British and Australian aircraft, Med Red and Dead

[centurion]

In the light of a number of recent postings I thought it might be useful to post a list of the aircraft types in service at some time in the Theatre(s) that were encompased by the Southern Med, the Dead Sea and the Red Sea (this does not include Mespot).

I've drawn largely (but not exclusivly) on "The Aeroplanes of the Royal Flying Corps (Military Wing)". I have not distiguised betwen the RFC and RAF unless an aircraft type only flew with the later. This list does not cover training aircraft.

• Aicro Dh 1a - 2 seat fighter/recce -(RFC)
• Airco Dh 2 - 1 seat fighter - (RFC)
• Airco Dh 9 - 2 seat bomber -(RNAS)
• Armstrong Whitworth FK8 (Big Ack) - 2 seat corps recce - (RFC)
• Bristol Scout D - 1 seat scout - (AFC, RFC)
• Bristol Monoplace M1B - 1 seat fighter - (RFC)
• Bristol F2B (Brisfit) - 2 seat fighter - (AFC, RFC)
• Fairy Hamble Baby - 1 seat seaplane scout (RNAS)
• Henri Farman F27 - 2 seat recce (RFC [Aden])
• Handley Page O/400 - 3 seat twin engined bomber - (AFC [1only])
• Martinsyde G100 and G102 (Elephant) - 1 seat long range fighter, recce and bomber - (AFC)
• Nieuport 17 & 23 - 1 seat fighter - (RFC)
• Nieuport 24 - 1 seat fighter - (RFC)
• RAF Be 2c & Be2e - 2 seat recce - (AFC, RFC)
• RAF Be 12 & Be 12a - 1 seat general purpose - (RFC)
• RAF RE8 - 2 seat recc & artillery spotter - (AFC, RFC)
• RAF SE5a - 1 seat fighter - (RFC)
• Sopwith Schnieder - 1 seat floatplane scout (RNAS)
• Sopwith Baby - 1 seat floatplane scout (RNAS)
• SPAD VII -1 seat fighter - (RFC)
• Vickers FB 19 - 1 seat fighter - (RFC)

[per ardua per mare per terram]

To which can be added

• Nieuport 6 (RNAS)
• Short 184 (RNAS)
• Sopwith 807 (RNAS)

From Dick Cronin, Royal Navy Shipboard Aircraft Developments 1912-21

Edited 1 February , 2008 by per ardua per mare per terram

[Dolphin]

Plus the Bristol Scout C, three of which were flown by No 67 (Australian) Sqn RFC/No 1 Sqn AFC.

Gareth

[centurion]

Plus the Bristol Scout C, three of which were flown by No 67 (Australian) Sqn RFC/No 1 Sqn AFC.

Gareth

I was under the impression that these were Scout Ds. Do you have the source of the C?

[Dolphin]

Military Aircraft of Australia 1909-1918 by Wing Commander Keith Isaacs; ISBN 0 642 99374 2, published by the AWM in 1971.

The Bristol Scout C serials mentioned are: 4684, 4686 and 4689.

Bristol Scout Ds used by No 1 Sqn were 5318, 5321, 5322, 5324, 5332, 7032 (Clerget) and A1762.

I hope that this helps.

Gareth

[centurion]

To which can be added

• Nieuport 6 (RNAS)
• Short 184 (RNAS)
• Sopwith 807 (RNAS)

From Dick Cronin, Royal Navy Shipboard Aircraft Developments 1912-21

Can you give more info on the Nieuport 6? I assume that you are refering to the Nieuport monoplane. These were used on Lake Winderemere for training purposes but I can find no reference to any other RNAS use, RFC use of the Nieuport monoplanes was over pre 1914. The Nieuport 16 was ordered by the RNAS but never used all being transfered to the RFC. The RNAS did use Nieuport IIs in the North Med (Galipoli etc)

The Short 184 was used in the North Med. I can find no reference to it being used in the Middle East with the exception of an un substantiated reference to the Red Sea. However no shore station in this region had them and I can only surmise that a sea plane carrier entered these waters at some time. Does anyone have information?

As far as I can discover the Sopwith 807 was only used in the North Med and Africa (sub Saharan)

[centurion]

Trying to establish the types used by the German and Turkish forces.

