Turkish Orders on Gallipoli

[PhilB]

According to Bean, referring to the Turks on 25/4/15:-

"The Turks are well trained; German methods and orders have certainly been given to the men in the trenches by strangers – possibly in the scrub near the trenches – who give the order in perfect English and manage to get it passed along the trench. I have seen personally, one clear example of this."

Whilst it seems quite possible that English might be used as a common language, it does seem unlikely when German would have been more convenient?

[truthergw]

It does seem strange Phil. The German Army had been involved in training and instruction of the Turkish Army for some years before the war. However, Bean is fairly reliable on facts and figures and I would not choose to disbelieve a direct statement such as this. Perhaps one of our Turkish pals can enlighten us or Bob Lembke, who has interests in the Germans and Turks.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

As far as I am aware the Turkish soldiers and officers had little or no knowage of english.

French was used by most Turkish officers and its more then possible many orders were given in French by German officers to the Turks.

It would seam strange that english would be use by anyone in a Turkish trench, but possible a German officer may have knowage of english to fool the english at some time.

S.B

[infantry]

Some bits and pieces from my side.

Obviusly "French" language was the lingua franca of the Ottoman intelligentsia however "English" language was also fationable. Mostly thanks to the American missionary schools.

Everybody knows about German Military Mission to Ottoman Empire but during the same period there was also a very strong British Naval Mission in the empire (especially after 1904).

[Chris_Baker]

Could Bean be talking about false orders being passed through the scrub from the Turkish side to the Aussies?

[Bryn]

Could Bean be talking about false orders being passed through the scrub from the Turkish side to the Aussies?

Yes. Bean is not saying that the Germans or Turks passed English commands down the Turkish lines, but that cases were recorded where German or Turkish officers yelled false orders in English which were then taken up in the Anzac lines.

[truthergw]

So they were shouting in English with an Oz accent? Fiendishly cunning, eh?

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

Although not on Anzac/Helles I did write about this case at the battle of Amman on the 30th March 1918.

After the NZ Mounted Brigade with the attached 4th Camel Bn took Hill 3039 outside Amman the Turks sent in a number of counter attacks during one of these the front line positions were evacuated by the NZ Troops on the belief that an order had come that they were to withdraw.

The NZ command (see Powles book) blamed the Camel Bn for this order while the 16th Camel Company (also NZ) said it was the NZMB.

Its more then possible the order to retire came from either a Turk or German offcier with some knowage of English?

This order was quickly discovered and the NZ troops did their own counter attack and regained the position.

Cheers

S.B

[bob lembke]

Yes, the issuing of the orders to the ANZACs to sow confusion makes sense, the passing of orders in the Turkish trench in English makes no sense at all. But Bean's use of the phrase of "German methods and orders" was a bit misleading.

I have seen many primany sources from Allies soldiers who were quite surprised as to how many German officers and soldiers knew their language. My father, leaving high school at 18, had good to excellent German, Latin, Classic Greek, English, and French from school; plus conversational Russian that he picked up in many trips to Russia before WW I. (When I was say 18 or 20 my father taught me some Russian so that we could talk at work with little chance of being understood by fellow workers.)

Bob Lembke

[PDW]

I think its all rubbish. I have come across a lot of this in veteran interviews both WWI and WWII. Everybody has a similar story, its part of battalion gossip. Jones was on sentry one night when a Turk popped up and said in English, clear as you like..." but no one I ever interviewed actually heard the enemy shouting orders in English. From the other side I read of a Turk who fought against the Anzacs. Years after the campaign he still believed he had been fighting Greeks. He told a story that he could hear them, with a Greek accent, trying to fool his mates with false orders. Now as far as I know there were no Greeks at Ari Burnu.

My explanation for the phenomenon is that a) it probably does happen extemely rarely and all the other reported cases are frightened soldiers in dangerous places understandably misinterpreting noises that the enemy make.

Peter

[privatesomme]

Hello

Peter,there were greek labours serving in the british army!,and some of them might have picked up a rifle and fought the front line!

Read Hamiltons Diary,You will find the answer in it!

Mike

[centurion]

I think its all rubbish. I'd agree. From the other side I read of a Turk who fought against the Anzacs. Years after the campaign he still believed he had been fighting Greeks.

At one time it was common in remoter corners of the Ottoman empire for the term Greek to be used as a synonym for Infidel and Foreigner and applied to all non Muslims. It would be quite possible for a Turkish soldier originally from a remote village to make no distinction between the enemies he was fighting and just refer to them as the Greeks - the rest could be mere embroidery any accretion as the story got passed around.

