The 25 Canadian soldiers who were Shot at Dawn

[Guest Pete Wood]

I would like to know if anyone has seen the records of any/all of the 25 Canadian soldiers who were shot at dawn.

As the Canadian records appear to be so complete, I would like to find out if there is any paperwork which shows if the next-of-kin received a memorial plaque and scroll (we know the soldiers' medals were forfeit):

· Q.M. Sgt. William Alexander

· Bdr. Frederick Arnold

· Pte. Fortunat Auger

· Pte. Harold Carter

· Pte. Gustave Comte

· Pte. Arthur Dagesse

· Pte. Leopold Delisle

· Pte. Edward Fairburn

· Pte. Stephen Fowles

· Pte. John Higgins

· Pte. Henry Kerr

· Pte. Joseph Lalancette

· Pte. Come Laliberté

· Pte. W. Norman Ling

· Pte. Harold Lodge

· Pte. Thomas Moles

· Pte. Eugene Perry

· Pte. Edward Reynolds

· Pte. John Roberts

· Pte. Dimitro Sinizki

· Pte. Charles Welsh

· Pte. James Wilson

· Pte. Elsworth Young

I originally thought that there were 23 soldiers, not 25, who were Shot At Dawn (SAD). In order that people may 'find' the correct information in the future, when searching the forum, I have amended this post. Many thanks to Terry for pointing out my error.

Edited 18 January , 2004 by Racing Teapots

[Terry]

Actually, there was an excellent article in the Military Collectors Club of Canada Journal some time ago which went into detail on the executions of the 25 Canadians (not 23).

In each case, there were remarks about the individual's medals. Apparently 17 of the 25 men had their medals (and in some cases death plaques and memorial crosses) issued to their families!

The two names missing from your list are 541 Pte.Alexander Butler, Royal Cdn Dragoons; and 2063 Pte.Benjamin DeFehr,CASC.

Let me know if you need further details. All 25 men are listed along with what their families did (or did not) receive.

[john w.]

I havent looked far into the Canadians SAD, but have the book For Freedom and Honour by A.B. Godfrey, which seems t go nto a great deal of detail about each case... will have a look and report. Best I can do

John

[Guest Pete Wood]

Actually, there was an excellent article in the Military Collectors Club of Canada Journal some time ago which went into detail on the executions of the 25 Canadians (not 23).

In each case, there were remarks about the individual's medals. Apparently 17 of the 25 men had their medals (and in some cases death plaques and memorial crosses) issued to their families!

Thank you Terry, I will contact you off-forum.

However, from what I think you are saying this article (I can't wait to read it) shows a 'listing' of what was received. So I am still appealing for a scan or picture of the paperwork, from someone who has seen the records which shows that the memorial plaques were issued to the NoK of Canadian soldiers (SAD).

I would also ask anyone who has postive proof that the next of kin of British and/or commonwealth troops, SAD, were sent memorial plaques - please stand up and be counted.

I'd like to thank the two collectors who have just sent me pics of their SAD plaques and scrolls. But, sadly, this is not enough proof for some - as the names are not unique. Although I believe their authenticity, I really need to see the paperwork as well; I thank you for your understanding.

I publically apologise for missing off the names of Ptes Butler and DeFehr - and for any upset this may have caused anyone. I am really sorry.

[Terry]

Article will be mailed out this week. Hope it helps.

[Paul Reed]

I'd like to thank the two collectors who have just sent me pics of their SAD plaques and scrolls. But, sadly, this is not enough proof for some - as the names are not unique. Although I believe their authenticity, I really need to see the paperwork as well; I thank you for your understanding.

I quite agree that without the proof these are indeed plaques to men executed, then if they are not unique names it is just speculation; there were several Harry Wells killed in the Great War, only one of them got the VC. If you had a plaque to Harry Wells, how would you prove it was the VC? The same applies here.

Personally, I doubt that any next of kin of executed servicemen received medals and/or plaques and/or scrolls - whatever the legislation. I have no way to prove this, as such; it is just a feeling given the circumstances of their death, and how that death would have been perceived in their locality at the time.

For example, let's take a street in a Northern town where ten men are killed with the local Pals battalion, and one is executed. Half a dozen survivors come back, some of whose brothers were those killed. They know what happened to the lad who was shot - how would they feel about the mother displaying a plaque in the same way as their family?

I actually don't profess to know the answer to that question, but whatever we feel about this subject now, it is a question that needs to be considered, if never answered.

Given human nature under trying times, I wonder if people then were as compassionate as we are now when it comes to this subject?

