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museumtom

How many Canadian Soldiers died

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johnny_doyle
The school has him down as "Capt" but the Irish reports have him as "Lt" !?

doesn't seem to be any evidence to show that he was a Captain. Possibly spin by the school or his wife?

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pob9937

Hi,

I was checking through the 1916 witness statements (Irish Volunteers wrote them in the 1930s) and they mention

killing a British soldier in Nth King St. He was trying to get close to a position to throw a grenade.

The statement goes on to say that they ( the Volunteers) found out that he was a canadian on leave from the front in France.

No names though

Paul

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BrendanLee
One better possibility was for a soldier named Pte. Neville Nicholas Fryday, 75th Battalion Central Ontario Regiment, who died April 30th, 1916. [[Later note: I didn't read the above posting which mentions this man until after I made this post. The above post has excellent genealogical details for this soldier]].

I found this article which I posted a few years ago to Fryday's Canadian Virtual Memorial record. It also mentions another Canadian soldier killed in Ireland. Attestation for Fryday.

As you can see from his Memorial Record, he is buried in Dublin, Ireland.

- Marika

FRYDAY.jpg

The one thing this discussion shows is the difficulty in researching Irish records from the WW1 period. I have just finished (well almost) compiling a list of all the British Military KIA during the 1916 Rising. I came across Fryday while doing my research and have listed a few points about him below:

I could not find any information to prove that Fryday was ever in Canada, it was not unusual for Irishmen to enlist in non Irish regiments and a popular belief at the time was that joining a Canadian or Australian Regiment would ensure residency in that country after the war so Fryday may have had an eye on the future and intended living in Canada after the war.

Fryday is recorded on the Irish census as living with his brother in Tipperary in 1911 although his brother has a different surname St Seger. His mother must have remarried, considering the 40 year difference in age between Fryday and his brother this suggests his mother remarried late in life.

As with many young Irishmen at the time employment opportunities were very limited. As the family farm was in the hands of his older brother who had a son Fryday would have been left with the typical Irish choice of the time, if he had been Catholic it would have been the priesthood, Church of Ireland it was the Army.

The CWG site gives Fryday's mother's address as Mill House, Shankhill County Dublin which would strongly suggest that he was on leave visiting his Mother, Shankhill is about 10 miles from Dublin city. It is also possible considering Fryday's age that he may have just joined the army and was living with his mother awaiting call up.

www.irishmedals.org

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corisande
Fryday is recorded on the Irish census as living with his brother in Tipperary in 1911 although his brother has a different surname St Seger. His mother must have remarried, considering the 40 year difference in age between Fryday and his brother this suggests his mother remarried late in life.

I took a look at the 1911 census, and am not quite sure how you draw that conclusion. He is down as a lodger in that household (In addition I think it is a transcription error as well as the name is presumably "St Leger"

,

St Seger , John , 59 , Male , Head of Family , Church of Ireland , Kings County , Farmer, Read and write - Widower

St Seger, Annie , 29 , Female , Daughter , Church of Ireland , Kings County , - Read and write , - Single

St Seger , James , 22 , Male , Son , Church of Ireland , Kings County, Farmer's Son, Read and write, - Single

Fryday , Nevill , 11 , Male , Boarder , Church of Ireland , Tipperary , Scholar , Read and write ,- Single

Fryday , Thomas , 8 , Male , Boarder , Church of Ireland , Tipperary ,Scholar ,Read and write - , Single

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corisande
I could not find any information to prove that Fryday was ever in Canada

His attestation papers available from Canada show that he had his medical in Toronto

Attestation paper front

Attestation paper back

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Canadawwi

To add to the last post, the attestation itself is from Toronto, probably at the Toronto Recruiting Depot, as I recognize the signature. It fits in with a group of similar ones I have looked at for the 75th Battalion. He was in Toronto at that time. From looking at a great many attestations and their corresponding newspaper reports, there were quite a lot of men who were newer immigrants to Canada who enlisted in CEF units in Canada. Most had been in Canada for around 5 - 10 years by the time the war began.

Also, if you read the newspaper article, he is described as a "Toronto Soldier", and that he was part of the Toronto troops that left the city "about six weeks ago".

