grandfather had been and also piece together his and the battalions movements during august/september of 1918. with the sentimentle issue aside i also feel it would serve as a good field walking experience to be able to associate particular men and events to the area in which one is standing. i hope to compile this tour in the coming months and am going out to the front several times to began mapping it out. should anyone have any pointers or connections with the 2nd battalion of grenedier gaurds in 1918 and their whereabouts i be most grateful. i am currently trawling through the war diaries for august and september but as you can imagine it is a rather drawn out process!! anyway fingers crossed. andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew wilbraham Posted 23 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 23 February , 2004 hi, also does anyone know of any examples of this type of battlefield tour which i could use as a pointer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorts Posted 23 February , 2004 Share Posted 23 February , 2004 Hi, This shouldn't be too difficult to do on paper - arm yourself with a trench map of the appropriate area (copies of which are available from the PRO) and the battalion war diary which you already have. As a general guide to the region Major and Mrs Holt's battlefield guide covers all of the main attractions. Translating this to real life locations may be more difficult without trespassing. No doubt another forum member will be able to give a modern French map reference for the appropriate trench maps once you have determined the exact area you want. Rgds, Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew wilbraham Posted 24 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2004 hi, thanks for that, not sure about the exact area i want to cover yet as i have not found out how, or why he was laid to rest in greviellers cemetary. could be that he had been fighting in close proximaty or that he was taken there from elsewhere, more reasearch in the diaries required i think andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 24 February , 2004 Share Posted 24 February , 2004 Hi Andrew There are a few Grenadier casualties buried in Grevillers British Cemetery, Pas de Calais, presumably from wounds received during the actions around Graincourt-Havrincourt on 27 September 1918. According to Ponsonby's, the 2nd Bn. suffered relatively light casualties. I suspect that your great-grandfather was one of those severly wounded on this date and had been evacuated to a base hospital where he sadly died. Certainly for most of September, the 2nd Bn. had been re-organising itself after heavy fighting in August. Incidentally, my great-great Uncle (Charles Frederick Matthews) was also a regular soldier who served with the 2nd Bn. He died of wounds received during the rear guard action at Villers-Cotteretts on 1st September 1914. He was a member of the two platoons who were surrounded and cut-off in the Rond-de-la-Reine. Anyway, I hope that the above helps. If I can be of any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me. On a more personal note, do you have a copy of your great-grandfather's service papers? Best wishes Ed Matthews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew wilbraham Posted 24 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2004 ed, i sadly do not have his service papers the only information i am aware of is what i have found on the soldiers died cd rom. he fought in the final stages of the boer war and missed the end of the gret war by two months which i found particularly sad. Name: GRAY, ALBERT EDWARD Initials: A E Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Serjeant Regiment: Grenadier Guards Unit Text: 2nd Bn. Age: 33 Date of Death: 28/09/1918 Service No: 12489 Additional information: Husband of Edith Gray, of Great Abington, Cambridge. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: XII. C. 16. Cemetery: GREVILLERS BRITISH CEMETERY it would seem that you could be rite about him being wounded in the action around graincourt and havrincourt although i was always under the impression that these areas remained behind the lines throughout almost all of the war. with that said however i could never quite grasp this fact as newfoundland park and thiepval are so close to the said areas?? thankyou for the information though it seems as though i have now got a staring point from where i need to work backwards from. i am only looking at the last two months of his life at the moment as i need to focus on a particular period. i do however want the battlefield tour to remain useful to tourists ect.. but at the same time avoid geneology and ancdotal history. regards andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 24 February , 2004 Share Posted 24 February , 2004 Hi Andrew I would write to the Regimental Archivist, Grenadier Guards, Wellington Barracks for a copy of your great-grandfather's service record. Fortunately, the Guards hold copies of all service papers of former members including the odd medal forwarding slip, etc. As you are a direct descendant, I expect that there will be no charge for this. Are you sure that your great-grandfather served at the end of the Boer War? I note that he would have only been 16-17 yrs old. In addition, his service number indicates that he enlisted around 1905-06 (I'm at work at the moment but will be able to provide a more accurate date when I look at my database!). Do you hold his campaign medals or have you looked him up on the QSA/KSA medal rolls? Again from memory, Havrincourt sat astride the Hindenburg Line with Graincourt situated just behind the Support Lines to the NE of Havrincourt. Lord Gort (future commander of the BEF in the next War) i/c 1st Bn. won his VC on 27th September for the attack on Premy Chapel hill. Anyway, I hope the above helps. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew wilbraham Posted 25 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 25 February , 2004 hi, thanks for that i will certainly write the regimental archivist for some assistance. i do not have his campaign medals and it is a bit of a mystery of why not as well!! i remember tham as a boy hanging in a frame at my grandfathers house, but since the subsequent death of my grandfather and grand mother i have lost the whereabouts of them. its abit of a sore point!!?? i do however have a couple of pictures of him in his uniform and a shooting trophy that he won in 1912 but thats all i can find at the moment. i have looked him up at the pro and found that he won the 1914 star and i think the MM. I cant be sure of that as i do not have the paper work handy. the boer war reference was a mystery to me also, it was something that my grandfather said, he mentioned that his dad had fought in the boer war before going off to france and flanders but i am unable to find any evidence of this as yet!. anyway thank you for the help andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 25 February , 2004 Share Posted 25 February , 2004 Hi Andrew I'm sorry to hear that you've lost track of your great-grandfather's medals and I hope that you're re-united with them soon! I can certainly understand your feelings on this matter....... Sgt. Gray is not listed as having won the Military Medal in Ponsonby's. I've had a quick look at the 1914 Star medal roll and can confirm that your great-grandfather proceeded to France with the 1st Bn. on 6 October 1914. There are no further details against his entry. A copy of his service papers will confirm posting dates to various battalions and details of any wounds received in action. Hope this helps. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew wilbraham Posted 25 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 25 February , 2004 hi, thanks, i have just sent off for his service records but that clears up one mystery about him and the MM. andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 25 February , 2004 Share Posted 25 February , 2004 Indicentally, may I ask what degree you are studying for and where? I was only thinking that I wish I had done something similar at Uni....... Cheers Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 25 February , 2004 Share Posted 25 February , 2004 Andrew That's not to say that Ponsonby's may well be incorrect. His service papers will no doubt confirm. Do you know if he continued to serve after the war? Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew wilbraham Posted 25 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 25 February , 2004 ed im doing a single honours history degree at in cambridge at the polytechnic, its never too late. i went back as a mature student after 8 years out of education, thought id be one of the oldest at a mere 27 surrounded by 18 year olds but that was not the case, there are many alot older than me. the degree course is basically anything from 1600 onwards but generally you choose the path that you take. best decision i have ever made!!! andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew wilbraham Posted 25 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 25 February , 2004 ed, sadly not he died of wounds in sept 1918---two months to go and he would have made it but it was not to be. andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 25 February , 2004 Share Posted 25 February , 2004 Of course he DoW in September 1918....that's what we were talking about earlier - sorry! Curiously, the 1914 Star roll doesn't mention the fact that he died but I expect it's just one of those anomalies! Your degree course sounds fascinating...such scope! Good luck with it all. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 25 February , 2004 Share Posted 25 February , 2004 Andrew I've finally had chance to look up your great-grandfather on my database and I can confirm that his 1914 Trio was sold by DMD Services (medal dealer) in August 1999 and subsequently on SPEEDBID in August 2002. Unfortunately, I'm unable to add anything further. However, I think it is possible to place an advert on the SPEEDBID website (www.speedbid.com). Hopefully, this will bring you a step closer to being re-united with your great-grandfathers medals! Best wishes Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew wilbraham Posted 25 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 25 February , 2004 ed that is excellent news thanks could you let me know of a rough guide price so that i do not completely robbed blind in my desperation! thanks very much for your help andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Woods Posted 25 February , 2004 Share Posted 25 February , 2004 Andrew If your relative was out with the 1st Bn in Oct 1914 he would have served with 2 of my Great Uncles who were killed at Ypres in 1914 ( see my post re 1st Bn ). I can give you plenty of info about that period. If he then transferred to the 2nd Bn until the end of the war he would have served with my other Great Uncle who happily survived. I can't trace my relatives medals either but visited the Grenadier Guards curator at Wellington Barracks and they have a huge collection of medals that is not displayed to the general public. You could try writing to Captain Rolfe who is the medal archivist there to see if they have the medals - I can give you the address if you need it. Ed Any response on the Toon medal and please let me know what your ebay name is so we don't get in each others way. I have some 30 or so medals plus a few death plaques and other memorabilia if you're still interested in a swap!! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 25 February , 2004 Share Posted 25 February , 2004 Hi Andrew I'm afraid that internet auctions have been responsible for massive hikes in medal prices over the last couple of years. A 1914 Trio casualty to a Sergeant in the Grenadier Guards would certainly fetch £200+ and I suspect as much as £250. I can certainly place an advert on the SPEEDBID site on your behalf if you want me to? Otherwise, I'll think you need to register yourself as a bidder although this shouldn't be a problem. Certainly an advert does not commit you to purchase but you might like to say that you are keen to know their 'present location' and that it is for the family. Unfortunately, unlike E-Bay, it's not possible to easily view past auctions otherwise we could have got hold of the vendors details. However, it's reassuring to know that they are out there somewhere! Aside from also putting an advert in Medal News or in the Orders & Medals Research Journal, I could also try and dig out a contact address for DMD Services (I think that they are still operating) - they may or may not still have records of the buyer back in August '99. Best wishes Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew wilbraham Posted 25 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 25 February , 2004 ed if at all possible any help would be gratefully received, if any of this comes off you shall be renamed to SAINT ed, i had no thoughts of even where to start to look after the disapearance of the medals some 15-20 years ago, if thats the going rate then thats what i will pay( there may also be a drink in it for you) thanks again andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 25 February , 2004 Share Posted 25 February , 2004 Ok Andrew, I'll start with the SPEEDBID site. Will let you know how I get on. Cheers Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew wilbraham Posted 26 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 26 February , 2004 ed, just a quick note after speaking with my mother she seems to recall the medals disapearing?? alot earlier probably around 40-50 years ago, this makes it even more amazing that they may have turned up!! andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 26 February , 2004 Share Posted 26 February , 2004 Hi Wiffy mate, I have just been doing some research for someone on an MM winner who was killed in March 1918 with this unit. I have the period for March 1918 scanned plus some maps, if of interest? Email if you want copies. Hope to see you on the battlefields sometime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew wilbraham Posted 26 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 26 February , 2004 paul, hope you are well that would be great if you could do that thankyou. im trying to build up as much info as possible about my great grandfather in order to complete a mini dissertation about him and his unit on the battlefields with the end of it being the day he died. i feel the piece will serve as a good source for battlefield exploration butn also with the death of the main 'character' be a reminder of the consequences of the war. im hoping to get out there asap to do some topography of the area surrounding his unit, posibbly march and again in april. anyway hope to see you soon and thanks for any help wiffy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew wilbraham Posted 1 March , 2004 Author Share Posted 1 March , 2004 hi any luck so far ed andre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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