Frankly, I do see it is an issue here, if indeed it is history we are discussing.

[john w.]

Teapots

should you get anything positive would you oblige me with a copy.. I would appreciate it.

I must admit I never considered the plaque, medals yes...

Question.. if the medals were listed on the MIC, what paperwork would show the issue of a death plaque.

Would it be on their service record? Mind you all I have for the SAD is their trial papers.

John

[Broznitsky]

Just repeating my post from the other thread:

Andrew Godefroy's small book does not unfortunately specify that the plaques were given to NOK. He offers the statement that 17 of 25 "families received the posthumous medals and memorials, most likely because they had specifically asked for them." Previously he defines the "memorials" to be the Memorial Plaque and the Mother's or Widow's Cross.

So we will have to wait for SKS to order the service papers and analyze them.

However, Godefroy states that much original documentation concerning the 25 men has gone missing.

In addition, I have a feeling that the French Canadian men may have been SAD "for example," relating to the French Army mutinies. And the lone Ukrainian Russian Sinizki may have been SAD "for example" to his Russian countrymen serving in the CEF, including my g'dad, so that they wouldn't get any Bolshevik ideas.

Peter in Vancouver

[john w.]

Peter

As I said earlier under whose control were the Canadians? The Aussies resisted Haig so they didnt execute their men.

If they were under the auspices of the British Army and therefore the Act, how did they get their medals plus plaques?

John

[Guest Pete Wood]

Question.. if the medals were listed on the MIC, what paperwork would show the issue of a death plaque.

Would it be on their service record? Mind you all I have for the SAD is their trial papers.

This is the crux of the problem, John.

The UK roll for the memorial plaque does not exist. What you will OFTEN find, though, especially in the records of UK officers and soldiers, is a receipt from the family for the plaque.

But, despite my writing to many people (including the Shot at Dawn organisations), nobody appears to have noted if this documentation is among the files of British soldiers, SAD. I've been pulling my hair out for the last two years trying to find someone who has actually looked through the British SAD files.

It is only because I have JUST found out how well managed the Canadian records are, that I have started looking to see if their records show that plaques and scrolls were issued to Canadian nex of kin. As you have read, the answer 'appears' to be YES.

However, what you must do is read the previous thread, started a few days ago, entitled DEATH PENNY. If you look at this, you'll see from David Bluestein's collection, what the paperwork looked like.

What I am now about to write is hypothetical. Let's assume that there is evidence (Terry is sending me an article, but I have not seen it, or seen the relevant paperwork) to support the fact that plaques and scrolls WERE issued to the next of kin of Canadian soldiers who were SAD. This will help me, but may NOT help you. This is because David Bluestein's evidence shows that the memorial plaques were sent to the records office in Canada. They were then distributed to the next of kin from Ottawa and other HQs.

What I am trying to say is, the HQ at (for example) Ottawa might receive a request for a medal from the family of a Canadian soldier who was SAD. The clerk who received the request would just forward it as a 'missing' medal. Unless someone cross-referenced the fact that a soldier who was SAD had his medals forfeit, the request for the 'missing' medal would eventually reach Woolwich (or who ever was manufacturing the medals). So I really CAN understand how so many medals, for SAD men, might have been issued.

I can MORE readily understand why plaques and scrolls were issued to the next of kin of soldiers who were SAD. Basically, the next of kin of everyone who wore a military uniform and died in service was entitled to a plaque and scroll. Indeed there are many families who ONLY got a plaque and scroll on the death of their son - because he died in training etc, and wasn't even entitled to one medal.

I can't find any evidence that says the families of soldiers who were SAD should NOT have received a plaque and scroll. So I am looking for evidence to support my THEORY that the families DID receive a plaque and scroll.

[Guest Pete Wood]

Personally, I doubt that any next of kin of executed servicemen received medals and/or plaques and/or scrolls - whatever the legislation. I have no way to prove this, as such; it is just a feeling given the circumstances of their death, and how that death would have been perceived in their locality at the time.

For example, let's take a street in a Northern town where ten men are killed with the local Pals battalion, and one is executed. Half a dozen survivors come back, some of whose brothers were those killed. They know what happened to the lad who was shot - how would they feel about the mother displaying a plaque in the same way as their family?

I actually don't profess to know the answer to that question, but whatever we feel about this subject now, it is a question that needs to be considered, if never answered.

Given human nature under trying times, I wonder if people then were as compassionate as we are now when it comes to this subject?

Frankly, I do see it is an issue here, if indeed it is history we are discussing.

