Cosham, Hampshire

[Dragon]

Does anyone live in Cosham, Hampshire and could answer a little question for us, please?

It concerns the exact location of the drill hall which has been suggested as being on Albert Road's junction with Pervin road, but we can't confirm this with Google maps. The premises there look like houses. The building at the junction with Aldroke Street looks more likely to be / have been a drill hall.

I'm not asking anyone to make a special trip, but if someone local knows the answer it would clear up a puzzle.

Many thanks

Gwyn

[keithmroberts]

I live in Portsmouth and will take a look tomorrow. I only recall the area as residential, although there is a more substantial block that I think has been converted into flats for the elderly. I am unlikely to have a chance to get into the main library to check out old directories for some time, but I have a pal who might be able to.

Keith

[Dragon]

That would be really helpful, Keith; thank you.

From Kelly's Directory, 1911, on Cosham, we have ‘Wessex (Hampshire) Royal Garrison Artillery; headquarters, Ammunition Column, Drill hall' and another source suggests Albert Road. Any extra information would be really useful.

Many thanks

Gwyn

[keithmroberts]

I will take a look this afternoon. A little googling found this pic, which you should hopefully be able to relate to the google maps. I Couldn't definitely identify a likely building. Its easiest to start from the location of the cinema, now a bingo hall to work out the position. I'll take the camera when I go, and if not resolved, will one day be able to look at larger scale maps in the library. I did find a reference to the drill hall being adjacent to Pervin Road on another site.

Keith

[keithmroberts]

Gwyn

I took a look around and a few photos. The north side of Albert Road is made up of properties which look as if they were built quite early in the last century, in line with many of Portsmouth's terraced properties. At the extreme end of the road is a large building dated 1935 with significant land. This was built as a masonic lodge and I have no clue as to what preceded it.

On the south side as you move from the High Street there is a large building, currently a nursing home, which my ex, who grew up in Cosham remembers as a dairy. It might have had a previous use of course. Then there are two fairly modern residential developments, one definitely from the late sixties at the very earliest, and the second cluster of properties, directly opposite Pervin Road probably less than 10 years old, before some older terraces that continue to the end of the road.

I looked briefly in the Cosham library, and some of that redeveloped area included the Albert Road School which was identified in a monograph on the area written in 1908 or thereabouts.

If you pm me I can send you some pics, but to get any more detailed information some digging at the central library would be needed. I don't actually get into the centre of town very often, if you knew it you would appreciate why, but will keep this one in mind for my next visit.

Keith

[Dragon]

Thank you very much, Keith. I have sent a PM.

Gwyn

[Medic7922]

I was born & raised in Cosham from the mid 50s until the 70s and know Albert road & Pervin road very well, I have never seen any sign of a Drill hall in that area,

the only Drill hall that are still inexsitance in Cosham is at Tudor Crescent but this I believe is a post World War 2 TA drill hall.

The other Drill hall is on Peronne Road behind the Hilsea redoubt which is part of the old military ordnance site and part of the Palmerstons follies, The other now closed Drill hall is on the corner of Stanhope & Willis Roads close to the city centre.

Just got off the telephone from my twin brother, He was a TA soldier & Traffic warden in Cosham so know the area better then me, He confirms that the old Drill Hall in Albert road is now the Masonic Hall, I hope that is of help.

[Dragon]

It is indeed; thank you very much, and to your brother too.

We're also very grateful to Keith for his photos which have safely arrived. (I'll respond by email tomorrow.)

Is the DH on Stanhope Road the one which is decribed in Kelly's Directories, 1911, as ‘6th Battalion Hampshire Regiment; head quarters, A, B, C & D Companies, Connaught hall, Stanhope road, Landport’ ? And referred to in The Times, June 1899, (extract): '...The foundation-stone of the new Volunteer drill-hall was laid on Saturday afternoon by Col. A. F. Perkins, a former commanding officer of the battalion.' Opened in 1901. (We have extensive extracts but I'll save them for the website!) Described in 'Hampshire Treasures' as 'Very wide gabled roof. Brick battlemented facade with two rows of windows with glazing bars. Wide doorway with imitation stone lintel. To the south two battlemented chimneys. To the south-west corner, a battlemented round turret with imitation arrow slit.' I assumed this was Stanhope Road; am I right?

As it was Listed in 2001, what's happening to it if it has closed? Would it be possible to have a photo sometime, please (especially if it's doomed for demolition)?

I found Portsmouth very puzzling. Are / were there two Connaught Halls? One in Alfred Road and one in Stanhope Street?

It's really good to have have input from people who know the area. Many thanks indeed.

