Name in tunic

[JCR]

Kia Ora!

Could it be the officer had a number of jackets for different occassions. This being one of his best, and hence why it appears never to have seen a trench? In relation to the name tag if I wrote my name into any of my uniform and it got washed out I'd just write it in again in the same place...could it be that the tag was written on again after being washed out? How often would you get your best SD tunic washed if you didn't have to wear it too often.

JC

[eparges]

Hi,

I have no info, other than marlene's to connect it to Cedric. the tunic is an early OR's 02 pattern, and as i wrote when I got, 20 years ago, there were no shouldertitles, but as I suggested before the 'Cedric' connection, they would fit a territorial (T/nr/Name) type, due to the holes. I've got a pair of T/28/London now and they fit perfectly...The 28th, the Artist Rifles, were a, as far as I've been able to find out, a battalion composed of artists, etc, so middle to higher class. The tunic has remains of a paper labe, but no acceptance marks, which as far as I've understood is quite common for prewar, early SD's, often private purchased. Cedric joined in 14 as 'simple' soldier.The 28th did no field/trench service in 14,15 but served for officer drafts. Cedric gets transferred to the ASC early 15, (Temp) 2nd Lt and changes thus to officer tunic (see pic). So, he and, if, his tunic, never saw the trenches, which could explain the condition. Marlene just send me a pic, which shows cedric in 14 wearing a 02 SD....

The nametag is written in ink, nicely stitched with small stitchings and 'straight'.

[Grovetown]

the tunic is an early OR's 02 pattern

What makes you say that - are the interior linings at the top of the breast pockets only partial (i.e, in the corners and not a full strip)? Can we see the whole SD, especially the interior?

Cheers,

GT.

[eparges]

What makes you say that - are the interior linings at the top of the breast pockets only partial (i.e, in the corners and not a full strip)? Can we see the whole SD, especially the interior?

Cheers,

GT.

I'll make some pictures over the weekend. The lining near the pockets are not partial, a strip, (I'm familiar with the articles of Joe S and dating of tunics) but it has has some other details which a collector of brit uniforms pointed out differ from 'regular tunics', as he suggested a territioral unit or private purchased one; He could be wrong, so i'd be happy to show the details and have your opinions.

[Marlene]

Hi,

I have no info, other than marlene's to connect it to Cedric. the tunic is an early OR's 02 pattern, and as i wrote when I got, 20 years ago, there were no shouldertitles, but as I suggested before the 'Cedric' connection, they would fit a territorial (T/nr/Name) type, due to the holes. I've got a pair of T/28/London now and they fit perfectly...The 28th, the Artist Rifles, were a, as far as I've been able to find out, a battalion composed of artists, etc, so middle to higher class. The tunic has remains of a paper labe, but no acceptance marks, which as far as I've understood is quite common for prewar, early SD's, often private purchased. Cedric joined in 14 as 'simple' soldier.The 28th did no field/trench service in 14,15 but served for officer drafts. Cedric gets transferred to the ASC early 15, (Temp) 2nd Lt and changes thus to officer tunic (see pic). So, he and, if, his tunic, never saw the trenches, which could explain the condition. Marlene just send me a pic, which shows cedric in 14 wearing a 02 SD....

The nametag is written in ink, nicely stitched with small stitchings and 'straight'.

Kia Ora

Rene if you don't mind perhaps it would be nice to upload the photo and the writing on the back in case someone else had family in the Artists Rifles about Sept 1914?

Sorry I am technologically challenged!

Regards

Marlene

[Grovetown]

I'll make some pictures over the weekend. The lining near the pockets are not partial, a strip, (I'm familiar with the articles of Joe S and dating of tunics) but it has has some other details which a collector of brit uniforms pointed out differ from 'regular tunics', as he suggested a territioral unit or private purchased one; He could be wrong, so i'd be happy to show the details and have your opinions.

Would be interesting. Private purchase is possible, but I'm not aware of territorial variations to infantry service dress. Having rummaged around, it's an incredibly rare surname and so is, in all likelihood, his.

However, if not private purchase, we have a conundrum.

