British and Australian aircraft, Med Red and Dead

[centurion]

The Navy always took the threat to the Suez Canal seriously and Aenne Rickmers/ Anne and Rabenfels/ Raven II would take time to convert, so evidently they used what was to hand: in this case the Eclipse class cruisers. The Navy did not limit themselves to carriers and the book shows a range of turrets ramps and carrying positions; as well as aircraft on lighters trawlers and drifters.

So seriously that they didn't leave it with any carrier cover along the Palestine coast for about six months - withdrawing all seaplane carriers (Ben-my-Cree, Empress etc) for the Dardenelles campaign. The conversion of the Aenne Rikkmers and the Rabenfels took a matter of a couple of weeks at most, in the case of the latter frame and canvas hangers being installed on the rear deck along with cranes for lifting on and off.They were certainly operational in 1914.

Turrets and ramps were used on cruises and battleships for flying off LANDPLANES usually for anti Zeppelin work. Lighters were used for flying off land planes and transporting the large Felixstowes both for anti Zeppelin work. All of this much later and in other theatres

[per ardua per mare per terram]

As the Dardanelles was the pet project of the First Lord of the Admiralty it was given the resources. That Egypt was a neglected theatre does not mean that the concern stoped. These were ships, if the threat to the Canal had intensified they could have steamed back. The fact is that these three cruisers were fitted to carry the Nieuports between December 1914 and March 1915, and does not exclude the conversion of the carriers. According to Cronin's research HM Ships Anne and Raven II became operational in January 1915. They did not initially come under the command of C-in-C East Indies who had responsibility for the operations carried out by the Eclipse Class ships.

The first photo of a lighter is dated 10 January 1912, which seems to be carrying a floatplane; that is also the date of the first ramp over a turret. Experiments continued from that point on into ways of carring land and sea planes aboard a variety of ships from trawlers to super Dreadnoughts in a wide range of threatres. Given the level of resources available in 1914/ early 1915, the RNAS were wide spread. They had conducted long range bombing on the Western Front (including the Friedrichshafen), conducted the Cuxhaven Raid (another area surprizingly undercovered in the book), were operating in East Africa, the Middle East and preparing for the Dardanelles. Considering how the Admiralty and Navy are critisised for their poor responce to technology, they demonstrated a great grasp of the carrier concept and requirement and also the developments of carrying planes on ships.

[centurion]

The seaplanes from the Foudre came under Army control and not the Navy and were flying from the two converted ships from Dec 1914. The planes, originally under the command of a Lt. de Vaisseau, de l'Escaille was based at Port Said and placed at the disposal of Lt. Gen. Sir John Maxwell, C.-in-C. Egypt, for reconnaissance work over the Turkish areas in Sinai and Palestine

Its worth reading "British Military Intelligence in the Palestine Campaign 1914 -18" by Yigal Sheffy Part ,of the Case Studies in Military Intelligence series

Some worthwhile quotes regarding the two carriers

"The Admiralty prepared to attend to the purely maritime aspects of putting them into operation refused formally to attach the two to the Navy" which is why they came under the Egyptian government and British Military Intelligence.

"This contrived arrangement by which the army found itself in charge of ships actually worked out satisfactorily, for it compensated for the Admiralty's assigning its own men of war esclusively for naval needs, for example with the despatch of most warships from Egyptian waters for the Anatolian coast .... in disregard of Maxwell's requirements for the continuous patrol of Syria in the defence of Egypt."

Sheffy goes into some detail of the recce flights carried out - all from the two converted ships, including recc flights over Beruit. These actually on at least one occasion provided intelligence to the Navy when F O reports indicated a concentration of Turkish troops en rouote to reinforce the Gallipoli defences. Warships were oreded to proceede to Beruit and bombard it. The Navy had to ask the Army to fly a seaplane recce over the city! This proved a total absence of Turkish troops. Had Beruit as an open and undefended city been bombarded it would have been a diplomatic disaster. Aircraft from the two carriers also provided spotting services for naval ships If the N

Navy had its own seaplanes on ships in the theatre this is most odd.

Three seaplanes were lost over enemy territory. Replacements were obtained by commandeering Nieuports being shipped via Egypt to the Dardenelles (presumably for the French carriers there).

