223rd Bn Scandinavian Canadians & 197th Vikings of

[Borden Battery]

I have a printed photo album taken of the various battalions that trained at Camp Hughes [former Sewell and separate and distinct from Camp Shilo]. I believe the Icelandic Battalion is included in these photographs.

Will look for some material over the weekend and advise.

Camp Hughes was a very interesting place. The training trenches still exist.

Regards

Dwight Mercer

PS Except for my Grandfather who was born in England, his wife and most of my relations are Icelandic.

[Broznitsky]

the nominal rolls for the 197th and 223rd Battalions C.E.F.

The 197th roll is dated 26 Jan. 1917, Port: Halifax, N.S.

The 223rd roll is dated 3 May 1917. Port: Halifax, N.S.

Just as a reminder, these nominal rolls are the embarkation lists, showing the officers and ORs in the battalion on or nearly about the date mentioned.

A previous thread discussed the absence of a "master" nominal roll for any battalion in the CEF that would show all men from Day 1 until final breakup.

The challenge for us reseachers is to assemble the magical "master" roll!!

Peter in Vancouver

[Borden Battery]

Hello Peter

Excuse this simple question, however, how does one find/prepare a nominal role for a particular unit? I am quite busy transcribing a series of war diaries - who might be doing the nominal roll for say the 1st Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade?

Regards

- Dwight

[chris.wight]

Hi Dwight,

The National Archives hold a variety of Nominal Rolls for embarkation - unfortunately the list is incomplete, and of course they don't reflect all the changes which happened during the war.

You can buy them here, link. They have a list for the No. 1 Auto-Machine Gun Brigade, and also 1st Machine Gun Draft from M.D. No. 6. I don't know if they made copies of all the Nominal Rolls extant.

[Broznitsky]

how does one find/prepare a nominal role for a particular unit?

Ideally, as Charles Fair presumed a year ago, if you had the Battalion's Part 1 Daily Orders complete from day 1 until demob, you could reconstruct a list of every officer and OR who served with the battalion. These detail all men Taken on Strength, Struck off Strength, promotions, discipline, etc. Unfortunately, the ones I have seen didn't detail casualties, and for my research, a month and a year were frustratingly missing!

So, you would also need every nominal roll from various points in time, embarkation list, casualty lists, medal/MID lists, training lists, Honour Rolls, postoffice lists, etc. And the mythical Roll Call lists would be wonderful.

Now, do all these documents still exist, in a complete form? Probably not. Nobody on this Forum has ever trumpeted being able to compile a complete nominal roll for a battalion, detailing every man who had ever served. Considering that some battalions probably saw 4/5/6 thousand men serve, for varying periods of days, weeks, months, or years, the likelihood of a complete listing is likely impossible.

But it is sure fun trying!!

[mordac]

Hi All:

Chris: I think the lists on the site you linked are embarkation list. I've purchased a couple of lists from this reputable company via e-mail. Each time I ordered a list, I was asked if I was looking for someone in particular, as they would look up the name before I made the purchase.

Broz: The only complete nominal rolls I've found have been in battalion histories, the PPCLI and 44th Battalion to name two. These histories were published shortly after the war when the men's memories were still fresh and the material was readily available. As each year passes, it becomes more difficult to build complete rolls for other battalions. I have a history of the CSEF that has a complete nominal roll. It was published in 1990 and took the author many years of research to finally nail down the 4210 men who sailed to Siberia; the army embarkation list named 4192 men.

Garth

[Guest stevenbec]

Mate,

I also have a small number of such soldiers in the Australian Light Horse in Egypt.

Some of these men also served in the Camel Corps.

I have a number of Finish Seaman in the Camel Corps of which a number were killed.

Would you like a brake down?

S.B

[Broznitsky]

The only complete nominal rolls I've found have been in battalion histories, the PPCLI and 44th Battalion to name two. These histories were published shortly after the war when the men's memories were still fresh and the material was readily available. As each year passes, it becomes more difficult to build complete rolls for other battalions.

