My Boy Jack

[salesie]

I'm sorry Salesie but I'm not altogether sure that I follow your argument.

Why can't one pity those who fought and suffered, in one way or another, and admire them at the same time ? You seem to be suggesting that these two emotions ("pity", defined in terms of a feeling of tenderness brought on by the way they suffered during those awful years, and "admiration" which conjures up notions of "wonder") are in some way mutually exclusive. I don't think so! My attitude towards those who fought in The Great War is a mixture of the two.

I know I'm generalising to some extent here, but the fact that they suffered terribly is beyond doubt and because of that I feel 'a great compassion' (pity) towards them. At the same time, they have my admiration for being able to overcome the hardship and fear that was so often with them

I don't really know what you mean when you say that you "pity war". I'm familiar with the notion of "the pity of war" but not in the way you have expressed it. I too abhor the fact that young people are today fighting in places like Iraq and Afghanistan and those who are still preaching "dulce et decorum est", but my compassion and admiration is solely for the poor devils caught up in this abomination, not the abomination itself.

You say that my first two paragraphs contain a "glaring contradiction", I can't see where. Of course they wanted to be recognised for what they had achieved and they were full of hope that the country they had fought for so valiantly would be a place "fit for heroes" when they returned. If they were going to "rail" at anything, it wasn't the fact that ordinary people, like you and me, would treat them with admiration and compassion, it was because "the system" largely ignored the needs of them and their families and in consequence they felt utterly let down.

Great to chat with you Salesie

Harry, of course pity and admiration are not mutually exclusive - but too much of one can undoubtedly have a detrimental effect on the other. This was demonstrated between the wars with the rise of the pity-driven pacifist movement; in my opinion, a totally understandable but misguided attempt to bring peace to the world but which only succeeded in causing even greater conflict.

We agree about many things; but I still say that, in the main, returning soldiers would rail at being pitied. Unfortunately I cannot go into more detail at this time as I've just learnt of the death of my brother-in-law at the age of fifty - perhaps tomorrow?

Cheers - salesie.

[Black Jock]

Hi All,

Having attended the remembrance ceremonies on Sunday I was looking forward to “ My Boy Jack.” To say the least I was disappointed. Having served all of my youth and into maturity as an infantryman, and all that implies; I resent this liberal bandwagon taking the high cultural ground, and making small the stature of the ordinary soldier. The programme was advertised as a “Fact-based drama” which I will not lather the point, only to add that his shooting ability for someone who was basically blind, was taking drama to the limit. I see no merit in the film as it perhaps could promulgate a lie. I have nothing more to say on the subject

Tom

[Beau Geste]

Harry, of course pity and admiration are not mutually exclusive - but too much of one can undoubtedly have a detrimental effect on the other. This was demonstrated between the wars with the rise of the pity-driven pacifist movement; in my opinion, a totally understandable but misguided attempt to bring peace to the world but which only succeeded in causing even greater conflict.

We agree about many things; but I still say that, in the main, returning soldiers would rail at being pitied. Unfortunately I cannot go into more detail at this time as I've just learnt of the death of my brother-in-law at the age of fifty - perhaps tomorrow?

Cheers - salesie.

I'm so sorry to hear about your brother in law's death.

Please accept my sympathy and pass on my best wishes to his family.

Harry

[Katie Elizabeth Stewart]

Well... not absolutely sure I'm entering this discussion at the right moment, but I thought it was magnificent, and so was Daniel Radcliffe. I was slightly concerned that I would not be able to dispel the Harry Potter image, but that turned out not to be an issue even for a moment. When he was a Lieutenant and giving commands to men perhaps twice his age, it made me shiver. He was every inch the position of authority, and the father confessor/father figure position of authority that holding a responsible rank in the army entails... at the age of eighteen???

I cannot personally tell how accurate or not the production was, but I was interested in the sheer overpowering volume of compassion that was involved. I mean, grief doesn't even come into it. There is not a word in the English Language that will describe it, and Rudyard Kipling was one of millions. I have to admit also I knew very little about the man's personal life, and found myself moved especially by the fact that he was one of the few who obviously knew the score, or at least to some extent: a party to what was hushed up, the scale of the casualties. And yet his mind still would not enable him to accept the loss of his son. It is one of those irrational yet infinitely human things we all have in common: that without the experience, we think we are immune to it, if not academically then at least emotionally.