The full-strip interation of SD was sealed in June 1915. His commission in the ASC dates to 24th February 1915. It seems highly unlikely he mooched about in the 28th Londons for another four months after being commissioned, so what's he doing with a June 1915 tunic prior to February?

It could be an officer's funk tunic, but then the 28th London titles wouldn't fit over the ASC holes. Must be private, but let's have a look please.

Cheers,

GT.

[eparges]

H GT,

I agree, that's what had me puzzled too. (datewise). One thing I've never seen on issue tunics, are small, semi-circular reinforments (linnen) near the armpits, underneath the 'pocket-strip'; Furthermore, as said, it bears no gov.arrow etc, serge is quite greenish. For those reasons my pal forwarded the supposition it being a 'territorial-purchased' tunic (helped by the title holes). He informed me, prior to and till early in the war (some) t.bats purchased their own kit (some different web?) and uniforms, so in your opinion this is 'bogus'? will get the pix over the weekend. Interesting though, this tunic was purchased in England (London?) about 30 years ago, which according to Marlene was the time of decease of the last relative. I swapped it with a mate about 20 years ago...

Cheers

rené

[Marlene]

H GT,

I agree, that's what had me puzzled too. (datewise). One thing I've never seen on issue tunics, are small, semi-circular reinforments (linnen) near the armpits, underneath the 'pocket-strip'; Furthermore, as said, it bears no gov.arrow etc, serge is quite greenish. For those reasons my pal forwarded the supposition it being a 'territorial-purchased' tunic (helped by the title holes). He informed me, prior to and till early in the war (some) t.bats purchased their own kit (some different web?) and uniforms, so in your opinion this is 'bogus'? will get the pix over the weekend. Interesting though, this tunic was purchased in England (London?) about 30 years ago, which according to Marlene was the time of decease of the last relative. I swapped it with a mate about 20 years ago...

Cheers

rené

Kia Ora

Melanie Mabel Louise McGorrery died, a widow, on 10 December 1981 - can be verified by all in the London Gazette (online) along with other entries for Capt Henry McG (Cedric's grandfather 1812-93) and his father Henry William McG (1852-1929) .

I have some "evidence" Henry William was in the Coast Brigade but haven't explored that! YET! HW McG was 58 in 1911 census and a Superannuitant so I have discounted him as a possible owner??

The McGorrerys were definitely "flush" enough to purchase uniforms if that was possible!

Marlene

[Grovetown]

H GT,

I agree, that's what had me puzzled too. (datewise). One thing I've never seen on issue tunics, are small, semi-circular reinforments (linnen) near the armpits, underneath the 'pocket-strip'; Furthermore, as said, it bears no gov.arrow etc, serge is quite greenish. For those reasons my pal forwarded the supposition it being a 'territorial-purchased' tunic (helped by the title holes). He informed me, prior to and till early in the war (some) t.bats purchased their own kit (some different web?) and uniforms, so in your opinion this is 'bogus'? will get the pix over the weekend. Interesting though, this tunic was purchased in England (London?) about 30 years ago, which according to Marlene was the time of decease of the last relative. I swapped it with a mate about 20 years ago...

Cheers

rené

René

Don't think bogus comes into it at all (yet). County regimental associations did buy webbing for Territorials, but I have to admit to never having heard of them buying uniforms for seperate supply, nor that they had ones that differed from issue.

That said, it is conceivable that a well-off pre-war territorial may have sourced himself something that was a 'cut above' the usual, provided the unit - CO, RSM, whoever - was satisfied it was sufficiently uniform. I think members of the (allegedly posh) HAC did this.

In the 1901 census, the McGorrerys in question were living in Hitchin, Hertfordshire, which would fit with the 28th London which, I think, had a depot there; although Cedric's father at this seems to be a railway clerk, which doesn't suggest money. Don't have the 1911, so can't say what Cedric or his father were doing later on.

Marlene introduces an elderly relative into it, so it's just possible that we may be talking about a Volunteer Training Corps item. The VTC were responsible for sourcing their own uniforms - and some mimiced Service Dress, and - in 1916 - they were officially supplied with the same SD as the army, but in a slightly different cloth called "Serge, Volunteer Force". There was a crossover over in insigina with old VTC metal titles - e.g V/1/City of London (as opposed to, e.g, T/28/County of London or City of London) - being worn with the new uniforms. Even in his early 60s, it's entirely possible that Henry was associated such a formation, especially with his artillery (Coast Brigade) background.