The following were usedm- there may well have been others

• Albatross C VII – 2 seat recce
• Albatross D V & DVa – 1 seat fighter
• D.W.F C V – 2 seat recce
• Fokker E II & III – 1 seat fighter
• Halberstadt D III & D V – 1 seat fighter
• L.V.G C II – 2 seat recce
• Pfalz A II – 2 seat recce (Turkish in Hejaz)
• Ponnier Aerobatic – 2 seat ex trainer (Turkish 1 only 1915)
• Rumpler C I – 2 seat recce
• Rumpler Doppeldecker – 2 seat recce (Turkish 1 only 1914)

[Dolphin]

Also the Albatros (only one 's') D.III, some of which had the D.V-type rudder of Ostdeutsch Albatros Werke (OAW)-built machines, and the two seat AEG (Allegemeine Elektrizitats Gesellschaft) C.IV.

Cheers

Gareth

[centurion]

Also the Albatros (only one 's') D.III,

Thanks for the AEG (I should have guessed they got everywhere) but don't understand the above comment. Are you saying that the DVs were in fact DIIIs? One photo definitely shows the rounded sides of the DV.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

By north Med do you mean the Aegean? The distinction between northern and southern Mediterranean is largely irrelevant to a ship: Ben-my-Cree served in both the Aegean and off Palestine, Egypt and in the East Indies; the usual distinction was between the West and East Mediterranean on the basis of command structure. Doris embarked a Nieuport VI monoplane of the French Naval Air Service at Port Said on 10 December 1914 to look for Turkish troop concentrations that might threaten the Suez Canal. She continued to operate between the Gulf of Smyrna (north) and off Syria (south), until March 1915 (she later operated in the Dardanelles campaign); with a Nieuport VI, Sopwith 807 and Schneider in turn. In the Gulf of Akaba, December 1914, the Diana and Minerva also embarked Nieuport Vis, from 9 December 1914, borrowed from the French, they had French pilots and British observers; detail can be found in Cronin, he also mentions Minerva operating a Sopwith 807 in the Gulf of Akaba and the Eastern Med. Can anyone compile a list of French planes in theatre?

"I can only surmise that a sea plane carrier entered these waters at some time." A fair surmise given the title of the book I quoted, actually it was several from 1915-1918. The Navy formed the East Indian and Egyptian Seaplane Squadron, which routinely operated the maid of all work the Short 184. One operation was the support given in the Third Battle of Gaza by Shorts of City of Oxford, Empress, Raglan and Raven II. More are detailed in the book.

Additional sources include: various files at Kew (ships logs & Air Historical branch files); CR Samson, Flights and Fights (he was one of the commanders of the EI & ESS), and HV Jones, War in the Air, V including 381-87, 419-23.

Edited 31 January , 2008 by per ardua per mare per terram

[Dolphin]

Are you saying that the DVs were in fact DIIIs? One photo definitely shows the rounded sides of the DV.

No, I was only explaining that there were Albatros D.IIIs in Palestine, and the ones that I've seen in photographs are OAW-built machines, and have the rounded rudder later fitted to the D.V, rather than the rudder with the straight trailing edge fitted to D.IIIs built elsewhere. A picture is worth a thousand words, so I've attached one to show what I mean.

I understand that some Albatros D.Vs were also used over Palestine, but the D.III was more common.

Cheers

Gareth

[domsim]

Additions to list:

Germans

Pfalz E.I

Rumpler C.IV

LVG C.V

Pfalz D.III

Turks

Albatros C.III

Albatros C.I

Deperdussin (50hp)

Nieuport type VII hydroavion

Albatros B.I

Rumpler B.I

LVG B.I

Fokker E.I

Fokker D.I

Fokker D.VII

Gotha LD.2

Albatros D.II

Albatros D.III

Captured aircraft used by Turks

Farman MF.7

Caudron G.3

Bristol Bullet

Voisin (Salmson)

Caudron G.4

Moraine-Saulnier Parasol

Nieuport 17

De Havilland DH.4

Gregorivitch G.5 31

And of course German and Turkish seaplanes

Source: Ottoman aviation 1909-1919 by Ole Nikolajsen & Bulemt Yilmazer, which contains details of numbers, serial numbers etc.

Cheers

Dominic

[centurion]

By north Med do you mean the Aegean?

