Turkish Orders on Gallipoli

[stevenbecker]

Phil,

Without checking the ref to Bean,

If he was recording the 25th April 1915 then it couldn't be a first hand account as Bean wasn't on Anzac at that time. He arrived later in the year.

So the acount must relate to later, to be a first hand account.

S.B

[PhilB]

[centurion]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ May 24 2008, 01:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quote: According to Bean, referring to the Turks on 25/4/15:-

"The Turks are well trained; German methods and orders have certainly been given to the men in the trenches by strangers – possibly in the scrub near the trenches – who give the order in perfect English and manage to get it passed along the trench. I have seen personally, one clear example of this."

There seems to be some difference in the way members interpret this. To me, it means that German officers gave orders in English to Turkish soldiers who passed them on to other Turks who then executed the order. I don`t see it as things being shouted in English to confuse the Aussies. They wouldn`t be concerned about the order being "passed along the trench" if it only needed to be shouted over the parapet?

The reference to strangers and in the scrub near the trnches would suggest an intended 'spoof' order to confuse the Aussies rather than an oficer giving orders to his own side in his own trench.

[Bryn]

I'm finding it hard to comprehend that some pals here haven't 'got' yet that Bean is stating emphatically that these were orders issued intended to deceive the allies. They were NOT orders issued in English for the benefit of Turkish troops.

The following is for anyone who doubts that the Turks knew who they were opposing, or that some of their officers at least had a command of English:

'A peculiar thing happened on the day of the armistice to bury the dead (May 24). Shout [Captain AJ Shout, VC, MC] was in charge of a portion of the business, and he was greeted by name by a Turkish officer. His surprise may well be imagined, the more so when the Turk stated that he had worked in the 1st Brigade bar in Mena!' (Lt. Col. F.L. Kindon, 1st Bn. AIF).

[green_acorn]

Similar stories have been told about, the Crimea, Indian Mutiny (Lucknow), South Africa, WW2 Italy WW2 Pacific and Korea (and doubtless many more). I have yet to see any account that is verifiable or any from the side allegedly shouting the orders that refers to it.

There used to be a very good example of "immitative communication" at the Australian Army's Infantry Centre from the Vietnam War (I heard the five-six minute reel to reel recording in 78). It was a recording of Viet Cong/North Vietnamese Army radio operators talking in Australian accents and idiom trying to get a US air strike to change direction and bomb the "other" side of the smoke grenade. Thankfully their idiom wasn't perfect and the US Forward Air Controller after a period of confusion and acceptance authenticated them to prove they were hostile.

Though rare and mythologised, such acts aren't unknown, even a short phrase that gives a tired infatryman a moment of doubt may be seen as worth the effort by "the enemy".

cheers,

Chris

[centurion]

Chris

I accept that radio spoofs are well documented (British 'spoofers' disrupted German night fighter operations by imitating their controllers in WW2). It's messages shouted into trenches thats the issue

[PhilB]

"The Turks are well trained; German methods and orders have certainly been given to the men in the trenches by strangers – possibly in the scrub near the trenches – who give the order in perfect English and manage to get it passed along the trench. I have seen personally, one clear example of this."

It`s hardly emphatic but I see that it can be interpreted as spoof orders. My first impression was that they were Turkish orders to Turks from Germans. I assumed "men in the trenches" to mean Turkish men.

[centurion]

The more one looks at it Bean's account is odd whichever interpretation one puts on it.

[truthergw]

The more I look at this, the less sense it makes. How does one get a German method passed along the trench by giving orders in English? What, in this context, is a German method? Why do these strangers lurk in the scrub and not stand in the trench with the men? If we assume that there is a German hiding in the scrub giving spoof orders to the English, what does this have to do with the Turks being well trained? How does Bean know that the stranger is German? Why not a Turk?

[PhilB]

The quote is taken from:- http://www.anzacsite.gov.au/1landing/bean.html

Steve - the way I read that, Bean was on Anzac later that day?