The Coast Brigades also became TA units of the RGA (?) at some early point, so this could be a pointer too.

Either, sounds interesting - and much like it is the same family either way.

Cheers,

GT.

PS/ I've just realised who you are, and I'm still very pleased with those Boots, Field, Mounted Services I got from you.

[eparges]

Some pix of the tunic, but first a group photo, which shows Cedric (Marlene, please send me a high(er) res bw one...)

Handwritten to back: '28th Bon. London Regiment (Artist Rifles), Transport Section, Sept. 14. Cedric backrow 7th from the left'.

the tunic

[eparges]

Some pix of the lining:

* strips of lining are somewhat 'glossy' linnen

* reinforcement under armpits

* reinforcement to skirt-plits

* handstitched

* (remains of) paperlabel not to left pocket, but on middle skirt

* possibly remains of black ink stamp onto dressing-pocket

[angelab]

Hi Eparges,

Is the guy marked with the red X above not the *6th* from the left, back row?

It looks to me as if "Cedric" would be one farther to the right, if he is 7th from left.

Angela

[eparges]

Hi Angela,

this is the info his relative transferred to me (unless I misinterpreted her indications). Personally, comparing with portrait on page 1 of this post, I'd say its the guy standing in front a bit lower to his right, underneath the corner of the 'brickrow' of the entrance, with the white lanyard...(if you count all 'standing', it's the 7th one..)

[Marlene]

Hi Angela,

this is the info his relative transferred to me (unless I misinterpreted her indications). Personally, comparing with portrait on page 1 of this post, I'd say its the guy standing in front a bit lower to his right, underneath the corner of the 'brickrow' of the entrance, with the white lanyard...(if you count all 'standing', it's the 7th one..)

MY ERROR! Apologies.

Cedric is BACK ROW 7th from Left. Just to the right of the fellow with the object above his head. Directly bellow the left hand edge of the window sill. Teach me to check emails where my brain has run ahead of my typing skills!

Still waiting to receive a higher resolution Rene.

Marlene

[Robert Dale]

1911 Census - family details

MCGORRERY, Henry William Head Married M 58 1853 Railway Clerk Woolwich Kent

MCGORRERY, Ellen Jane Wife Married 19 years F 49 1862 Highgate Middlesex

MCGORRERY, Cedric Marston Son Single M 18 1893 Insurance Clerk Leytonstone Essex

SOLE, Alice Servant Single F 19 1892 General Servant Domestic Helshall Beds

31 the Avenue Hitchin, Hertfordshire

Cedric is an only child. The house is described as having 7 rooms (not counting bathroom, scullery, closet, landing, lobby etc) which suggests reasonable comfort. The area is certainly expensive - in terms of property prices - now.

Robert

[eparges]

MY ERROR! Apologies.

Cedric is BACK ROW 7th from Left. Just to the right of the fellow with the object above his head. Directly bellow the left hand edge of the window sill. Teach me to check emails where my brain has run ahead of my typing skills!

Still waiting to receive a higher resolution Rene.

Marlene

Hi Marlene,

I guess you know your relatives better than me A high res pic might show a bit more detail...(to the right the soldier indicated by you)

[Grovetown]

Hi René

I have no doubt that the tunic is 100% correct, and that you almost certainly have Cedric McGorrery's 28^th London tunic there.

I'd say that, in terms of differences from the standard Pattern, it's really only the armpit and vent reinforcement that are significant – and just perhaps the label location.

Anyhow: I learnt today that the well known tailors Hobson apparently supplied pattern uniforms to the London Territorial battalions (any sign on the label?). While not exactly pattern, I can't see anyone objecting to the extra reinforcement as an embellishment. So it would be private purchase, not by the individual, but by the County Association.

It still seems too early for the type, but items were brought into use before the pattern was sealed and it seems entirely possible that Hobson would have been aware of what was planned. Obviously, this SD must predate March 1915; and must be one of the earliest of this type seen. Well done!

Cheers,

GT.

[eparges]

Thanx GT Nice to know.