Of course Garth, you are right on this. Interesting how the embarkation for the CSEF showed a lower number than what the researcher found. I know I've read of "stowaways" in ships that sailed earlier who were allowed to join up with the battalion once landed in England . . .

[mordac]

Interesting how the embarkation for the CSEF showed a lower number than what the researcher found.  I know I've read of "stowaways" in ships that sailed earlier who were allowed to join up with the battalion once landed in England . . .

Hi Broz:

The author (J. E. Skuce) had a couple of things going for him. Siberia was a short campaign, 1918-1919, and the entire CSEF was transported on seven ships, with two ships making the voyage twice. Also, there was never any need to send ship loads of reinforcements to Siberia.

Skuce tells an interesting story about one of the members of the RNWMP who never was listed on an embarkation roll. "Equally tragic as the death of Lieutenant Thring was that of Private Henderson, "B" Squadron, RNWMP. William John Henderson was a 19 year old youth from Redcliff, Alberta, who couldn't resist the siren's song of an opportunity for active service with the RNWMP, every Western Canadian boy's dream. The dream flickered and went out for young Henderson in Valdivostok when he succumbed to the insidious killer, spinal meningitis, on December 29, 1918.

Pte. W. J. Henderson, RNWMP, in life and in death, has the distinction of being the only Mountie who never went and never came back. Through an inexplicable and bizarre series of clerical errors, his name fails to appear on any of three separate nominal rolls, all of which were drawn up in Canada prior to embarkation."

Garth

[BeppoSapone]

I have been looking for "long lost" ozzy relatives, my grandfathers brother and several of his cousins emigrated to Australia before WW1.

Whilst looking up Newmans on the "Australian Red Cross Wounded and Missing Enquiry Bureau Files" held by the AWM I found a Scandinavian who was using their name, which is Newman. There is nothing on the CWGC entry for 513 Pte Emil Newman of 35 Bn AIF that shows his origin.

Emil Newman was hit by a sniper on 6th May 1918. The man is described as being tall, well built, fair, square jawed and about 40. He was described as "either a Swede or Norwegian" who was living in Newcastle, NSW. He is also described as "a Russian Finn" and a "medium sized and dark Russian"!

See here: http://www.awm.gov.au/database/1drl428_dis...=35th+Battalion

[Bill Smy]

Hi Dwight,

The National Archives hold a variety of Nominal Rolls for embarkation - unfortunately the list is incomplete, and of course they don't reflect all the changes which happened during the war.

You can buy them here, link. They have a list for the No. 1 Auto-Machine Gun Brigade, and also 1st Machine Gun Draft from M.D. No. 6. I don't know if they made copies of all the Nominal Rolls extant.

You can also purchase the embarkation rolls directly from the archives. Much cheaper.

The National Archives of Canada has microfilm of a card index arranged numerically for the whole of the CEF. Thus if you know the block of numbers assigned to a unit, you can find everyone who was ever issued a particular number.

[NoRemorseDK]

Three points:

Re Scandinavians: I've so far compiled a list of about 1500 subjects of the danish king (being men who were born in Denmark, Iceland, Faroe Islands, Greenland or otherwise being danish nationals) who served in the CEF.

Re Stowaways: In a war diary I found mentioned several men who went to France with a unit but had to be returned to England as they were stowaways. A few of the men were permitted to stay and only some time later were they taken on strenght.

Re Nominal Rolls: I am trying to compile a list of all the men who served in various canadian railway units - so far I have about 11.000 - and I am still only dreaming of getting access to Part II daily orders.

[machodr]

Hi boys. In 223rd Canadian Infantry Battalion should it served number of man - czech native, who was formed czech detachment at this battalion. "It was in Winnipeg that volunteers from Canada and United States formed ' within the Canadian Army - the 'Bohemian Detachment' of the 223rd Battalion, Canadian Expeditionary Force." - this is mention about this at http://www.svu2000.org/whatwedo/onbehalf.htm. I shall be greatfull for any information. Thanks. John

[Ken S.]

