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museumtom

How many Canadian Soldiers died

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museumtom

I found a newspaper cutting of a Tipperaryman who joined the Canadians was sent to Dublin and was shot by the rebels. I have never heard of the Canadians being involved have you?

Regards.

Tom.

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irishmen1916

Hi Tom, I have never heard of Canadian Soldier KIA durning the 1916 Rising, thats not to say that it did not happen, and it is something that would have been know.Can you post the cutting ? Peter

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laughton

Yes, the Canadians were sent. I have read the story and so I will go and see if I can find the reference. Back later!

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beaverpass

The report of Fryday's death in Dublin published in the Topronto "Globe" states that "he was on leave and visiting his mother". This is probably true, because the participation of Canadian troops in suppressing the rebellion would have been a major news event in Canada and there is no mention of it in the press.

The London Times published several separate "Dublin" casualty lists in April and May. The names of all military and police killed, wounded and missing are given, also the units in which they were serving. No Canadians appear in these lists.

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museumtom

According to the cutting it says 'while on duty in Dublin' and not while visiting his Mother in Tipperary.

Regards.

Tom.

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beaverpass

The clipping I posted above actually reads "while on leave and visiting his mother in Dublin". Also a Dublin address for her at CWGC, so his parents appear to have relocated to Dublin prior to his death.

I 'm still looking for him in the casualty lists (on-line newspaper archive). Was the clip you posted also from the Toronto "Globe"?

Unfortunately the 75th Battalion War Diary does not begin until August 1916 when they embarked for France, so no mention of him there.

Cheers, Ken

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irishmen1916

Morning Tom, Thanks for posting the cutting, and it came as news to me, I see by kens reply that he might have been on leave, I worked for a Museum in Dublin for a number of years that had a big 1916 archive, and never came across any Canadian official involvement , how ever, having said that ,there where a large number of service men from different Regs./Batt's. who where on leave in Dublin at the start of the Rising, and joined in at different parts of the City to help in the defense, so it is possible that Pt. Friday was both on leave and died on duty. Peter

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chrisharley9

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irishmen1916

Hi Chris, This is new to me, the first time I have ever come across Canadian Soldiers

in Dublin during the Rising, is there any records of when they came to Ireland ? Would it

have been a number of company's or the whole 25th Batt. that came?

I see his death was on the 30th April, the day after the Rising ended, of course he could

have died from wounds, there is also the mention of a Montreal Solider KIA, is there any mention of a name.? Peter

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chrisharley9

Personally I reckon this was just a couple of lads on leave & the media jumping on the bandwagon - nothing new there

Chris

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laughton
Would it

have been a number of company's or the whole 25th Batt. that came?

Nothing in the War Diary of the 25th Battalion relating to that event that I could find. Appears they are quite active at the front.

http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/e/e039/e000966369.jpg

(to advance through pages change the last digits)

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beaverpass

Fryday was not in the 25th-at least not at the time of his death. He was a member of the 75th, which arrived in France on 12 August 1916.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "death of a Montreal soldier at the hands of the Sinn Fieners" mentioned in the above clipping may refer to 2nd Lt. Algernon Lucas of the 2nd King Edward Horse, a Canadian, formerly of Montreal.

2nd Lt. Lucas was in fact summarily executed at the malt-house of the Guinness brewery on the night of 29 April by Sergeant Robert Flood of 5th Dublin Fusiliers after arousing the suspicion of the defenders when he was discovered on the premises in the company of a civilian.

During a brief interrogation carried out by torch-light inside the malt-house, Lucas was discovered to be wearing civilian clothing under a British tunic. His "strong American accent" aroused further suspicion. Lucas and the civilian William John Rice, a Guinnness employee were then shot by Flood, who testified that he was certain his position was about to be attacked.

Sgt. Flood was court-martialled, cleared all on charges of murder and acquitted. Testimony at trial revealed that Lt. Lucas was doing intelligence work in Dublin and had been seen in "mufti" on many occasions before his death.

(Archives of the London Times and Toronto Globe, June 1916)

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irishmen1916

Thanks Ken, I will have to look into this further, I have to admit that I have never come across this before, this might have been because the Coldhurst case took the hgh light after the Rising, and of course other events. Peter

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beaverpass

Peter,

Some additional info that may be of use should you want to look further into this incident.

Sgt. Flood's court-martial was held at Richmond Barracks, Dublin on 12-13 June 1916, presided over by Major-General Lord Cheylesmore. Mr. Hanna, K.C. appeared for the accused and Maj. Kimber conducted the prosecution.

The London Times published detailed accounts of the trial in it's 13 and 14 June 1916 editions, page 3 in both cases.

Cheers, Ken

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johnny_doyle

an old thread I know but I've been reading up once again on the Easter Rising, the IAVTC etc.....

In an article in the Irish Times reviewing the book 50 Things You Didn't Know About 1916, Neville Fryday is put as the youngest soldier to die at 16 1/2years old.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weeken...4244967023.html

Sure enough, aged 11 on the 1911 census :

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003324048/

His grave marker mentions a sister Martha (Meta) Richardson. Meta Fryday is in Terenure in the 1911 census :

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/page...d__South/51914/

He is in Ireland, Casualties of World War I, 1914-1918 on Ancestry but no extra info.

According to a family tree on Ancestry (based on info from Canadian records) he was born 4th Sep 1893 in Upperchurch, Co Tipp to William Jack Fryday and Elizabeth Ann Preston Wayland Fryday. William died in Thurles 1905; Elizabeth died in Toronto in 1942.