In early 1916 the squadron was transfered to the RNAS and the Navy finally took over the ships

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Thank you for reinforcing my comment that these ships "did not initially come under the command of C-in-C East Indies."

HA Jones, War in the Air, V,161

"The area that could be covered by the aeroplanes was limited, but Lieutenant-General Sir John G. Maxwell, the Commander-in-Chief, had also at his disposal seven French seaplanes which, operating from ships off the coast of Sinai, could reach places outside the range of the aeroplanes. These seaplanes—80 horse-power Nieuports—under the command of Lieutenant de Vaisseau de l'Escaille, made many fine flights far inland over the Turkish military area. The pilots were French and the observers British, and their reports, which for fullness and accuracy compare well with any among official records, gave much information of military value. The seaplanes were flown chiefly from the Aenne Rickmers (later called Anne), a former German cargo vessel which had been re-equipped as an aircraft carrier, but they also operated, from time to time, from the Rabenfels, also a former German cargo boat (later called Raven II), and from the light cruiser Doris."

Sir JS Corbett, Naval Operations, II, 74-81 has far more to say about the exploits of Doris, which appear to have included what would later be called commando raids and bombardments. Minerva & Diana are not given the same prominance.

Back to the point of this thread: it would appear that the RNAS did operate Nieuport VIs and Shorts 184s in this theatre.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

AIR 1/271/15/226/119 East Indies and Egypt station - summary and reports of operations carried out by R.N.A.S. seaplane squadron operating from H.M.S. Anne 1917 Feb. 26 - Mar. 1

AIR 1/648/17/122/391 Report of flight seaplane of H.M.S. "Anne" over Royak and Damascus. 1917 Mar.

AIR 1/1708/204/123/72 Operation reports: HMS `Anne' 1916 Sept. - Oct.

AIR 1/1708/204/123/73 Operation reports: HMS `Anne' 1916 Jan. - 1917 Mar.

AIR 1/1711/204/123/89 Administration and personnel establishment HMS `Anne and Raven II' 1915 July - 1916 Feb.

AIR 1/2285/209/75/13 Reconnaissance reports: R.N.A.S. `Raven' and `Anne'. 1915 Jan. - 1916 Mar.

AIR 1/436/15/289/1 Admiralty report on H.M.S. "Raven II" 1916 Apr. - 1917 July

AIR 1/1706/204/123/64 Operation reports: HMS `Raven II' 1916 Apr. - Aug.

AIR 1/1706/204/123/65 Operation reports: HMS `Raven II' 1916 Aug. - Dec.

AIR 1/1707/204/123/67 Operations reorts: HMS ' Raven II' 1917 Mar. - Nov.

AIR 1/2284/209/75/8 Operations in Gulf of Akaba, Red Sea HMS `Raven' II. 1916 July - Aug.

WO 303/483 Akaba TL: T Production: compiled/produced: Prepared from a Series of Aircraft Photographs taken by HMS Raven II. Published by Survey of Egypt under authority from War Office GSGS number: 4017 Aug 1916 (Date Issued)

WO 319/1 Akaba: photographic survey by HMS Raven 1916 Aug

[centurion]

In your earlier posting you also mentioned the other cruisers

"In the Gulf of Akaba, December 1914, the Diana and Minerva also embarked Nieuport Vis, from 9 December 1914, borrowed from the French, they had French pilots and British observers; detail can be found in Cronin, he also mentions Minerva operating a Sopwith 807 in the Gulf of Akaba and the Eastern Med."

Given that there were only 7 Nieuports available in total and given the lack of space available on these cruisers I'm afraid I have to remain sceptical about these reports (including Doris). Doris was involved in bombarding Alexandretta in the period mentioned and having provision for a seaplane on the quarter deck would have made the rear 6 inch gun unuseable. Even if the plane were off loaded prior to opening fire the large boom set up that would be required to lower the plane would have hampered fire.

As far as I can discover the only Sopwith 807 (Folder) seaplanes available in the med theatre were on board Ben My Cree and were sent home on another ship long before this ship arived in Egyptian waters.

[centurion]

I enclose an extract from a German account

Friday, 7.July 1916. A French seaplane carrier ship appeared near Haifa and two seaplanes alighted. One of them fell in the sea, the pilot and observer being saved by the other seaplane, however we pulled the intact airplane ashore and captured the bombs and machine guns and ammunition in it.