[michaeldr]

By coincidence I came across this just the other day in Westlake

The Essex Regiment

1st Battalion

2nd May 1915

"The dead included Commanding Officer Lieutenant-Colonel O. G. Godfrey-Faussett, DSO, ... ... ... According to one officer (Lieutenant R. S. M. Hare) the Colonel had been called by name by one of the enemy and shot as he got up from his dug out."

see pages 159/160

regards

Michael

[Jeff Pickerd]

There are numerous references in letters and diaries to orders in English being passed from the Turks to the Australian lines. The vast majority of these are second hand reports and by nature, probably good old Aussie "furphies", but there must have been some basis to start these stories off. Most commentators put it down to being German officers, and if there is any substance to the stories, that would be the most likely scenario.

With reference to there having been Greek interpreters, this is a well established fact. References to the interpreters can be found in the majority of the A.I.F War Diaries covering the Gallipoli campaign, on line from the AWM.

The diary of R. G. Casey, held by the National Archives of Australia, gives comment on both these issues. This was unearthed by one of the contributors to the Australian Light Horse Association, forum, John Rice. A remarkable find.

German officers passing orders to the Australian lines - Page 8 of the typed transcript, found at page 169 of the NAA digetised copies.

Greek interpreters, Pages 33 & 38, typed transcript. Pages 194 & 199, NAA.

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imagine.as...mp;I=1&SE=1

The other reference that definately establishes the Greek's being employed as interpreters for the Headquarters of the M.E.F. is found in the book by Lt Col Aubrey Herbert, Mons, Anzac and Kut.

http://www.gwpda.org/wwi-www/Mons/mons2.htm

Jeff

[privatesomme]

more question ?

Great post,mate

[stevenbecker]

Jeff,

Its more then probible that the aussie or British troops heard what they believed to be english in the enemy trenches.

I see this like, that soldiers are like parrotts and repeat things they hear or think they heard.

Its known that we use to shout Arab words at the turks so why wouldn't the turks shout english words they heard. Weather they knew the meaning of the words or not.

It can be boring at times and some soldiers like to stir the pot. While others just went to see whos there.

This is all human nature.

S.B

[centurion]

Similar stories have been told about, the Crimea, Indian Mutiny (Lucknow), South Africa, WW2 Italy WW2 Pacific and Korea (and doubtless many more). I have yet to see any account that is verifiable or any from the side allegedly shouting the orders that refers to it.

[Jeff Pickerd]

Steve and Centurion,

I would tend to agree with you both, there is nothing that will definitely confirm of such an incident as ever have taking place. But in saying that, something of this nature may have actually happened, it's just that we will probably never know for sure.

If such an order was shouted out in English from the Turkish lines, and at that, only once, it could be the grounds for the continuation and exaggeration of the incident, or incidents. Over time in the retelling, greatly embellished.

Steve, your points are valid, the stress and boredom of front line trench life, would and did, give rise to all sorts of yarns and furphies. The vast majority of these stories of English being shouted out from the Turks, can in all probability, be discounted as just that, stories.

The only problem is, can we totally discount such an incident as having occurred. It may well have happened.

It's a real quandary!

This particular incident is of the first few weeks of the landing and it is highly unlikely that there were any Turks who would have any knowledge of the English language, let alone, who Australians were. Most Turkish accounts refer to Australians as British or English, and this goes to even beyond the campaign its self. It is probable that there were some German officers who spoke good English, and even possible a few better educated Turkish officers, there were a few English and Australian officers who could speak and read Ottoman.

But the story is not confined to the first few weeks. L/Cpl Ernest Mack No. 66, “A” Troop, “A” Sqdn, 8th Light Horse Regiment, in a letter sent home to his Father, has left an account of the Turkish attack on the 3rd Light Horse Brigade positions, Russell's Top, 29th/30th June, 1915. Here we again have an account of Turks calling out in English: -

“They attacked by getting out of their trenches and trying to charge us with the bayonet. Our men sat

right up on the parapets of our trenches and when not firing were all the time calling out for the Turks

to come along and hooting and barracking them. In fact most of our chaps took the whole attack as a

real joke.

As soon as they stopped the first rush they jumped out of the fire trench and sat up on the parapets and

yelled out cursed at the top of their voices calling out to the Turks to come on they would finish them,

etc. etc.