I was trying to distinguish between operations in the Gallipoli and Macedonean theatres and those in Sinai, Palestine, Syria, the Hejaz and Aden

[centurion]

Dominic Thanks for the list - Are you sure that all of these operated in the in the Sinai, Palestine, Syria, the Hejaz and Aden theatres rather than Black Sea, Aegean (N Med) etc.?

By the by what is meant in your list by a Bristol Bullet - a Bristol Scout or a Bristol monoplane?

[centurion]

Doris embarked a Nieuport VI monoplane of the French Naval Air Service at Port Said on 10 December 1914 to look for Turkish troop concentrations that might threaten the Suez Canal. She continued to operate between the Gulf of Smyrna (north) and off Syria (south), until March 1915 (she later operated in the Dardanelles campaign); with a Nieuport VI, Sopwith 807 and Schneider in turn. In the Gulf of Akaba, December 1914, the Diana and Minerva also embarked Nieuport Vis, from 9 December 1914, borrowed from the French, they had French pilots and British observers; detail can be found in Cronin, he also mentions Minerva operating a Sopwith 807 in the Gulf of Akaba and the Eastern Med. Can anyone compile a list of French planes in theatre?

Do you know where they put these aircraft? Doris and Minerva were 2nd class cruisers with no hangerage or even deck space for aircraft. Minerva escorted a convoy to Port Said before departing for Aqaba where she shelled Turkish working parties. She does not appear to have been working in partnership with Doris.

However I have seen an account that states that 2 French Nieuport VIs were flown from a pair of captured ships operated by the Egyptian Port Authority with French pilots and British observers

The Red Sea Short 184 must have from Ben My Cree as she was a Aden for a while

[per ardua per mare per terram]

I was trying to distinguish between operations in the Gallipoli and Macedonean theatres and those in Sinai, Palestine, Syria, the Hejaz and Aden

Ok that's clearer. North Med could also include the operations in Italy.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Do you know where they put these aircraft? Doris and Minerva were 2nd class cruisers with no hangerage or even deck space for aircraft. Minerva escorted a convoy to Port Said before departing for Aqaba where she shelled Turkish working parties. She does not appear to have been working in partnership with Doris.

However I have seen an account that states that 2 French Nieuport VIs were flown from a pair of captured ships operated by the Egyptian Port Authority with French pilots and British observers

The Red Sea Short 184 must have from Ben My Cree as she was a Aden for a while

Doris, Diana and Minerva were all sister ships, if one had the room then they all did. Some of the pics show Doris with a derrick aft for lifting the sea planes and the plane being lowered onto the quarterdeck. No hanger seems to have been erected; it looks like it is being lowered onto a cradle. This was the same navy that bought a collier on the stocks, completely redesigned it, had it rebuilt, launched, commissioned her as Ark Royal in 6 months, just carrying a seaplane was hardly beyond their wits. I refer you to my post: Doris operated seperately from Diana and Minerva.

I have only mentioned the earliest use of the Nieuport VIs, they continued to be operate from other ships including HM Ships Anne, Raven II and RIMS Hardinge

Aircraft mentioned in the chapter covering 3rd Gaza:

Short 184s 8019, N1262, N1090 N1263, 8022, N1091, + N1639 is illustrated

Fairy Hamble Babies N1209, N1210 (missed those earlier)

Sopwith Babies N1129, N1038, N1036, N11429, N1128

Schneider N1129

"Soon afterwards Raven II paid off after nearly three years service as a seaplane carrier, during which time her seaplanes had flown over the coastlines of Asia Minor, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, the Hejaz, the Yemen, and accross the Indian Ocean and Arabian Sea to Colombo." Cronin, 261.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

French serial numbers of the Nieuport VIs mentioned in Cronin's book: N11, N14, N15, N16, N17, N18, N19, N20, N21, N22, N23, NB1 and NB2. I am not going to check whether they all were limited to the theatre deliniated by this thread.

[centurion]

Doris, Diana and Minerva were all sister ships, if one had the room then they all did. Some of the pics show Doris with a derrick aft for lifting the sea planes and the plane being lowered onto the quarter deck. No hanger seems to have been erected; it looks like it is being lowered onto a cradle. This was the same navy that bought a collier on the stocks, completely redesigned it, had it rebuilt, launched, commissioned her as Ark Royal in 6 months, just carrying a seaplane was hardly beyond their wits. . I don't see the relevance to my question of where was the aircarft stored. Is it posible to see one of those photos?