He doesn't appear in the list of dead/wounded in the 1916 Rebellion Handbook but is mentioned in the list of 24 buried in Mount Jerome Cemetery with age shown as 16 1/2 - brought from Mercer's Hospital. Also mentioned in this list of 24 is Private John H Gibbs (age 55), of 58 Belgrave Square Rathmines, an IAVTC member.

Enlisted in Toronto on the 19th July 1915. Apparent age 21yrs 10months. His brother Harry George Fryday enlisted Toronto 24/11/1914 and brother William enlisted 16/7/1915 also in Toronto. Another Fryday from Tipperary enlisted in Winnipeg 14/6/1915 - John Nicholas Fryday son of John Nicholas Fryday. Elizabeth Fryday entered Canada aboard the Montroyal on 9/7/1926. Meta Richardson is still in Dublin on the 1939 electoral roll at 23 Molesworth Street.

Sgt Flood of the 5th Battn RDF was defended during his Court Martial by Henry Hanna KC, a member of 1st (Dublin) Battn, Irish Association Volunteer Training Corps (IAVTC).

Canadians listed among those who defended Trinity College are :

454045 Pte Cassidy, 9th Reserve Canadian Infantry

447766 Bugler Webb, 56th Canadian Infantry

6 South Africans, 1 Australian and 5 New Zealanders mentioned.

The ANZACs and SA chaps were "rounded up" from the recently opened Soldiers Club which had been an initiative of members of the IAVTC.

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Canadawwi

I've photographed a grave in Toronto (Mt. Pleasant Cemetery) with inscriptions for two brothers. The elder brother, Lieut. Wm. J. S. Connor, was killed while serving with the Canadian Field Artillery on July 5, 1916, and the other brother was killed in Ireland "from gunshot wounds inflicted by the Sinn Fein Irish Rebels" on June 15th, 1916. Link to grave photo.

This is the full record for the Lieut. William Joseph Sanderson Connor. Link.

The grave inscription doesn't indicate if the brother, James Connor, killed in Ireland, was there as a civilian or soldier. It seems that he may have been there as a civilian.

Full grave photo.

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Canadawwi

One better possibility was for a soldier named Pte. Neville Nicholas Fryday, 75th Battalion Central Ontario Regiment, who died April 30th, 1916. [[Later note: I didn't read the above posting which mentions this man until after I made this post. The above post has excellent genealogical details for this soldier]].

I found this article which I posted a few years ago to Fryday's Canadian Virtual Memorial record. It also mentions another Canadian soldier killed in Ireland. Attestation for Fryday.

As you can see from his Memorial Record, he is buried in Dublin, Ireland.

- Marika

FRYDAY.jpg

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johnny_doyle

I believe the following obit is for Neville's brother William mentioned in the snippet earlier as being in the same unit (Meta has become Matta)

Toronto Star dated 01-Jan-1980

FRYDAY, William H. (Veteran WWI and life member of the R. C. L. #345) -- At the Providence Villa Hospital on Saturday, December 29, 1979, William Fryday, in his 91st year, beloved husband of Naomi, dear father of Eileen (Mrs. T. Kender?ne) and William, brother of Ruth (Mrs. H. Downton[?]), Maude (Mrs. Campbell) at Hamilton, and the late Jim, Frank, Henry, Edward, Neville, Helen, Lily and Matta. Loving grandfather of Marlene, Duane and Bill. Mr. Fryday is resting at the "Scarborough Chapel" of McDougall & Brown 2900 Kingston Rd. (near St. Clair Ave. E.) after 1 p.m. New Year's Day. Service n the chapel Wednesday 1 p.m. Interment St. Margaret's-in-The-Pine.

RCL - Royal Canadian Legion??

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corisande

Re the Sgt Flood Court Martial, there were in fact 2 Canadian officers shot at the Guiness Brewery that night

Lucas and Worswick

I have a write up on this page

and it is touched on in this forum thread here

Both Canadian officers were 2nd King Edward's Horse. I have never really discovered why they were in Dublin in 1916, and why the appeared to be part of a (unofficial?) guard at the Guinness Brewery. At least unofficial in as much as the RDF guard appear to have had no knowledge. Anyone have nay thoughts?

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johnny_doyle
the other brother was killed in Ireland "from gunshot wounds inflicted by the Sinn Fein Irish Rebels" on June 15th, 1916. Link to grave photo.

here's the 1911 census record for the other brother, James Connor, and family plus another brother.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/page..._Street/912551/

Don't think he's a soldier in 1916; next time I've got a 24hr subscription to the Irish Times archive I'll try and see if there's any mention of his death (not seeing anything using the free search mechanism).

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johnny_doyle
Both Canadian officers were 2nd King Edward's Horse. I have never really discovered why they were in Dublin in 1916, and why the appeared to be part of a (unofficial?) guard at the Guinness Brewery. At least unofficial in as much as the RDF guard appear to have had no knowledge. Anyone have nay thoughts?

The 1916 Rebellion Handbook has some of the court martial records and it would appear that Lucas was brought in by an RDF officer to relieve another RDF officer. The testimony given by Flood and the others seem very strange - it may just be the type of language used at the time by the Irish Times in recording the testimony but it just doesn't sit right.

One Cpl from the 2nd King Edward's Horse killed during the Rising and a number of soldiers wounded. Worswick appears to have fought as a trooper and then commissioned.

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corisande

There is an earlier forum thread on Lucas here

 

it goes into some depth on Lucas' background

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corisande

The school has him down as "Capt" but the Irish reports have him as "Lt" !?

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