A dozen Turks towards morning tried to creep round our flank but were at once observed, but instead of

firing our chaps let them come on and then started to chuck off at them and called them all manner of

names for coming so slowly, and it was not until a voice answered them and said, ‘We will soon finish

you Australian hopping Kangaroos’ that one of our chaps then said ‘We can’t stand that, so into them

boys’, which the boys did, with the result those Turks still lie there.”

I have always found this reported calling out in English rather fanciful. The Mack brothers all had a gift of sending home some interesting letters, a little bending of the truth never got in the way of a good yarn. This report is given just over two months since the landing, by this time the Turk and the Australian have come to know a great deal more about each other, and there is now a healthy respect for each others abilities, even a sort of comradery exists between the two.

But here again there is a quandary, could his account be the truth of what actually took place?

It is very difficult to accept that a Turk could know who they actually were, even if he knew that they were Australians, and even more difficult, for him to know what a kangaroo was, and even more so, to associate the two to form an insult.

But again, it's not beyond the realms of probability. The Turkish officers up on Russell's Top during the armistice on the 24th May, knew that Colonel, Dr. Charles Snodgrass Ryan was an Australian. He had served with the Turkish forces as a doctor during the Balkan Wars, 1877 - 1878, and he spoke Ottoman.

Like many aspects of the Gallipoli Campaign, they all add to the "Anzac legend".

Jeff

[michaeldr]

Quote: According to Bean, referring to the Turks on 25/4/15:-

"The Turks are well trained; German methods and orders have certainly been given to the men in the trenches by strangers – possibly in the scrub near the trenches – who give the order in perfect English and manage to get it passed along the trench. I have seen personally, one clear example of this."

If Bean says that "I have seen personally, one clear example of this" then I am prepared to believe him, and Lieutenant R. S. M. Hare

The allies were defeated at Gallipoli by the best Ottoman army of the war. To a degree, it is true to say that the victories of 1918 in Palestine and Iraq were due to the run-down nature of the Ottoman army which had put its best into the field for the Gallipoli campaign of 1915.

The officers were either from the military schools [the Mektebli] or those who had risen from the ranks [the Alaili], however by 1915 the proportion of the latter was rapidly decreasing under the reforms, and in any event they rarely rose above the rank of Lieutenant.

The Mektebli on the other hand had provided for them a system of Preparatory and Secondary schools under the Inspector-General of Military Schools attached to the War Ministry. There then followed the Pancaldi Military School which was the Ottoman equivalent of Sandhurst, training infantry and cavalry officers, or the Artillery and Engineering School at Kumbara-khane. Regarding foreign languages, the cadets were taught French and either German or Russian and ribbons were awarded for proficiency.

Mustafa Kemal was in many ways a good example of the product of this system. Andrew Mango describes him as being from a precariously middle-class home. He spoke French well and also wrote letters in that language (but with some mistakes in his writing). French and German were widely spoken by the middle-class and the newspaper the Ottomanischer Lloyd was printed in both those languages.

On the whole the Ottoman officers at Gallipoli were well educated and it would be very surprising if out of the hundreds of thousands of Turkish soldiers encountered at Gallipoli, none of them spoke any English.

regards

Michael

[PhilB]

Quote: According to Bean, referring to the Turks on 25/4/15:-

"The Turks are well trained; German methods and orders have certainly been given to the men in the trenches by strangers – possibly in the scrub near the trenches – who give the order in perfect English and manage to get it passed along the trench. I have seen personally, one clear example of this."

There seems to be some difference in the way members interpret this. To me, it means that German officers gave orders in English to Turkish soldiers who passed them on to other Turks who then executed the order. I don`t see it as things being shouted in English to confuse the Aussies. They wouldn`t be concerned about the order being "passed along the trench" if it only needed to be shouted over the parapet?

[michaeldr]

An after-thought

The issue of accents is a red-herring;

many in the AIF did not have what today we call an Oz accent.

eg; Simpson would have spoken like a Geordie and there are refs to Capt. E. L. Margoline having a heavy Russian accent

[michaeldr]

Ahhhh Phil,

If you are talking about orders IN the Turkish trenches

then how do you account for Bean's "I have seen personally, one clear example of this"

when he was not in the Turkish trenches

[PhilB]

He could have been close enough to overhear?

[centurion]

Odd that he should say he'd sen one case rather than heard one case!

[michaeldr]

C

I read that as indicating first-hand knowledge

rather than something which he has heard about from others

regards

Michael