michel knockaert Posted 1 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 1 May , 2008 Michel, a mon avis(clavier anglais),je pense que les Britainiques ne connais pas trop l'histoire de ton region et especiallement(brin,c'est dur francais)l'histoire des Portuguese las bas pendant la guerre car il ny a personne qui a fais une vraie histoire on Anglais. Ouais,il y a quelques livres mais rien trops intressant.La Bombe est plus connu pour le monument Indien que pour les Pork & peas. (mes excuses,je ne parle pas pour tout le monde,j'esperre ) David. Hello David, c'est justement parce que rien ou presque rien n'existe en anglais que j'ai lancé ce sujet... j'espère en fait obtenir des réactions de gens qui auraient des documents privés à partager et pourquoi pas celles de Portugais qui visite le Forum. Amicalement Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 1 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 1 May , 2008 Gas attack Michel Bonjour Don't be astonished - only around 10% of the Forum members like to take a broad view of the conflict. The other members research very specific areas of interest to themselves, as is their right. I took some photos in the Lisbon Military Museum and this is one. The PEF was never brought to full strength in France because at that time the USA Army required all the shipping. Harry Bonsoir Harry, Thank you very much for your post. Could you please say to me where the action of the gas attack was and who is the war artist who maked it ? Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 1 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 1 May , 2008 Michael I have done some searching through my books and bound magazine collections with no luck so far. I will continue looking and will post here if I find anything. I have thousands of photo images from the war to look through so something might turn up. Good luck. Justin Hello Justin, thank you very much for your offer, all helps are welcome. Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Blonde Posted 2 May , 2008 Share Posted 2 May , 2008 Hallo Gents, just a thought but to me the Portuguese contribution to WW1 does seem to get very lightly covered and in some cases covered on the negative side. In books, Forums etc..etc.. I feel that it has not been to well researched by post World War 1 writers. Possibly one way to rectify this would be if some of the Portuguese members of the Forum would be willing to share their knowledge of the Portuguese contribution to the Allied cause. A couple of years ago I did discover a web-page written by a Portuguese Gentlemen but it was very bitter towards the British attitude to the service of the Portuguese troops in WW1 (Europe). Perhaps if he had spent a little more time presenting the Portuguese side of the story, instead of referring to how the British ran the Portuguese effort down, maybe today there would have been a clearer understanding of the factual matters. Did the Portuguese break? I think its a matter of record, that they did, but not all of them. Were they poorly equipped and motivated? Possibly so. I too would like to see more of an in depth study about the subject, but, one has to be wary of any attempt (be it local or foreign) attempts to put the subject matter in a more positive light than is factual. Please do not misunderstand what I am attempting to say, I intend no slight on any body's National sense of honour. Connaught Stranger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushfighter Posted 2 May , 2008 Share Posted 2 May , 2008 Coming out of the trenches, France Michel I'm sorry but I didn't take the details of the gas attack sketch. The Portuguese infantry were not treated well by the Allies, rotation out of the trenches does not appear to have been anything like the British routine. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushfighter Posted 2 May , 2008 Share Posted 2 May , 2008 Get that ammunition up to the guns, now! Michel I have not heard any criticism of the Portuguese artillery batteries in France. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushfighter Posted 2 May , 2008 Share Posted 2 May , 2008 An act of gallantry in France Michel In East Africa the Portuguese troops came under criticism from some British & South African senior officers for often failing to hold their ground, but the German commander Lettow von Vorbeck records some hard fights with Portuguese troops. Interestingly the Portuguese officers captured in East Africa would not seek parole by promising not to fight against Germany again, although many British officers gained a release from captivity by promising that. I think that sometimes it was convenient for certain British officers to have Portuguese troops in the vicinity, as then scapegoats could quickly be nominated to explain any British shortcomings. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushfighter Posted 2 May , 2008 Share Posted 2 May , 2008 Detail on the Lisbon Great War Memorial Michel If you can get hold of a copy of "Tip and Run" by Edward Paice then read Chapter 34, as it contains a good description of Portugal and its war effort. I quote:There can be no doubting the magnitude of trauma inflicted on Portugal by the Great War. The nation was already in 'spasm' on the eve of war; by 1918 it was on the verge of total collapse. Some of their allies considered it 'a shame to laugh at the Portuguese', that they were 'doing their best'; . . . Portugal insisted on fighting on the side of the Allies - many other nations did not. Let us honour the Portuguese sacrifice with appropriate humility and sympathy. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 2 May , 2008 Share Posted 2 May , 2008 Portugal insisted on fighting on the side of the Allies - many other nations did not. Let us honour the Portuguese sacrifice with appropriate humility and sympathy. Harry Seconded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesley Posted 2 May , 2008 Share Posted 2 May , 2008 Whilst the subject of Portugal in WW1 is being discussed may I take the opportunity to seek a few answers from people who know rather more than I do? On my list (and he’s quite a long way down so has received very little attention up to now) I have an RFA Officer who was attached to the Portuguese Corps. He died 13.04.1918 and is buried at St Omer so my assumption is that he died in hospital as a result wounds received during the Battle of the Lys. The CWGC gives his secondary regiment as ‘British Military Mission’. Can anyone enlighten me as to what this meant? He is also stated as a recipient of the Order of Aviz. Other than info acquired through general ‘Googling’ I know very little about this decoration and the reasons it was awarded, and would be grateful if any experts out there could point me in the direction of more detailed resources. Apologies for the hijack of thread for personal gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 2 May , 2008 Share Posted 2 May , 2008 The diaries of Capt RCG Dartford, 