Gwyn

[Medic7922]

It is indeed; thank you very much, and to your brother too.

We're also very grateful to Keith for his photos which have safely arrived. (I'll respond by email tomorrow.)

Is the DH on Stanhope Road the one which is decribed in Kelly's Directories, 1911, as ‘6th Battalion Hampshire Regiment; head quarters, A, B, C & D Companies, Connaught hall, Stanhope road, Landport’ ? And referred to in The Times, June 1899, (extract): '...The foundation-stone of the new Volunteer drill-hall was laid on Saturday afternoon by Col. A. F. Perkins, a former commanding officer of the battalion.' Opened in 1901. (We have extensive extracts but I'll save them for the website!) Described in 'Hampshire Treasures' as 'Very wide gabled roof. Brick battlemented facade with two rows of windows with glazing bars. Wide doorway with imitation stone lintel. To the south two battlemented chimneys. To the south-west corner, a battlemented round turret with imitation arrow slit.' I assumed this was Stanhope Road; am I right?

As it was Listed in 2001, what's happening to it if it has closed? Would it be possible to have a photo sometime, please (especially if it's doomed for demolition)?

I found Portsmouth very puzzling. Are / were there two Connaught Halls? One in Alfred Road and one in Stanhope Street?

It's really good to have have input from people who know the area. Many thanks indeed.

Gwyn

The description of the old connaught hall in Stanhope road is first rate, I have always known of the DH being called the connaught hall and have been inside on a number of occasions as I was also an ex TA soldier in Portsmouth.

I am not aware it is due for demolition as I thought it was a protected building and believe it is now being used as a night club ( I feel another telephone call coming on) as I still have my family in Pompey who may be able to confirm.

[Steven Broomfield]

That would be really helpful, Keith; thank you.

From Kelly's Directory, 1911, on Cosham, we have ‘Wessex (Hampshire) Royal Garrison Artillery; headquarters, Ammunition Column, Drill hall' and another source suggests Albert Road. Any extra information would be really useful.

Many thanks

Gwyn

I don't know Pompey that well, but in the History of the Hampshire Territorial Force Association and War Records of Units, 1914-19 there is a description of the Hampshire RGA, the Hants yeo and the 3rd Wessex RFA all having a station at "Governor's Green", with the 1st Wessex Bde, RFA, at St Paul's Road, Portsmouth

[keithmroberts]

The Connaught Hall is now a night club. My son joined the TA there about ten years ago. It looks as if the original building on Albert Road must have been demolished and replaced as the Masonic Hall is dated 1935 according to a stone above the entrance.

I found a WW! memoir stating that the drill hall in WW! was close to Pervin Road which is at the other end of Albert Road. I am intrigued now and will try to get down to the reference library next weekend.

These shots show the masonic hall. My ex who grew up in the area had a vague recollection of the TA being at the end of the road which fits with the evidence from medic's brother.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y133/bof/IMG_0014.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y133/bof/IMG_0015.jpg

I emailed one of the local history buffs, but his research was confined to portsea Island itself while Cosham is on the mainland.

Keith

[keithmroberts]

I have just looked up the other two locations mentioned. Governor's Green is in Old Portsmouth close to the docks- and St Paul's Road is also quite central. Neither relate to Cosham. The city was full of naval and military buildings - my older son went to school in a former barracks once occupied by the Royal Marines Light Infantry.

[Polar Bear]

my older son went to school in a former barracks once occupied by the Royal Marines Light Infantry.

Would that be Portsmouth Grammar School. If so I didnt know it was formerly RMLI. (I went to PGS). Iof course knew it was mainly a former barracks, though I had thought Army.

As to the actual topic of the post, Portsmouth was not just a Naval City, it had strong Army links too.

Governors Green by my understanding was linked to the (now bombed) church next to it, which was the Garrison Church (can't recall its name). As I understand these things Governors Green and the Garrison Church was the historical centre of the Army presence, but by the beginning of the 20th Century the Army had slowly dispersed northwards on (and off) the Island. To places like Cosham.

[keithmroberts]

PGS it was. I found the reference to the RMLI while surfing earlier today. I understand that it did house a number of other army units at various times.

[keithmroberts]

Below is a brief extract from the website of a local Historian Stephen Pomeroy

Cambridge Barracks

1825 Timberyard and workshops converted into barracks 89

Occupied by 9th Fusiliers 51

1848 Royal Marine Light Infantry moved to Forton 9

1856 Rebuilt and named in honour of Duke 89

1869 Built 181

1881 171

1898 1

1927 Sold to Portsmouth Grammar School 181

See Schools

He quotes the Portsmouth Evening News as his source for the move in 1848.