[centurion]

The more you look at it the more it seems like gobbldygook. I suspect a possible mis print or transcription error. If it said "The Turks are well trained in German methods and orders have certainly been given to our men in the trenches by strangers – possibly concealed in the scrub near the trenches – who give the order in perfect English and manage to get it passed along the trench. I have seen personally, one clear example of this." It makes a bit more sense but not that much - for example if the men giving the spurious orders were the enemy speaking from a concealed position how could he see a clear example of it?

[Kurt1959]

Hi friends,

back online I would like to help to erase the rumors around orders given in English language in the Turkish army. All records I read said, that the German officers needed interpreters to translate the orders from German into Turkish orders. The original language was Turkish with the old Ottoman spelling. There are still many original orders left - for example given by LTC Mustafa Kemal and other staff officers and commanders and nobody used the English or French nor German language.

At that stage I would like to invite everybody who is available and willing to listen to a lecture in German language on 6 June 2008 to the German-Turkish bookstore in Istanbul - Isteklal Cadessi 18.30. It will be the first presentation of my book, which is unfortunately only available in German language yet. The English translation is on its way but we need to find a English or Australian publisher. The presentation in Germany will be 12 June in Bonn and you are invited as well.

Best regards

Klaus

Gallipoli 1915, 288 pages, 13 coloured foldable maps, 112 black-white pictures and 24 coloured pictures, ISBN 978-3-932385-29-2, 32,-€

[Jeff Pickerd]

Centurion,

"for example if the men giving the spurious orders were the enemy speaking from a concealed position how could he see a clear example of it?"

The answer to that is quite simple, as given by Casey, Charles Bean witnessed the false order being passed by word of mouth, down the Australian trench line.

Bryn, your quote of Lt Col Kindon, referring to the Turkish officer who had worked at the 1st Bn mess at Mena Camp, has made me re-think my point to the Turks being unfamiliar with Kangaroo's, for indeed, there were several Kangaroo's and Wallaby's taken to Egypt as mascots. This Turkish officer would have undoubtedly seen them.

Arising from this, there may be more to L/Cpl Mack's assertion than I first gave credit to.

Jeff

[Jeff Pickerd]

Klaus,

Congratulations and hope your book launch on the 6th June, goes very well.

Please keep us informed as to the English version being released. Look forward with anticipation to reading your book.

Do not forget to have your publishers forward a copy to the Australian War Memorial, and at least, the Australian National Library.

Better still, releasing your book for sale over here.

Cheers,

Jeff

[centurion]

"for example if the men giving the spurious orders were the enemy speaking from a concealed position how could he see a clear example of it?"

The answer to that is quite simple, as given by Casey, Charles Bean witnessed the false order being passed by word of mouth, down the Australian trench line.

No my point still stands - if he didn't see the source how could he know he was witnessing a false order being pased down the trench? Did some one say to him "thats a false order being passed down the trench"! Unlikely. Or did he hear about it afterwards in which case he wasnt an eye witness at all.

[Tunesmith]

I recently found a personal account written in a nurse's keepsake book in December 1915 by a 4^th Btn soldier who landed at Anzac on the 25^th April. He mentions an order to retire, thought to have been given by a German officer.

"Monday the 26^th arrived. We had by this time got a fair good trench dug but still they gave us hell with shrapnel and about 2 o'clock in the afternoon the order came to advance. Well we did and I suppose we advanced another mile and the only Turk I saw was a dead one in a bit of a dug out. Bullets were coming pretty thick and we lost our colonel the same day and men were falling. Well the order to retire came and then they gave us hell. I myself had been struck on the left shoulder with a shrapnel bullet but fortunately for me the brass slide caught it and saved me from a nasty wound. Well I never thought I could run till then. I reckon I made even time & to make matters worse I was making for shelter behind which were several of our fellows, when I accidentally ran a bayonet into my left ankle, the scar which I carry to this day in my eagerness to get behind a bit of cover & to make matters worse they all reckoned it was the work of a German officer who gave the orders so whether there is any truth in the matter I suppose it will be found out in time when the whole bungle will be turned out."