19th London Regt, attached as liaison officer to the Portuguese can be seen in the Dept of Docs at the IWM. Malcolm Brown drew on this source and some photos in his 'IWM Book of the Western Front'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Blonde Posted 2 May , 2008 Share Posted 2 May , 2008 Whilst the subject of Portugal in WW1 is being discussed may I take the opportunity to seek a few answers from people who know rather more than I do? On my list (and he’s quite a long way down so has received very little attention up to now) I have an RFA Officer who was attached to the Portuguese Corps. He died 13.04.1918 and is buried at St Omer so my assumption is that he died in hospital as a result wounds received during the Battle of the Lys. The CWGC gives his secondary regiment as ‘British Military Mission’. Can anyone enlighten me as to what this meant? He is also stated as a recipient of the Order of Aviz. Other than info acquired through general ‘Googling’ I know very little about this decoration and the reasons it was awarded, and would be grateful if any experts out there could point me in the direction of more detailed resources. Apologies for the hijack of thread for personal gain. Hallo Wesely from:- http://www.jvarnoso.com/orders/orderaviz.html In 1910, the Republic abolished the Orders, but in 1917-18, at the end of the Great War, some of them were re-established as Orders of Merit to reward outstanding services to the state, the office of Grand-Master belonging to the Head of State - the President of the Republic. The Order of Avis was therefore re-established and reorganized in 1918, under the name of Military Order of Avis and reserved for the military with five classes or grades of membership. It was conferred to reward services of a military nature, both on Portuguese army and naval officers and on foreigners. Connaught Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottsGreys Posted 3 May , 2008 Share Posted 3 May , 2008 This memorial postcard is titled Antonio Gouveia Curado, the first Portugese soldier killed in France. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 3 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2008 Hi Michel. As someone who is very new to WW1 study, I must admit that I only learned that Porugal was even in the War a few months ago. Hi ulsssterlad2, I think that this thread we will learn more about the subject, personnaly as I live in the sector where they fougth, I do not know many things about that. Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 3 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2008 Those Portuguese units with British officers did not retreat on 09/04/18 as many all-Portuguese units did, although we should remember that these units were well under establishment for officers - many took home leave (which ORs could not obtain) and never came back to France. Hi Greenwoodman, thank you for your answers. Please what is the meaning of "ORs" ? Friendly Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 3 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2008 Extraordinary sketch of the Gas attack. The Aust. Official Histories may be of interest. http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/histories/6/chapters/13.pdf This volumne has several references to the Portugese as found in the index, but Ch 13 as in the link, is probably of the main interest. Kim Hello Kim, many thanks for the book, it is very interesting as I read many place's names I know very well. Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 3 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2008 The La Bombe Cemetery is well worth a visit, although I have seen it in very different states of repair over the years. It was in beautiful condition when I visited with my school group a few years ago while re-tracing the Lys Offensive. Are we the only British school party ever to visit? Hello Marc, you know even the French schools little visit these cemeteries, it has only begun to be part of the programme of some school's teachers and it very good. friendly Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 3 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2008 My book ('Swansea Pals') has a photo of some Portuguese soldiers as well as a brief account of their arriving in the line. Bernard Hello Bernard, could we expect an excerpt from your book and the photo for those interested ? it will be great amicalement Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 3 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2008 "I found this interesting ..... as I had no idea about it at all ...... I wonder how this matches up to the real story ??" Hello Annie, whatw would we do without you? There is certainly a great part of truth in what is written. Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 3 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2008 Hi Michel, I have a number of books (in Portuguese) and an orbat for the CEP (Corpo Expeditionario Portugues). I was recently at Richebourg on the 7th of April and popped into the cemetery at La Bombe. Neil Hi Neil, did you translate some parts of the books ? Are they maps ? Friendly Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 3 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2008 "Let us honour the Portuguese sacrifice with appropriate humility and sympathy" Harry, that is why I started this thread here and I hope it will soon be a "classic thread", for the general interest. Amicalement Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 3 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2008 "This memorial postcard is titled Antonio Gouveia Curado, the first Portugese soldier killed in France. Chris" Hello Chris, any idea where he is buried and where he was dead ? Friendly Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesley Posted 3 May , 2008 Share Posted 3 May , 2008 Hallo Wesely from:- http://www.jvarnoso.com/orders/orderaviz.html Connaught Stranger Many thanks, but I have that reference, it's about as much as I have been able to find. What I would like to know is if there is a register of the award, and what my man did to recieve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted 3 May , 2008 Share Posted 3 May , 2008 Michel Knockaert asked 'Please what is the meaning of "ORs" ?' ORs is an abbreviation for Other Ranks, i.e. men other than officers. Sometimes it's taken to also exclude NCOs. It's the British equivalent of the US term 'Enlisted Men.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 3 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2008 Michel Knockaert asked 'Please what is the meaning of "ORs" ?' ORs is an abbreviation for Other Ranks, i.e. men other than officers. Sometimes it's taken to also exclude NCOs. It's the British equivalent of the US term 'Enlisted Men.' Good evening Martin, tank you very much for the information. Very friendly Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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