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BrendanLee

Hi,

Sorry, I did not have my glasses on when reading the census and mistook Boarder as Brother. The mystery only deepens with every document relating to Fryday that comes to light. The Irish census records him as 11 years old in 1911 yet 4 years later he is recorded as 21 years and 10 months old on his attestation when in Canada. He is recorded on the CWG site as being 17 when he died in 1916, sounds a bit like the curious case of Mr. Button. He is recorded in several books as the youngest soldier to die in the 1916 Rising but his attestation papers would prove that this was not the case.

His first name on the Irish census is spelled without the e on the end, I wonder if it is the right person. The CWG record him as being born Ballydough Milestone, Thurles, Co. Tipperary, the Ballydough should be Ballyduff which is very close to Timoney Tipperary where he is recorded on the census.

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Broznitsky

I would not trust birth dates on Attestation papers as gospel. Although this was meant to be a statement of truth, there are hundreds, even thousands of examples of incorrect dates, addresses, name spellings, etc.

In this case, the census would be more trustworthy.

IMHO.

Peter in British Columbia

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corisande

There is a death reg for him, you can buy a death cert

Name: Neville Fryday

Registration district: Dublin South

Record type: DEATHS

Registration date - quarter and year: Apr - Jun 1916

Estimated birth year: 1894

Age: 22

Mother's surnames:

Film number: 0101606

Volume: 2

Page: 568

Digital GS number: 4201710

Image number: 00531

Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes 1845-1958

However... bit odd this, there is no record of a birth of Neville Fryday (or Friday) in Ireland (nor in England).

I tried to search for any Nevilles born in Tipperary or Dublin, but again none with anything like Fryday.

I would have said that he signed up with a false name, but he is on the census 1911 as we have seen

The only other explanation I could offer was that he was born illegitimate, and his original birth was under another name.

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corisande

I always like this sort of problem

It turns out, see this tree

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/11211429/...506357213?ssrc=

that Neville was about the 10th (depending on when he was actually born) of the 13 children of Elizabeth Anne Preston Wayland b 6 8 1864 d 1942 who first married William Jack Fryday b 18 3 1849 d 23 3 1905. Her first husband appears to have died in USA and she later marries a man called Kinnear in Ontario.

This is presumably why she is not in 1911 census in Ireland, and why she had Neville boarding in Tipperary.

I still cannot see why Neville had her down as Elizabeth Fryday in his enlistment papers, nor can I find his birth details in Ireland.

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BrendanLee

Many of the Irish public records were destroyed in the fighting at the outbreak of the Civil war. The National Archive of Ireland do hold copies of many Church of Ireland records but unfortunately none for Thurles which is in the C of I dioceses of Cashel.

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corisande

From the Irish Gov web site

From a genealogical point of view, the most significant losses were:

* the surviving 19th century census returns,

* about two-thirds of pre-1870 Church of Ireland parish registers

* all of the surviving wills probated in Ireland.

While the loss of the census returns in particular still casts a long shadow over Irish research, any records not in the PRO in 1922 have survived. These include non-Church of Ireland parish records, civil records of births, marriages and deaths, property records and later censuses.

The post 1864 Civil Records still exist and can be searched here

http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch...hable;c=1408347

This man's birth details should be there, irrespective of whether Thurles CofI records survived or not

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Arnhem44

I believe there's a rifle used by the Canadians during the uprising on display in Collins Barracks and from the book Our War brought out a few years back mentions the presence of Canadians during the battle,I must have a look again and see does it mention any names.

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BrendanLee
From the Irish Gov web site

From a genealogical point of view, the most significant losses were:

* the surviving 19th century census returns,

* about two-thirds of pre-1870 Church of Ireland parish registers

* all of the surviving wills probated in Ireland.

While the loss of the census returns in particular still casts a long shadow over Irish research, any records not in the PRO in 1922 have survived. These include non-Church of Ireland parish records, civil records of births, marriages and deaths, property records and later censuses.

The post 1864 Civil Records still exist and can be searched here

http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch...hable;c=1408347

This man's birth details should be there, irrespective of whether Thurles CofI records survived or not

[/color]

Also from the National Archives of Ireland site:

"Notwithstanding the destruction of much material due to the fire in the Public Record Office of Ireland in 1922, Church of Ireland registers survive for about one-third of the parishes throughout the country and those for the pre-1870 period are public records. Many Church of Ireland registers are still held by the local clergy, although some are in the National Archives, the Representative Church Body Library, Dublin and the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland, Belfast."