Hi boys. In 223rd Canadian Infantry Battalion should it served number of man - czech native, who was formed czech detachment at this battalion. "It was in Winnipeg that volunteers from Canada and United States formed ' within the Canadian Army - the 'Bohemian Detachment' of the 223rd Battalion, Canadian Expeditionary Force." - this is mention about this at http://www.svu2000.org/whatwedo/onbehalf.htm. I shall be greatfull for any information. Thanks. John

I'm not familiar with the 223rd BN but the website is probably incorrect when it suggests that many of the unit's officers were Scandinavians; many of the battalions in the CEF were named to reflect the contributing regiment(s)/region, (supposed) ethnic identity of the Other Ranks, or to encourage enlistment (ie. Sportsmen's battalions).

Again, not being familiar with the 223rd BN, I'm not aware of a "Bohemian Detachment". This may just have been an informal or temporary designation (such as the Scandinavian Infantry Draft) for recruiting purposes; but such a "detachment" would likely not have continued to exist upon formation of the battalion.

[laughton]

Just an update for those that are looking for dates or other information on the 197th and the 223rd. The transport ships utility on the CEFSG Matrix now has that information - and it is being continuously updated:

http://cefresearch.com/matrix/Utilities/ships.htm

Both the 197th and the 223rd were absorbed by the 11th Reserve Battalion. A new Matrix utility was recently set up for the Reserve Battalions:

http://cefresearch.com/matrix/Utilities/re..._battalions.htm

There is a page for the 197th "Vikings", with photographs, on the Matrix here:

http://cefresearch.com/matrix/Army%20Corps...20Battalion.htm

The 223rd page has not be commissioned, as they only start ones someone raises that issue on the main CEFSG Forum.

[machodr]

Hi friends,

say about happen to be found estate singly from members 223rd Inf. Bn. CEF - Charles Pletka. Be not likely to is that a distant connection my wives Renata - his maiden names is Pletka and born place of his great - grand father is same as Charles Pletka.

Charles Pletka be born in Bohemia, just before Great War leave for USA behind washing. After outbreak Great Wars optionally entered Canadian armies. Served first in allude 223rd Inf. Bn. CEF, after it was alt to the 107th Pioneer Bn. CEF like sapper. Of his estate originate from also photograph Czech volunteers registered to the 223rd Inf. Bn. CEF.

Sorry for my bad english....

[John Gilinsky]

The archivally based (Ottawa) paysheets [ RG 9 or RG 24 ] (done practically daily in most cases) cumulation is what reflects the actual enlistees. I have done this for one unit but this unit was an unsuccesful unit (one reason why I am interested in it).

John

[Borden Battery]

Camp Hughes Under Threat - Archaeological Protection Plan

Camp Hughes (formerly Camp Sewell, circa 1910) near Brandon, Manitoba (not to be confused with Camp Shilo) was utilized to train over 40,000 men for the CEF in the Great War. This 2004 document is a William Galbraith master's thesis [227 pages] from the University of Manitoba. It provides some excellent background, historic and modern photographs including aerial, maps and detailed discussions regarding the preservation of this unique historic Canadian military training base in western Manitoba. [A Broznitsky Recommendation][CEF Study Group - Feb 2006]

http://www.umanitoba.ca/institutes/natural_resources/canadaresearchchair/thesis/wgalbraith%20masters%20thesis%202004.pdf

[nixonman]

On 23/09/2008 at 11:17, machodr said:

Hi friends,

say about happen to be found estate singly from members 223rd Inf. Bn. CEF - Charles Pletka. Be not likely to is that a distant connection my wives Renata - his maiden names is Pletka and born place of his great - grand father is same as Charles Pletka.

Charles Pletka be born in Bohemia, just before Great War leave for USA behind washing. After outbreak Great Wars optionally entered Canadian armies. Served first in allude 223rd Inf. Bn. CEF, after it was alt to the 107th Pioneer Bn. CEF like sapper. Of his estate originate from also photograph Czech volunteers registered to the 223rd Inf. Bn. CEF.

Sorry for my bad english....

 

 

Hello. I recently bought a British War Medal awarded to one of the men in the Bohemian Detachment and I was wondering if you have a high resolution copy of this image that you could share with me. Thank you for your assistance.