My Boy Jack

[marina]

It is possible to pity the vets for what was expected of them, but still to admire their spirit and indominatibility.

Marina

[Beau Geste]

It is possible to pity the vets for what was expected of them, but still to admire their spirit and indominatibility.

Marina

Absolutely!!!!!

Harry

[Max]

I watched the film last night and have to say that I was slightly disappointed, my wife and nine year old daughter were blubbing and enjoyed it thoroughly. I do have a problem with films that purport to be a "true story", but then go on to fanny around with fact just to enhance the script. If the writer/director didn't want to do a true representation of the facts then he should have written a piece of fiction, then he would have had artistic license to do what he wanted, and the story would have been just as fascinating.

[PhilB]

Perhaps a writer thinks that a work loosely based on a well known figure will be more successful than one based on a fictonal person. More viewers, more kudos, more sales. It`s not all art for art`s sake!

[salesie]

I watched the film last night and have to say that I was slightly disappointed, my wife and nine year old daughter were blubbing and enjoyed it thoroughly. I do have a problem with films that purport to be a "true story", but then go on to fanny around with fact just to enhance the script. If the writer/director didn't want to do a true representation of the facts then he should have written a piece of fiction, then he would have had artistic license to do what he wanted, and the story would have been just as fascinating.

A valid point, Max. And one I do have some sympathy for. Unfortunately, Phil_B pretty much sums it up - we live in a capitalist world and supply must react to demand otherwise new ideas will dry up due to lack of investment. I don't have a problem with capitalism per se; in my opinion there is overwhelming evidence to say its benefits greatly outweigh its downside - but I have no doubt that capitalist society is always in danger of knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

I'm not sure that "Jack" fell into this trap, though. I enjoyed it despite its flaws - but I too was slightly disappointed. In that, I thought the enormity of Kipling's "folly" could have been made much more intense by a slightly longer portrayal of the length and depth of his post-war search for Jack's body - for me his later writing of "...tell them because their fathers lied" highlights his true pain much better than "not on this tide" - however, as I said earlier, despite this I enjoyed it.

Cheers - salesie.

[Beau Geste]

I'm not sure that "Jack" fell into this trap, though. I enjoyed it despite its flaws - but I too was slightly disappointed. In that, I thought the enormity of Kipling's "folly" could have been made much more intense by a slightly longer portrayal of the length and depth of his post-war search for Jack's body - for me his later writing of "...tell them because their fathers lied" highlights his true pain much better than "not on this tide" -

Cheers - salesie.

A good point Salesie especially since the years of searching was such a dominant feature of the relationship.

I'm always prepared to show my ignorance and here I go again: where can I find a copy of "......tell them because their father's lied." I have to admit I haven't read it.

A thought's just struck me ! A hundred and thirty-one comments/opinions have been posted on this thread which suggests it really did make an impact on a lot of people. The interest it has created suggests the producers achieved something tangible whether members of The Forum enjoyed it or not.

Harry

[loganshort]

"No confusion here. I don't like Daniel Radcliffe as an actor, no matter what his role is. And I'm not tearing the programme to bits as I didn't watch it. "

You should have watched it! it was a good drama and has had a terrific effect on people and will serve its purpose, to keep the war alive in people's minds.

If you have only seen an actor in one specific role and did not like him then give him a chance in another role where he comes across very different. If Laurence Olivier was disliked for just the one role then he wouldnt have had the chance to go on playing so many different characters throughout his long and varied career.

Take away the commercial considerations (conspirecy theories) accept the drama as an attempt to tell a story within the time limits of the slot alotted to it. If the characters had been wearing black sweatshirts and trousers and played against a plain white background their performances would have been just as good and meaningfull. Try and look at it this way: It is great to have the knowledge to know all the "spot the mistakes" and is good to discuss these and bring them to the attention of everyone so we can all learn but dont use them as an excuse to ridicule a very good peice of drama!

Daniel himself said that he had no idea about teh incredible story of Kipling's son. Now a lot more people know and may have the impetous to delve into it themselves to discover more of the story.

Hopefully with Daniel going into Equus on Broadway and with the american actress Kim Cattrall's moving perfomance, the programme should sell well in USA and hopefully show them an aspect of the war they have not considered.

[robmoff]

I have to say that one of the things in the peice that affected me most was the poor telegram boy. The idea of 12-14 year old boys doing this for a living in communities where everyone knew everyone else is just so sad. I thought that he was the young lad who cleaned the Douglas, was that right?

[KIRKY]

I really enjoyed it but thought more could have been made of the search afterwards for his body perhaps a

part 2?.

Tony

[Desdichado]

If Laurence Olivier was disliked for just the one role then he wouldnt have had the chance to go on playing so many different characters throughout his long and varied career.

Olivier had his critics too but he could act unlike Radcliffe whose film role is greatly enhanced by over the top special effects. I had to take my niece to watch Harry Potter and I thought Radcliffe was a smarmy git. It's just my opinion though. I feel the same way about Robin Williams and I won't watch his stuff.