I notice in the records pre-1870 are public records, I wonder if this means those after 1870 are not public records. As Fryday was born after 1870, the earliest date of his many births so far is 1893, his record may not be available. The Genealogy section of the C of I website gives details on how to obtain C of I records, the site address is www.ireland.anglican.org

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johnny_doyle

on Neville's attestation paper front cover, he gives his mothers address as being in Maunamount(?), Dundrum, Co Tipp. I believe the address is for this entry in the 1911 census :

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/page...damount/815617/

This address matches with the John Nicholas Fryday who enlisted into the Canadian Army in Winnipeg on 14/6/1915

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databas...p?id_nbr=404479

There are still Fryday's living at this address today.

When Harry Fryday enlists in Nov 1914, the mother (Lizzie Fryday) has an address in Toronto. When William and Neville enlist in July 1915 the mother's address is the address in Dundrum, Co Tipp.

The mother's Toronto address doesn't match the address of the Fryday children in the Canadian census of 1911 which has 2 of them (James and Ellen) in Wellesley St, North Toronto and 2 of them (Frank and Ruth plus Frank's wife) at 463 Pape Ave, Toronto East.

A picture of Elizabeth Fryday is online at :

http://ryeland.com/showmedia.php?mediaID=8...edialinkID=1104

On CWGC, Elizabeth's address is given as the Mill House, Shankhill, Co Dublin. Possibly this house? :

http://www.southdublinimages.ie/searchselection.aspx?id=2141

At least 3 members of the mother's Wayland family (all of them appear to be her cousins) were in Dublin according to the 1911 (and presumably all were there in 1916 and afterwards) :

- Francis Henry Wayland, a journalist, was living in Rathgar.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/page...lle_Road/61322/

- Dr Robert Shaw Wayland was living in Harcourt St. He get's a brief mention in the 1916 Rebellion Handbook as working in the improvised hospital in The High School in Harcourt Street (the school is now in Rathgar)

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/page...ourt_St_/73289/

- Palliser Wayland in Glasnevin

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000038892/

Re the note about a Canadian shot/killed(?) in the North King Street area, unlikely to have been Neville who appears to have been wounded and taken to Mercer's Hospital (1916 Rebellion Handbook) which is between Dublin Castle, Stephen's Green, Trinity College and the Royal College of Surgeons.

Interesting that Neville's buried in Mount Jerome; would have thought Deansgrange. Surprised to see a Scots Guard among the 49 Deansgrange burials.

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gaelgoir

This is the account of the incident at Guinness Brewery published in the Guinness story, the family teh business and the black stuff by kind permission of the author Edward Bourke. The Dublin Fusiliers were headquartered at St Catherine's Church and held a line along Thomas street as part of the cordon around various insurgent posts.

A picket of Dublin Fusiliers under Captain McNamara was placed in the Robert Street grain store as part of the force surrounding the South Dublin Union. The grain store was accessible by an iron bridge across the canal. Mr McMullen of the brewery informed Captain McNamara and his sergeant, Quartermaster Robert Flood, that the nightwatchman on duty would have access to the store via the bridge. However, confusion occurred on the night of 29 April 1916 when Captain McNamara became ill and was replaced by Lieutenant Lucas of King Edward’s Horse. The night clerk, a Mr Rice, went to Robert Street with Lucas. Robert Flood, the nervous sergeant in charge of the picket was unable to recognise the officer and the watchman, held them prisoner and then had them shot. When Mr Rice failed to return to his lodgings at 101 James’s Street, his colleague and housemate, Mr Dockery became concerned. Mr Dockery then went with Lt Warswick to the Robert Street grain store and again Sergeant Flood had both men shot dead. The sergeant was eventually disarmed by a Captain Mariott and Mr Williams. He was later court-martialled for murder but found not guilty. Lieutenants Lucas and Warswick of King Edward’s Horse were buried in Dublin Castle and exhumed in the 1960s. Lieutenant Lucas was reburied at the Blackhorse Avenue military cemetery.

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BrendanLee

There was a story that his brother Henry George Fryday enlisted for Neville, Henry is 6 on the 1901 census so that would make him 20 or 21 when attending the medical making it appear that Neville was 20 or 21.

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Fryday

While many public records were destroyed by fire post WW1, the majority of Church of Ireland records were not .