Unlikely to have been our old friends the Nieuports (which were unarmed) - anyone have any info what type these could have been?

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The Elipse class at 5,000 tons were the same size as HMS Hermes, which had been adapted for seaplane flying pre war. Given the layout of their guns I find it odd that you think that Doris wouldn't have been able to conduct a bombardment with the aft guns blocked, even if the derrek did so, for which you supply no evidence. She could have fired ahead, or partial broadside and still conducted a viable bombardment. As for what to do with the aircraft, I’m surprised that none of your scenarios included the possibility it might be used for spotting.

As the converted carriers were not operational until 1915 and the Cronin indicates that the cruisers flew them in December, there was probably not a conflict. Even if there was it is clear from the accounts of Doris’ activities that she didn’t permanently carry a seaplane. The first RN carrier to enter the Mediterranean was Ark Royal, no Ben-my Chree; whilst the first 807s in Egyptian waters in WWI were probably aboard SS Persia. The Sopwith 807s listed in Page & Sturtivant Royal Navy Aircraft Serials and Units 1911-1919 as aboard Ark Royal were 807, 808, 922; Doris & Minerva are shown as sharing 922 particularly in the Dardanelles, they do not list every flight of each aircraft particularly before April. They were not the only ships in the Dardanelles to operate spotter aircraft, others included Queen Elizabeth.

Page & Sturtivant also illustrates a “Short S.80 Nile Seaplane at Khartoum, 1914” so that’s another for the list!

If you have a serious interest in the subject I recommend the book and at £12.99 on Amazon it won’t break the bank. The modifications were probably listed in the ship’s book and the flights in the Ship’s Logs.

[centurion]

The Elipse class at 5,000 tons were the same size as HMS Hermes, which had been adapted for seaplane flying pre war. Given the layout of their guns I find it odd that you think that Doris wouldn't have been able to conduct a bombardment with the aft guns blocked, even if the derrek did so, for which you supply no evidence. She could have fired ahead, or partial broadside and still conducted a viable bombardment. As for what to do with the aircraft, I'm surprised that none of your scenarios included the possibility it might be used for spotting.

If you measure up the stern and take into account the size of the aircraft the rear guns could not be traversed whist the air craft was in place - the aircraft would also be damaged by muzzle blast. Looking at the stern of the ship (and I have posted a photo it is difficult to see where either the aircraft of a derrick substantial enough to lower then clear of the ship could be placed where it would not interfere with the guns

If used for spotting one would expect accounts of the bombardment of Alexandretta to mention this - none do.

As the converted carriers were not operational until 1915 and the Cronin indicates that the cruisers flew them in December, The carriers were operational in December and were active from Jan onwards so there is indeed a some conflict. Even if there was it is clear from the accounts of Doris' activities that she didn't permanently carry a seaplane. Are you suggesting that the plane was borrowed from the carriers? Seems unlikely The first RN carrier to enter the Mediterranean was Ark Royal, no Ben-my Chree; whilst the first 807s in Egyptian waters in WWI were probably aboard SS Persia. Weren't these the ones being sent home from Gallipoli? The Sopwith 807s listed in Page & Sturtivant Royal Navy Aircraft Serials and Units 1911-1919 as aboard Ark Royal were 807, 808, 922; Doris & Minerva are shown as sharing 922 particularly in the Dardanelles, they do not list every flight of each aircraft particularly before April. They were not the only ships in the Dardanelles to operate spotter aircraft, others included Queen Elizabeth.

Page & Sturtivant also illustrates a "Short S.80 Nile Seaplane at Khartoum, 1914" so that's another for the list!

If you have a serious interest in the subject I recommend the book and at £12.99 on Amazon it won't break the bank. The modifications were probably listed in the ship's book and the flights in the Ship's Logs.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

As I said there was nothing to stop a partial broadside in which the aft guns would remain unfired. That would not prevent a bombardment could still be carried out firing to the fore or with the foremost guns. As you can see from the plan in 1914 Jane's Fighting Ships.

Weren't these the ones being sent home from Gallipoli?

As the aircraft were in East Africa by February and Gallipoli started in April I don't see how they could be.

If you have a serious interest in the subject I recommend the book. The modifications were probably listed in the ship's book and the flights in the Ship's Logs.