I agree with you that My Boy Jack may have some beneficial effects such as awakening people to the history of the Great War but I think that your hope that it will have a profound affect on the Yanks is a bit optimistic. Maybe Hollywood will take the script and cast Tom Cruise in the role. He won't get killed of course, but there you are.

Anyway, I'm putting my whip away as this horse is well and truly dead.

[truthergw]

I have to say that one of the things in the peice that affected me most was the poor telegram boy. The idea of 12-14 year old boys doing this for a living in communities where everyone knew everyone else is just so sad. I thought that he was the young lad who cleaned the Douglas, was that right?

You may be interested to know that my grandmother, who was widowed in 1915, lived in a very poor area where there were many barely literate women. The letter which came from the War Office was easily identifiable. She was asked several times to open and read the letters to local women. These letters had lain unopened until my Gran got home from work. The women knew well what was in them but put off the evil hour as long as possible.

[small scot]

I'm always prepared to show my ignorance and here I go again: where can I find a copy of "......tell them because their father's lied." I have to admit I haven't read it.

As far as I recall, it goes:

If any question why we died

Tell them, because our fathers lied.

I had to write an essay on war poetry for my GCSE English some years ago. So I took that piece of Kipling and compared and contrasted it with the epitaph for the Spartans at Thermopylae (in my sig). Think I may have worried the teacher a bit.

Seriously though, it's very short but a very strong piece of imagery. Shows how bitter/guilty other surviving parents may have felt as well.

[salesie]

A good point Salesie especially since the years of searching was such a dominant feature of the relationship.

I'm always prepared to show my ignorance and here I go again: where can I find a copy of "......tell them because their father's lied." I have to admit I haven't read it.

A thought's just struck me ! A hundred and thirty-one comments/opinions have been posted on this thread which suggests it really did make an impact on a lot of people. The interest it has created suggests the producers achieved something tangible whether members of The Forum enjoyed it or not.

Harry

Harry, "not this tide" is from the poem My Boy Jack at http://www.kipling.org.uk/kip_fra.htm - there is some debate about this poem being about his son, it can be interpretated as being about a sailor (Jack Tar) - personally, I'm open minded about it.

"...fathers lied" is from his collection Epitaths of the War, subtitled Common Form at http://www.web-books.com/Classics/Poetry/A...ng/Epitaphs.htm - in my opinion, these two lines show Kipling's true and lingering agony at Jack's death.

Cheers - salesie.

[Beau Geste]

Try and look at it this way: It is great to have the knowledge to know all the "spot the mistakes" and is good to discuss these and bring them to the attention of everyone so we can all learn but dont use them as an excuse to ridicule a very good peice of drama!

Now a lot more people know and may have the impetous to delve into it themselves to discover more of the story.

Well said Logan.

Harry

I really enjoyed it but thought more could have been made of the search afterwards for his body perhaps a

part 2?.

Tony

Fair comment Tony.

Harry

Harry, "not this tide" is from the poem My Boy Jack at http://www.kipling.org.uk/kip_fra.htm - there is some debate about this poem being about his son, it can be interpretated as being about a sailor (Jack Tar) - personally, I'm open minded about it.

"...fathers lied" is from his collection Epitaths of the War, subtitled Common Form at http://www.web-books.com/Classics/Poetry/A...ng/Epitaphs.htm - in my opinion, these two lines show Kipling's true and lingering agony at Jack's death.

Cheers - salesie.

Thank you my friend.

Harry

[tootrock]

"My Boy Jack" obviously made a great impact.

There were some ladies of a certain age on the bus coming back from market this afternoon, and they were discussing it, but unfortunately not loudly enough for me to hear details. They seemed to have enjoyed the programme.

Martin

[Alan Tucker]

Harry, of course pity and admiration are not mutually exclusive - but too much of one can undoubtedly have a detrimental effect on the other. This was demonstrated between the wars with the rise of the pity-driven pacifist movement; in my opinion, a totally understandable but misguided attempt to bring peace to the world but which only succeeded in causing even greater conflict.

Sorry about the bereavement. Bit generalised to say that the interwar pacifists were driven by pity. The pacifists were also driven by a high principled realisation that the war they knew about had created the seeds of the next but could only be stopped by a renunciation of violence not a repeat of it. Read some later Vera Brittain post-1936. Vera's pacifism has its seeds in her experiences of the Great War but also had an essentially Christian basis based on the Sermon on the Mount. In 1937 divisions started to appear in the Peace Pledge Union between those of 'religious' motivation and those of a 'political' perspective. Sassoon's pacifism was born out of anger rather than pity.

In the end the pacifists were a sideshow and did not cause 'even greater conflict'. If this is a dig at the appeasers those in Government were not pacifists but using diplomacy to buy time until we fully understood the Hitler threat and until we were in a position to do something about it. Two years (?) after the famous Oxford Union debate and not long after the Peace Pledge vote there was the rearming budget in 1935 and the attempt to stop Mussolini over Abyssinia with League of Nations sanctions - albeit a failure.