Today no actual Church of Ireland registers reside in the National Library in Dublin (only microfiche or microfilm copies of a limited proportion do so), the majority of information including registers will be found in one of the following locations

  • The RCB (church of Ireland ) Library, Dublin 14
  • In the custody of the Parish Rector (where Parishes have been joined as churches have closed the present day Rector of the union of parishes ay have all the registers of the previous Parishes in their custody)
  • And in some other cases Church of Ireland Diocesan Offices and some Cathedral Libraries may hold registers and other valuable information documentsfor research .

All church records access is subject to supervision by the custodian and therefore available times to view are in the main by appointment (in Parishes it would be appointment only).

Regarding Private Neville Fryday

The following information is from documented records, registers and private family records and documentation.

Neville Nicholas Fryday was only 16 and a half years old when he was shot by sniper outside the front gates of Trinity College Dublin while on active service and died approximately one week later from his injuries in Mercers Hospital, D2.

He was born 3rd of September 1899 in County Tipperary

Baptismal (Parish) register records show he was Baptised 8th October 1899.

On the Death of his father (Died in Tipperary, Ireland at Ballydough) in 1905 he was boarded out with one brother to his ‘St Leger’ Relatives and his mother took his other siblings with her to Canada

This is all verified by the details in the 1911 census where his age is given as 11 and his status a boarder, The St Legers were on his mothers side, family.

Soon after 1911 Neville and his brother joined their mother and siblings in Canada.

Family records verify he lied about his age to sign up in the Canadian Army (as many young men did) He enlisted 19th July 1915 (as per attestation Papers) and gave his age as 21 yrs and 10 months, he had no siblings of that age other than the same brother Henry (Harry) George who enlisted with him and also served in the 75th Battalion. Other family members also enlisted including both an uncle John Nicholas and 2 brothers the aforementioned

Henry (Harry) George and William all of whom also enlisted in the Canadian Army and saw service in the Great war as did another Fryday cousin from New Zealand who died in service.

According to Canadian military records Neville Nicholas Fryday died on active service in the Great War in Dublin rather than France.

Having been sent from Canada to England with his battalion (Via Liverpool) for trench warfare training before deployment to France. Both he and his brother Henry (Harry) with the rest of 75th battalion were diverted to Dublin in order to quell the rebellion which had broken out. This is based on documentation from Canadian military records (can be access online and Canadian relatives have viewed them in person), these details are now also available from a number of local history and Irish history publications.

On his death his mother who was back in Dublin at the time (she was frequently back and forth to Canada and Ireland) refused to pay to have his body repatriated to Canada, so on the instructions of his sister Metta (pronounced Mee-Ta) his body was interred in Mount Jerome Cemetry, Metta being buried along side him much later.

The story of his being on leave was more to hide family embarrassment and shame at his being killed in active service fighting his own people in Ireland rather than defending small nations in France. He was not spoken of within the family in Ireland till the death of his nephew in 2000 when somebody asked ’‘is he going to be buried with Neville? “And all but one family member at the funeral asked "who is Neville?". Since 2000 then his Irish family and Canadian family have extensively researched his story and sifted through the family fiction versus the facts!

His name is included in the memorial to Irish men who died in the Great War erected at Islandbridge Dublin, unveiled in 2011, and to which representatives from his Tipperary Family were invited to attend.

Regards The Fryday Family (Ireland)

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Fryday

"The mother's Toronto address doesn't match the address of the Fryday children in the Canadian census of 1911 which has 2 of them (James and Ellen) in Wellesley St, North Toronto and 2 of them (Frank and Ruth plus Frank's wife) at 463 Pape Ave, Toronto East."

Lizzie 'Wayland' Fryday - Nevilles mother seems to not have been against boarding her children out in pairs to relatives this charateristic might well explain the Canadian Census entries!!

"On CWGC, Elizabeth's address is given as the Mill House, Shankhill, Co Dublin. Possibly this house? :" - Possibly the home of some of her relatives ' (She married first name unkown Kinnear in 1932 in Canada and returned to live in Co Down Ireland with him, when Mr Kinnear died in 1936 she returned to Canada and lived with a son. She died in Toronto Canada 6th April 1942.

Lizzie Wayland Fryday when married to William Fryday in Tipperary lived in a place called 'Ballydough' by the family, real name of location is 'Aughvalledagh' near Hollyford, c5miles from an other Fryday family home at Maudmount. Family history has records of her frequent calls to Maudmount (her late husbands cousins) on return trips from Canada seeking funding for her return trips to Canada to be with her children! She was for the time a frequent transatlantic voyager!