Just my humble opinion.

[Max]

When he was a Lieutenant and giving commands to men perhaps twice his age, it made me shiver. He was every inch the position of authority, and the father confessor/father figure position of authority that holding a responsible rank in the army entails... at the age of eighteen???

Of course, it is likely that the Irish Guardsmen were professional enough to take orders from the uniform and what it represented, rather than from the man wearing it, whatever his age or their personal feelings toward him. The scenes in which Kipling Jnr was at the front, and in combat can only be conjecture, no records exist as to the fate of young Jack so the film obviously used artistic licence to describe his final day.

[Pighills]

Katie Elizabeth said: I thought it was magnificent, and so was Daniel Radcliffe. I was slightly concerned that I would not be able to dispel the Harry Potter image, but that turned out not to be an issue even for a moment. 'End Quote'

Sorry Katie, but the glasses just shouted Harry Potter, in fact I remarked to OH that he would never rid himself of Harry going round taking parts which required the exact same glasses. That aside, I thought he was good in it too, but I enjoyed David Haig's performance much more (as stated previously).

[Katie Elizabeth Stewart]

Fair enough, Pighills. I actually though that, minus the glasses and with the addition of the moustache, there was perhaps even a passing resemblance to Wilfred Owen.

Obviously, I am aware that we know little or nothing of John Kipling's fate, other than that he 'gave to that wind blowing, and that tide!' The way David Haig read that poem in the final scene was something else altogether. With his arms around Jack's mother in the dark, a last story told as an epitaph with a flashback... quite stunning.

[Pighills]

Yes, that rendition certainly had me wiping away a tear or two!!!

[loganshort]

I didn't watch it. The thought of Harry Potter going over the top was enough to put me off.

Its a pity that you confuse a fictional character played by a very good actor with the actor and the new part he is playing. He did a good job. period. of course ther was a lot more could ahve been said but remember he constraints of a tv drama time wise. a 6 part series would still only have told part of teh wole story. things have to be condensed and it was done admirably. A faithful depiction which we should have more of, not less. there is no point in tearing something to bits because fo some very minor points that the ordinary veiwer would have absolutley no idea about. What counts is the story and the message it is trying to convey. i think it conveyed it brilliantly. Well done David Haig and the producers.

[Katie Elizabeth Stewart]

Yes, quite. Poor lad. He is almost Harry Potter before he is Daniel Radcliffe these days - ridiculous. It's as though he's only allowed to act one part and be taken seriously in his life.

[BottsGreys]

Who is this Harry Potter everyone keeps mentioning?

John:

Perhaps it is this fellow: Pte. Alfred J. Potter 1606 7th King's Royal Rifle Corps and 76457 Sjt Tank Corps, who signed the photo with his nickname--"Harry Potter."

Chris

[Desdichado]

Its a pity that you confuse a fictional character played by a very good actor with the actor and the new part he is playing. He did a good job. period. of course ther was a lot more could ahve been said but remember he constraints of a tv drama time wise. a 6 part series would still only have told part of teh wole story. things have to be condensed and it was done admirably. A faithful depiction which we should have more of, not less. there is no point in tearing something to bits because fo some very minor points that the ordinary veiwer would have absolutley no idea about. What counts is the story and the message it is trying to convey. i think it conveyed it brilliantly. Well done David Haig and the producers.

No confusion here. I don't like Daniel Radcliffe as an actor, no matter what his role is. And I'm not tearing the programme to bits as I didn't watch it.

[salesie]

I'm so sorry to hear about your brother in law's death.

Please accept my sympathy and pass on my best wishes to his family.

Harry

Thanks for your condolences, Harry.

Back to our discussion: Here's an extract from the preface of a book on my shelf - Poems Of The First World War "Never Such Innocence" written by Martin Stephen in 1988.

"For many people the anguish and truth about the First World War are forever symbolised by the work of Wilfred Owen, Siegried Sassoon, Isaac Rosenberg and other famous "trench poets". So great is the association that, in Britain at least, the term "war poets" can only mean the poets of the Great War. Or so the story goes...

To question that image of the First World War is regarded nowadays almost as sacrilege...