Keith

[Medic7922]

Would that be Portsmouth Grammar School. If so I didnt know it was formerly RMLI. (I went to PGS). Iof course knew it was mainly a former barracks, though I had thought Army.

As to the actual topic of the post, Portsmouth was not just a Naval City, it had strong Army links too.

Governors Green by my understanding was linked to the (now bombed) church next to it, which was the Garrison Church (can't recall its name). As I understand these things Governors Green and the Garrison Church was the historical centre of the Army presence, but by the beginning of the 20th Century the Army had slowly dispersed northwards on (and off) the Island. To places like Cosham.

Here is the link about the old Garrison Church, http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server/...chosenImageId/4

[Dragon]

I’m afraid I’m very confused about Portsmouth. It’s an area which I don’t know at all and all the data was gathered by Graeme, not me.

Cosham:

At the moment, I don’t know the provenance of the Masonic Hall on Albert Road. It isn’t unthinkable that the Masons, valuing quality materials and craftsmanship, might not have completely demolished a former drill hall but adapted and altered it, retaining some of the shell while to all intents and purposes creating new premises.

I’m happy to accept Medic’s brother’s recollection pending documentary proof.

As for the other memoir, which came up in a search for me too, all I can say with certainty is that if it were exactly where he says it was, it isn’t now.

Connaught Hall

Were there two of these? We have two references in Kelly’s Directories, (1) the Connaught Drill Hall, Alfred road mentioned in 1899; (2) Connaught Hall in Stanhope street, Landport mentioned in 1911.

Connaught Drill Hall, Alfred Road: ‘The Drill Hall, Alfred road, is a fine structure of red brick with stone dressings, ... and is estimated to hold 11,000 people; the hall is primarily intended for the use of the 3rd Volunteer Battalion (Duke of Connaught’s Own), Hampshire Regiment, but is also let for meetings and entertainments.’

Connaught Drill Hall, Stanhope street: many references, eg ‘6th Battalion Hampshire Regiment; head quarters, A, B, C & D Companies, Connaught hall, Stanhope road, Landport.’

My reading of the data on Stanhope Street is that the Admiralty acquired the original Drill Hall of the 3rd Vol. Batt. Hampshire regiment because it was in an area where new naval barracks were to be built. They provided a new site for a replacement Drill Hall and its foundation stone was laid in June, 1899. The Times reported its opening in 1901: ‘In the absence of the Duke of Connaught ...Lord Northbrook ... opened a large and handsome drill-hall at Portsmouth which has been erected for the 3rd V.B. (Duke of Connaught’s Own) Hampshire Regt. by the Admiralty, who have included the original drill-hall of the battalion in the area enclosed for the new naval barracks.’

So, was the original DH the one on Alfred Road and the replacement Drill Hall the Connaught Hall on Stanhope Street? If so, I am assuming that Alfred Road DH may possibly have gone. It sounds a loss, if so. But this needs confirming.

Re Connaught Hall ‘demolition’: I am happy to be mistaken. I misread Medic’s comment that it is ‘now closed’ as meaning that it was closed permanently pending decisions about its future.

Re Governor’s Green

Kelly, 1898 mentions a drill hall at the junction of Penny street and Pembroke road. Kelly, 1911, refers to ‘Hampshire Royal Garrison Artillery; No. 4 Co.’ which we know had a drill hall at Governor's Green, which was demolished sometime around WW2. It’s shown on the 1933 map.

I read this as meaning that the Penny street DH and the Governor’s Green DH are the same place. Am I right?

St Paul's road:

‘1st Wessex Brigade Royal Field Artillery; headquarters, 1st and 2nd Hampshire Batteries & 1st Wessex Ammunition Column, St. Paul’s road, Southsea.’ (Kelly, 1911)

I see from Google maps that Peronne Road, Governor’s Green and St Paul’s road are unconnected, so I infer that this means three premises – potentially three drill halls. Medic says that one on Peronne Road is still there. The DH Kelly mentions at Penny street / Pembroke road has been demolished. At the moment I don’t know what if anything is / was at St Paul’s Road.

I’m sorry to sound so dense, but I’m really struggling with an unfamiliar area and editing confusing references. (There are many more, to other locations in Portsmouth and its environs. As Keith says, the town has many military buildings.) I’m anxious that what we have on the website is as accurate as possible.

I am really grateful for your information and help.