The Fryday family name would have been peculiar to the Dundrum area of Tipperary at the time.

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BrendanLee

According to Canadian military records Neville Nicholas Fryday died on active service in the Great War in Dublin rather than France.

Having been sent from Canada to England with his battalion (Via Liverpool) for trench warfare training before deployment to France. Both he and his brother Henry (Harry) with the rest of 75th battalion were diverted to Dublin in order to quell the rebellion which had broken out. This is based on documentation from Canadian military records (can be access online and Canadian relatives have viewed them in person), these details are now also available from a number of local history and Irish history publications.

It is unlikely that Fryday or the 75th Battalion were diverted from the UK to Ireland. There are no records of the 75th being posted to Ireland in the official list of units and battalions sent to Ireland to quell the Rising. Fryday was shot on Monday the 24th by Rebels attempting to take Dublin Castle, he died 6 days later, he was shot two or three hours after the Rising began. According to official reports reinforcements from England did not arrived until the 26th.

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Fryday

I have only given the details regarding Neville Fryday, his movement and that of his Battalion,and his status as found in the Canadian Military Records viewed by one of my (and his) cousins in Canada (she was quite delighted not just to find him there but also the details available regarding his Battalion).

I personally would go by original official records over reports (which tend to be more subjective, though maybe I have misunderstood your sources here) in research (there are subtle differences), but that is just me :) .

Just an observation, Liverpool is only a few hours by sea from Dublin and telegraph did exist in 1916.

On issues of research it is also well worth noting (and this is all research and not just this instance) that in a chaotic situation local official reports and records may or may not have been written down for some days (notes taken to provide detail for later reports can subsequently be mis read or mis recalled) which can result in problematic timelines! This all hampers the unravelling of the facts and makes it sometimes difficult to accept that previous known details once though of as fact may not be a fixed as once thought (been there on this one and in other research).

The truth is out there :) !!

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BrendanLee

I have only given the details regarding Neville Fryday, his movement and that of his Battalion,and his status as found in the Canadian Military Records viewed by one of my (and his) cousins in Canada (she was quite delighted not just to find him there but also the details available regarding his Battalion).

I personally would go by original official records over reports (which tend to be more subjective, though maybe I have misunderstood your sources here) in research (there are subtle differences), but that is just me :) .

Just an observation, Liverpool is only a few hours by sea from Dublin and telegraph did exist in 1916.

On issues of research it is also well worth noting (and this is all research and not just this instance) that in a chaotic situation local official reports and records may or may not have been written down for some days (notes taken to provide detail for later reports can subsequently be mis read or mis recalled) which can result in problematic timelines! This all hampers the unravelling of the facts and makes it sometimes difficult to accept that previous known details once though of as fact may not be a fixed as once thought (been there on this one and in other research).

The truth is out there :) !!

The only causality I could find that matched Fryday was shot at the latest 2.30pm. It took 7 hours to sail from Liverpool to either Dublin Port or Kingstown. I know the British Army are well known for their ability to organise and deploy troops but I think Dublin to Liverpool in two and a half hours would be impossible. Newspaper reports state that only the troops inside Dublin Castle engaged the Rebels, after the Rebels were unable to gain access to the Castle they took over several surrounding buildings it was while this was happening that Fryday was hit, there were no troops sent from anywhere until at the earliest 7.30pm, long after Fryday was admitted to hospital.

The reference to Fryday being on Active Service in the Canadian records does not mean he was posted to Dublin by either the Canadian or British Army, had he died in an accident while training in Liverpool or fell overboard on his way to London he was still regarded as being on Active Service.

I think your relatives who said that Fryday was shot by accident were not far off the mark, from any either official Military records or Civil records I have seen I think Fryday was shot by a Rebel who, having failed to gain entry to Dublin Castle, fired at any uniform he could see and just happened to hit Fryday who was walking past Trinity on some business totally unconnected to the Rising.

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Dublin Fusilier

sorry to re-hash an old thread which some very interesting information has been posted. It is my understanding that some Canadian troops on leave in Dublin took part in the Rising .

I came accross a mention of Fryday in the Irish Times dated 29 April 1916 died "as a result of wounds received in action in Dublin 27th April. Private Neville N. Fryday Canadian Contigent son of the late Wm Fryday Co. Tipperary"

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