Good point, Paul. It is something that I have not given much thought towards. I'm sure that is why the UK government applied the rules that medals should be forfeit.

But, I also believe (guess!) that this is why plaques WERE issued. They were seen as different from medals. Everyone was entitled to a bronze plaque and paper scroll, in the same way that every soldier SAD was entitled to a headstone.

I know some people are having a hard time, distinguishing between medals and the plaque. Would I be over-simplifying matters by saying that medals were 'proof of service' while a plaque was 'an aid to comfort the grieving relatives; a headstone for those buried in far away lands.'.....??

So I am not about to enter an argument about why medals were forfeit, and plaques were (probably!) issued. The fact is, the people who campaign on behalf of those who were SAD have documentation to say that soldiers who were SAD would forfeit the right to have medals made in their name. But no one yet has shown me evidence to say that their next of kin would forfeit the right to have a memorial plaque.

All I am trying to do is find the proof, either way. I am aware that 'mistakes' can happen. Most of us have come across errors in soldier's records. But, if the Canadian records confirm the numbers, over 66 per cent of the next of kin received a plaque and/or a medal. I am sure that this must be investigated by researchers of the UK records.

Whether or not the grieving mother of a soldier, who was SAD, would choose to display her son's plaque IS worthy of thought, in the light of what you have written. Perhaps this is why I have not yet seen any 'confirmed plaques' (100% authentic, with supporting evidence and/or unique names) - because they were destroyed by the families concerned.......??

[Rosemary Clarke]

Information, including full details of all Canadian executed - apart from Hector Delande who was serving with the British army - can be found at the Canadians Shot at Dawn website.

You can also contact the webmaster from there who, I am sure will be delighted to answer your questions, including those concerning memorial scrolls.

www address is a bit complicated for the site, so go to my web-site (link below) and the sites can be accessed through my Links page.

Hope that helps.

Rosemary

[john w.]

Have had a look at Godfrey's book and in it he speaks of AWOL (under21days) and desertion..

set me on a train of thought what is the difference between AWOL and desertion?

see scan from Manual of Military Law 1914

John

[mordac]

Hi All:

Just to set the record straight, 25 Canadians were Shot at Dawn. Of this number two were executed for murder.

On December 11, 2001 the Veterans Affairs Minister offered a formal apology on behalf of the Government of Canada and read the names of the 23 Canadians into the Parliamentary record. Their names have been added to our Book of Remembrance.

Please visit here for further details.

Garth

[john w.]

Okay so if the Canadians gained their medals and 'death pennys', were tried under the British Army, why didn't they forfeit their medals?

Secondly the issue of death pennys to British SAD why wasn't that done?

John

[Terry]

Peter & Rosemary,

The articles are on the way. Now we just have to rely on Canada Post and the Royal Mail to determine just how soon you will receive them!

Cheers from Canada,

Terry

[john w.]

Teapots

U got any more on those death pennys?

Have you seen my other thread in other.. AWOL vs desertion....needs a bit of defining!

John

[Guest Pete Wood]

U got any more on those death pennys?

John

As you can see above, Terry has just sent the article in the post. Once it arrives, I'll be happy to post the relevant details.

Rosemary Clarke was apparently unaware of the information, with regards to plaques and medals being sent to Canadian or British Next-of-Kin. She has forwarded my request for information to Julian Putkowski. I have asked if Rosemary's group would be willing to put my plea for information on their newsletter (if there is such a thing).

This morning I received an email from the Canadian Shot At Dawn organisation to say that it can't help and that I should contact Veterans Affairs.

Frankly, I was VERY surprised that neither organisation appears to have copies of the soldiers records (where they have survived). It made me wonder how these organisations can answer questions for the media without them....

So it appears that I shall have to do the 'shovel work', and that will take time.

If anyone has contact details for Julian Sykes, (author of Shot At Dawn), or Cathryn Corns and/or John Hughes-Wilson (co-authors of Blindfold and Alone), it might speed up matters.

Patience, I am assured, is a virtue.

[john w.]

Teapots

Anything I can do let me know and email me off forum if needs be....

John

[john w.]

Now then, if the Canadians gained their medals, who applied for them?

NoK?

Were they sent by their government?

Were they sent by mistake?

John

[Rosemary Clarke]

Peter & Rosemary,

The articles are on the way. Now we just have to rely on Canada Post and the Royal Mail to determine just how soon you will receive them!

Cheers from Canada,

Terry

Terry

Pleased to report my copy arrived in the post this morning - not bad going, I thought.

I look forward to reading it.

Many thanks for your help.