[Desdichado]

As far as I recall, it goes:

If any question why we died

Tell them, because our fathers lied.

I had to write an essay on war poetry for my GCSE English some years ago. So I took that piece of Kipling and compared and contrasted it with the epitaph for the Spartans at Thermopylae (in my sig). Think I may have worried the teacher a bit.

Seriously though, it's very short but a very strong piece of imagery. Shows how bitter/guilty other surviving parents may have felt as well.

I've often wondered why the Thespians didn't get their own epitaph. There are a few translations of the inscription over the Spartans' grave. Written by the poet Amphictyons, Herodotus has it thus:

Go tell the Spartans, you who read

We took there orders and lie here dead.

It's sometimes wrongly attributed to Simonides.

My second favourite lines were penned by Ivor Gurney:

I suppose France this morning is as white as here

High white clouds veiling the sun, and the mere

Cabbage fields and potato plants lovely to see

Back behind at Robecq there with the day free

In the estaminets I suppose the air is cool, and the floor

Grateful dark red; the beer and the different store

Of citron, grenadine, red wine as surely delectable

As in Nineteen Sixteen; with the round stains on the dark table.

Journals Francais tell the same news and the queer

Black printed columns give news, but no longer the fear

Of shrapnel or any evil metal torments.

High white morning as here one is sure is on France.

[redorchestra]

I'd just like to add to this thread that I thought 'My Boy Jack' was great. It had a powerful impact on me and stayed in my mind for several days afterwards.

I'd consider myself a middling Great War historian - I know more than most but nowhere near as much as a lot of people on this forum. I can't say I noticed any obvious historical errors, but I think even if I did it wouldn't have spoiled my enjoyment of the programme too much. What I am always looking for from a good drama or even a good documentary is for it to have some kind of lasting impact on me, either emotional or educational. I can say that 'My Boy Jack' had a powerful emotional impact on me. It was one of the few dramas I've ever seen that managed to encapsulate successfully the pain of sending a loved one off to the Great War and then receiving that terrible telegram.

Obviously I'd like to see dramas made with 100% historical accuracy, but as long as they are not too crippling and the rest of the programme is good I can overlook it.

[ackimzey]

It aired in Houston on PBS last night, in fact they aired it twice (once at 8 p.m. and again about midnight). I thought it was good and the conversation with the actors which followed the program was interesting.

Ann

[Rodge Dowson]

Utterly appalling.

Do you know, when Jack looked through a crack in the trench wall they showed French and not German cruciform sections for the barbed wire.

Utterly disgraceful. What do they pay researchers for?

Bring back hanging, I say.

Just watched it tonight, some other things I wondered about were the display in the hall showing the Lord K poster before war had been declared but I am uncertain as to when in 1914 it was first used?

Also when looking through photos of soldiers missing that had been provided by the Red Cross some photos pictured wearing tin hats, but the film was unclear as to how long after John Kipling went missing this was so it my be in keeping. When it was his birthday they sang 'Happy Birthday' had this come to Britain yet in 1915. It was ok and held strong emotion at points but generally is another film on a low budget - still waiting for a British film of worth to be made about the PBI in the Great War.

[armourersergeant]

Just watched it tonight, some other things I wondered about were the display in the hall showing the Lord K poster before war had been declared but I am uncertain as to when in 1914 it was first used?

Well certainly not before war started! And seeing as Kipling announced it to the audience...Arrrgh!

This film had good potential but really annoyed me when they did things like change the dates of some of the battles and his birthday. No sound historical reason to do this in my book.

regards

Arm

[Sparky53]

It seemed to stimulate a lot of visits to Jack's grave.

Jane

[truthergw]

I haven't seen the play performed, but I do have the playscript. I would not recommend this to someone wishing to study Loos or the Great War from a military history point of view. I do not believe that is the point of the play. Does anyone go to a play to learn the facts of an event? Does anyone watch a play without realising that the playwright, like a novelist or poet describing an event, is entitled and expected to exercise artistic licence? If so, I suggest it is their education that is at fault, not the play. The subject of this play was inter-relationships in a close knit family and how they reacted, together and as individuals to a tragic loss. The war is incidental. Jack could have been lost at sea, or been run over crossing the street.

[findabetterole]

If I may.. my two-peneth!

Just found this thread.. read it with great interest. I found the film very well made and balanced in all areas. The hipocracy, idiocy and 'We are better than them' attitude of the General Staff, the euforia of the period, and the utter desparation of a family trying to find out the truth of their sons situation. I found that the showing of the wrong part of a trench was hardly noticed, and certainly did not spoil my enjoyment of an excellent storyline.

If one wishes to make comment about the paying of researchers for doing nothing, then one will have a field day with the Canadian film.. Passchendaele = pattern 1938 webbing belts, buckles and webbing pouches in full view!

Seph

[AlanCurragh]

"My Boy Jack" is on ITV3 again tonight, at 9.00 (or ITV3+1 at 10.00)

Alan