[per ardua per mare per terram]

It is hard to make out your embedded comment here and so decide what you are asking and querying. The Navy possessed the skills to facilitate the carrying of aircraft, even if the ships hadn't been designed for the task. In my post I mentioned that the plane was lowered onto the quartedeck and in another photo it is described as "on the quartedeck;" that would seem to indicated they were stored on the quarterdeck, at the time of the photos in 1915, identified as "in the Gulf of Smyrna" and Suez Canal respectively. The photos are copyright the GS Leslie/ JM Bruce collection.

[stevenbecker]

Mates.

Since you blokes of have gotten all the air craft down pat, I wonder if you have any idea of the German aircraft that bombed El Shauta on the 5th June 1917 and hit the Camel Bde lines pay particular attention to the 3rd Camel Bn with one dead two DoW and 19 WIA.

I can't find any references to this other then ICC reports.

Cheers

S.B

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Does anyone have a list of what other planes the French were flying in this theatre?

[centurion]

It is hard to make out your embedded comment here and so decide what you are asking and querying. The Navy possessed the skills to facilitate the carrying of aircraft, even if the ships hadn't been designed for the task. In my post I mentioned that the plane was lowered onto the quartedeck and in another photo it is described as "on the quartedeck;" that would seem to indicated they were stored on the quarterdeck, at the time of the photos in 1915, identified as "in the Gulf of Smyrna" and Suez Canal respectively. The photos are copyright the GS Leslie/ JM Bruce collection.

Photos of Nieuport seaplanes being lowered onto water indicate that they did not have folding wings and it was necessary to hoist them out on a long boom to avoid fouling the side. Whilst I am of course very well aware of the RN's capacity for improvisation I am interested to see how this could be achieved from the very cramped area of HMS Doris's quarterdeck (see photo) without significant modifications to the ship. Carrying the aircraft on the quarter deck could only be done for a short distance and/or in fine weather as any sort of wind or sea could well damage the plane.

[centurion]

Does anyone have a list of what other planes the French were flying in this theatre?

In 1914 the French seaplane carrier Foudre was briefly at Port Said to provide recce cover for the Palestine and Syrian coast. She carried mainly Nieuport VI seaplanes (and possibly also some Breguet and Voisins). There is no record that any were deployed. However in Nov of that year she left as part of the build up for the Dardanelles. She did off load six or seven Nieuport seaplanes on to barges. However there was no RN ship suitable to act as a carrier. Instead two captured German ships the Aenne Rikmers and the Rabenfels (latter the Annie and the Raven II) were converted by the Ports and Lights Dept of the Egyptian government into ad hoc carriers and the Nieuports divided between them. Operational command was assigned to the British Military Intelligence Dept, Percival Elgood and G B Waldon being in command. Thus the British Army was operating two seaplane carriers!

The RFC had no seaplane pilots and so French pilots were retained but the observers were British. One such observer was Horace Ledger a 2nd Lt in the Indian Army Officer Reserve in Egypt who died whilst still part of the squadron in Dec 1915. To confuse matters yet further the Squadron was frequently referred to as "The French Seaplane Sqn"

Operational flights were carried out over Beersheba and spotted the Turkish build up and advance on the Canal. In March 1915 the Aenne Rikmers with three aircraft was detached to the Coast of Smyrna where she was torpedoed but managed to make it to Mudros for repairs before eventually returning to Port Said. Rabenfels continued to fly two Nieuports off the coast of Palestine.

The Nieuports from the Foudre appear to have been the only French aircraft in theatre. This is why I was puzzled by the accounts of them being operated off the Artimis class cruisers that seem singularly unsuited for the purpose and wished more details and/or photos.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

I thoroughly recommend the book which gives details of these operations and others; although there is surprisingly little about the Dardanelles campaign. It’s currently available on Abebooks and Amazon and probably through the inter library lending service.

The Navy always took the threat to the Suez Canal seriously and Aenne Rickmers/ Anne and Rabenfels/ Raven II would take time to convert, so evidently they used what was to hand: in this case the Eclipse class cruisers. The Navy did not limit themselves to carriers and the book shows a range of turrets ramps and carrying positions; as well as aircraft on lighters trawlers and drifters.