Rosemary in Hampshire

[Guest Pete Wood]

Thanks to Terry, here is positive proof that memorial plaques were indeed issued to the next of kin of Canadian soldiers who were SAD.

Like Rosemary, I am still looking through the article, but what seems to be the case is that something - medal(s), memorial plaque, scroll, cross - was made for the next of kin of all the Canadians who were SAD. The only exceptions to this were the two men who were executed for murder.

The only time that the Canadian Records Office did not send out a memorial plaque and scroll was when there was no next of kin to send them to.

There is also no dispute that the Canadian Record Office was aware that these men had been shot for their crime(s). In nearly every case, one or both the next of kin form and the medal index card has been stamped/written "forfeited shot by order of FGCM" and/or "shot by order of FGCM". But all the memorial plaques and scrolls and some of the medals and crosses have been 'ticked' as dispatched and dated.

Here is a photocopy of Pte Eugene Perry's record (shot for desertion - only 6 hours and 45 minutes absence!), with address removed, which shows his scroll was sent to his mother on the 21.1.21 and the scroll was sent 21.12.21; his medals and cross were sent on 30.9.20.

I have written to the author of the article to see if there is more that can be added to this story.

If you wish to compare the photocopy below to a document of another Canadian soldier (from David Bluestein's collection) look at http://www.1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=8136&st=0

[Guest Doc McCreery]

Hello, I am the author of the article regarding medals issued to Canadians who were executed during the Great War. “Were Medals Issued To Canadians Executed

In The First World War? Which appeared in the Journal of the Military Collectors Club of Canada.

One reason why medals, plaques and scrolls were issued so promptly to Canadians likely relates to the Canadian Silver Memorial Cross. Many of you will know that a Silver Memorial Cross was issued to the Next of Kin (widows and mothers) of Canadians who died in the First World War (it is still on issue for Canadians killed in the service). These Memorial Crosses were ordered by the Department of Militia and Defence (DMD) here in Ottawa. Most were sent out in late 1919 and through the 1920s. They were issued to those wife/mother of Canadian servicemen who died in the Great War. Thus it was not a medal to the soldier himself, and it could not be forfeited (there are no provisions in the regulations constitution the Memorial Cross for forfeiture).

There is some evidence that when officials from DMD saw that a Memorial Cross was issued they would assume that Medals, Plaque and a Scroll should also be issued. The Medal Index Cards are stamped with the dates which each of these items were posted (one date for Memorial Cross, one date for Medals and one date for the Scroll and Death Plaque). The Department of Militia and Defence (DMD) here in Ottawa sent off their lists and the medals were prepared, same with plaques and scrolls. British officials had little reason to believe that there was any problem with the lists sent from Canada.

As for the British Army Act and how it was applied to Canadian SADs the Act was not fully enforced in Canada following the War because of Resolution IX of the Imperial War Conference which effectively removed all British government control from Canada (there is a long constitutional explanation that I will avoid boring you with, despite teaching a course on the subject). Canadian officials and senior officers continued to use most parts of the Act, but were able to ignore other parts of it.

There is the added aspect that officials at DMD were rather understaffed and were most concerned with getting all of the medals issued (it was a huge task for a department that was so rapidly downsized with demobilization of the CEF). All of the Medal Index Cards indicate that the soldiers were executed, so there was obviously a policy to issue the medals despite their crimes. It would have been difficult to explain to the Next of Kin why they received a Memorial Cross and not their son/husband's medals, plaque and scroll.

Whether or not this policy came about because of the early issue of Memorial Crosses to the next of kin of SADs or because Canadian officials believed that the medals should be issued regardless of the conduct of the soldier in question is another story. Main point being is that Medals, Scrolls, Plaques and Memorial Crosses were issued to Canadian SADs except those who committed murder.

Hope that this is of some help. Chris McCreery

[182 CEF]

I remember reading that one of these Canadians was shot because he fell out on a long march. His feet hurt badly and he took off his boots, he could not get them back on to ketch up with his unit. They decieded to make an example of him and so he was shot!!

Shooting any Soldier that was a Volntr. is a discrace. The Canadian Gov. should hang it's collective head in SHAME!!!!!!!!

At one time ( when I was younger and in the Canadian Army I may not have thought the way I do now) and I probably thought they desearved it, however I now relize that they asked to go, and for what ever reason they did not or could not carry on. Unless these men commited Capitol Crimes they should be " re-enstated" However with a Liberal Gov it will not happen.

Dean Owen

Whitby Ontario

[paul guthrie]

Would it be more likely with conservative govt? If so why?