Gwyn

[keithmroberts]

Gwyn

I have just taken a quick trip down to Alfred Road, and as presently defined it runs between the Portsmouth Roman Catholic Cathedral, and the rear of HMS Nelson which is part of the Naval base. It seems pretty likely that the street name may have been migrated during redevelopments in the central area in the sixties and later. I will send you some pics of the Connaught Drill Hall. It was just as big as I remembered it. I feel sure that it has always been the only central drill hall of that name, although there was/is one in nearby Gosport.

Central library next weekend all being well to find older maps to confirm the WWI layout in Cosham, whatever it was. I feel that there is more to learn about the drill hall before the 1935 building and will try to unravel it.

Keith

[Dragon]

Thank you very much, Keith. These mini investigations into premises are challenging and usually rewarding once unravelled, which is part of the appeal for me.

I own an archive photo of Gosport and I'll put it on the website, though if someone would like a copy first you're welcome. (We've nearly finished coding up Hampshire, which is massive. 46 Drill Halls and 68 Drill Stations.) Was Gosport also called the Connaught [Drill] Hall? No wonder I'm getting perplexed.

Cheers

Gwyn

[keithmroberts]

Indeed it apparently was. Google produces a few references, and apparently it may have served as a military hospital in 14-18 if a post on this thread is correct: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...c=187&st=40

Keith

[Dragon]

Having done some more investigations, I came across the online version of 'The Portsmouth Encyclopaedia: A History of Places and People in Portsmouth', by Alan King, Historical Collections Librarian, Portsmouth City Libraries, published online 2006. This is a wonderful collection of detailed listings with map references. It includes numerous military buildings and notes the maps on which they are found.

This source states that the 1895 maps show Albert Road running east from High Street, Cosham. On the south side, going from west to east, the drill hall and then the infant school are shown. On the North side is Deans Road.

Using the online old maps, the 1911 OS map shows a school on the south side of Albert Road just before you get to Pervin Road travelling east. I'm assuming this was the infant school. I think a large scale map would probably contain the answer. Despite protests, permission to demolish the school was granted in 1996 and six houses built on its site; has the drill hall gone?

Many thanks to those people who have made comments here; they are all very helpful indeed.

Gwyn

[keithmroberts]

I can update this thread to some extent.

Cosham

There have been two drill halls on Albert Road. The original is shown on the 1897 OS directly opposite the alleyway that is now Pervin Road. At that time the school site beyond it in the road was very small. The Masonic Building at the end of the road that was built in 1935, was subsequently used by the TA for a number of years, well into recent memory.

Portsmouth.

The Connaught Drill Hall is now a listed building as well as a night club, and was always described in relation to Stanhope Road. There was a drill hall within the naval barracks within the navy base in a building backing onto Alfred Road, now part of HMS Nelson. The Drill Hall on Governor's Green was immediately behind the "Great Redoubt" and today there is no trace of it at all.

The St Paul's Road Drill Hall is now the University sports centre, and only a few yards away on Hampshire Terrace was the Drill Hall of the Hants R.E. also now used by Portsmouth University.

There was also a drill hall in the Royal Marines barracks at Eastney.

I am still exploring the possibility of other regular army drill halls at Hilsea, (now a housing development), or in the complex that included Cambridge Barracks, (partly now Portsmouth Grammar school).

I have forwarded such photographs as I have been able to take to Gwyn for the database, and am still hoping to find some photographic record of the demolished halls.

In Gosport the Connaught Drill Hall was demolished in 1971, and is now the site of the library. There were two other drill halls listed in Gosport, and I will follow these up as soon as possible.

Keith

[Dragon]

Keith has sent a wonderful collection of material. We're really grateful for his help and the time he's spent on behalf of the project, unravelling some of these puzzles. Thank you, Keith.

Gwyn

[Medic7922]

I am still exploring the possibility of other regular army drill halls at Hilsea, (now a housing development)

,

Am I right in thinking that the old Army Camp was in the area of Norway & Copnor Road and the old Hilsea Halt railway station was built to serve the camp.

I can remember an Army Barrack along the Copnor road and I believe it was a Royal Army Ordnance Corps Depot, also I believe that this is where Field Marshal

Montgomery also commanded as base commandant prior to WW2.

[keithmroberts]

medic

I think most of the land between Copnor Road and the London Road was military. The estate built on the Hilsea barracks is called Gatcombe Park, although originally to judge by the maps that name related to a smaller part of the site. The on line index to the Museum and Archive centre, which of course was a part of another barracks complex, also refers to a picture as below

Photograph of the 2nd Hants Battery, Royal Field Artillery, Hilsea Drill Field, Portsmouth

So I am not sure whether the army occupied land all the way down to Norway Road, although its more than likely. On the south side apparently Rugby Camp was also on military land originally. In fact, it seems as if a very great part of the city was occupied by the forces.