Tunesmith

[centurion]

Thanks Tunesmith

So its a matter of 'thought' but in the general panic of war no one actually knew what happened. I wonder if this was the source of the story.

[Bryn]

The belief that German or Turkish officers were yelling bogus orders intended to deceive the allies crops up in a number of sources in addition to Bean. The Australian and New Zealand troops (and I presume, most others), were taught during training to pass orders along the firing line from man to man. German or Turkish officers, being well aware of this, had - it is stated - issued false orders intended to be heard and taken up by allied soldiers and then passed BY THEM down their own line.

The Turkish officer who had worked in the bar at Mena (Australian infantry encampment in Egypt) was obviously working there as a spy. He understood and spoke English. He knew Captain Shout by name. The Turkish command were certainly aware that they were opposing Australians; if not on the first morning, then as soon as they examined the badges on one of the bodies lying out on Baby 700 or Pine Ridge. Bean (Vol 1 p235) goes into some detail as to what the Turks knew about the force assembling at Mudros and Tenedos in early April 1915.

What day Bean was at Anzac is irrelevant, as in the quote being discussed, it is never stated that he saw this on 25th April. This is an assumption not warranted by anything actually written.

Bean is pretty even-handed on this topic. He debunks the belief held by many at the time that Turkish officers yelled "Don't shoot - Indians in front!" (or similar), or announced themselves as Indians in order to get closer to the Anzac line,. Bean states emphatically that the order not to shoot because the approaching soldiers were Indian was given by Australians, and was not a German / Turkish ruse. See Vol 1 pp xiii-iv, 307-8, 440-441, 470-71, p 495.

'Spy-mania' was rife in the first few days before the opposing lines became established. Exhausted men with strained nerves could and did make mistakes. The CO of the Deal Battalaion, RMLI, for example, was shot and killed by his own men on being mistaken for a spy.

[Bryn]

On further reading, it seems Bean has retracted his earlier belief that what he saw was German or Turkish trickery. The footnote at the bottom of page 495, Vol 1, says it all: "The writer's view is different to that which he previously expressed."

"... along nearly the whole of the firing line a message: "Cease fire. The 29th Division is at the back of the Turks." It could be heard repeated from mouth to mouth, with slightly different versions following closely on its heels: "Order to cease fire; 29th Division is only two miles away." MacLagan's headquarters were in his own firing line. As the message reached it, Major Brand, the brigade-major, who was standing up directing the fire of the ships, called back: "Where does that message come from?" The answer presently returned: "From General Headquarters." Colonel MacLagan ordered the men to go on firing, and requested the signallers to telephone to Divisional Headquarters asking the origin of the order. In the meantime a further variation had arrived along the line: "The French and Indians are just at the back of the Turks. You are to cease fire - order from G.H.Q."

"Just the sort of ruse the Germans would employ," said MacLagan. "Tell them to go on firing." The message was presently disowned and denied by Divisional Headquarters; but in the meantime, for two or three minutes along a mile of front from Bolton's Ridge to Quinn's Post, the Australians had almost ceased to fire. The rumour that the 29th Division was but a few miles distant had gone round two hours before - a delighted infantryman had passed the information to Bridges and his Staff during their luncheon. The men were ready to believe it, and officers like Captain McConaghy, of the 3rd Battalion, who insisted on firing despite the order "Cease fire," heard grumbles of "Firing on your own men!"

It is true that Turkish reinforcements were at about this time moving up near Scrubby Knoll, and everyone* afterwards firmly believed that the order "Cease fire" was a ruse of the Turks. In the light of fuller knowledge it is far more probable that the cry was started by someone in the Australian trenches who saw the line of the 4th Battalion coming northwards through the scrub at right angles to its own trenches. There were actually Turks between the advancing troops and the Australian line. Boase and his party, retiring, came on a few who had lain low hoping to escape from observation.

* The writer's view is different to that which he previously expressed.

These they shot. Such an incident, if noticed from the Australian line, would strengthen the probability that the cry arose there."

(Bean, Story of Anzac Vol 1 pp 495-6).

The passage under discussion was from Bean's original dispatch. In light of later evidence, he has modified his views.