My own battle with the conventional image of the First World War started with a doctoral thesis on its poetry...Doubts began to come at an early stage. My research task was to explore the links between pre-war poetry and that written in the first World War. The dominant group of poets in England, in the years before 1914 at least, was the Georgian Poetry movement, with Edward Marsh as its administrator and Rupert Brooke as its chief young star. There was a disturbing disparity between what the critics appeared to be saying the Georgians had written, and what was actually there on the pages of the anthologies which had spearheaded the movement. Partly out of literary interest, and partly because I was involved in some research into military history at the same time, I began to meet with and talk to survivors of the fighting in the First World War, the most prestigious of whom was the writer and historian Charles Carrington (author, under the name of Charles Edmonds, of A Subaltern's War), the most lowly a man who had served for a few weeks in the trenches with a Lancashire regiment.

The turning-point, for me, came in an interview with a Norfolk gentleman-farmer who had served for the whole war with the artillery. He listened carefully as I waxed enthusiastic about Wilfred Owen and Siegfried Sassoon. Yes, he agreed, they were fine men, and fine poets. But, he added, I was not to think that they were altogether representative. He asked if I watched the ceremonies on Armistice Day. Had I ever wondered what it was that drew those increasingly ancient men out of their beds, and made them re-unite every year at chronic risk to life and health? He was like them. He remembered the war with sadness, sometimes with repulsion, but more often with pride. They had taken on the most professional army in Europe, and beaten it in a fair fight. They had also taken on German militarism, and, in his opinion, if the politicians had not messed it up in 1918 there might have been no Second World War..."

It is my firm belief the last thing proud men need or want is pity - and, in my opinion, as far as WW1 is concerned, the pity/admiration balance has swung too far towards the former. However, this doesn't mean we shouldn't have pity - we should just keep it in proportion, otherwise we are in danger of patronizing those we admire.

I'm not accusing you of patronization, far from it - I too shed a tear when the last post is played (I lost a couple of mates in Northern Ireland), but I remember them with pride not pity, perhaps we're just applying different words to the same feelings? It just seems to me that in this country there is too much pity and not enough admiration - but, I suppose, most people prefer to wallow in pity and who am I to criticise them for it?

Cheers - salesie.

[Desdichado]

It is my firm belief the last thing proud men need or want is pity - and, in my opinion, as far as WW1 is concerned, the pity/admiration balance has swung too far towards the former. However, this doesn't mean we shouldn't have pity - we should just keep it in proportion, otherwise we are in danger of patronizing those we admire.

I'm old enough to remember when WWI veterans were still a common sight in my home town. A few of the old boys - they would have been in their 60s then - used to go to the bowling green at our local pub on Sundays. My dad would take me along and as he played, I would sit on a bench next to some of those men. They would have a good laugh at me and tell me I was too skinny for the trenches. One of them used to give me a sip of his mild (I was eight) much to the amusement of the others. One man whose name was Albert Tattersall told me how the Germans almost "drove us into the sea". I interpreted this literally at the time imagining him fighting a German soldier on the beach, but of course I now realise that he took part in the Kaiser's Battle in 1918.

Pity them? Not a chance. In retrospect, I have nothing but admiration for those old so-and-sos and I wish they were still alive today so that I could buy them all a pint.

[Chief_Chum]

"Pity them? Not a chance. In retrospect, I have nothing but admiration for those old so-and-sos and I wish they were still alive today so that I could buy them all a pint."

- hear hear

[ianw]

The "Pity of War" as a generality - yes. But, as has been said above, just admiration and respect for the men who fought - but sympathy too.

I still don't know where the £15 million went and Daniel was given a real acting lesson by his "father"- which I suppose given his age, is just how it should be. I hope he can escape his potterisation but that depends on whether he really is an actor. I have my doubts.

[Beau Geste]

Just my humble opinion.

Great posting Katie. Your "humble opinion" is as valid as anyone's.

Harry

[Beau Geste]

Hello Salesie, good to see you back and thank you for yet another challenging post.

The turning-point, for me, came in an interview with a Norfolk gentleman-farmer who had served for the whole war with the artillery. He listened carefully as I waxed enthusiastic about Wilfred Owen and Siegfried Sassoon. Yes, he agreed, they were fine men, and fine poets. But, he added, I was not to think that they were altogether representative. He asked if I watched the ceremonies on Armistice Day. Had I ever wondered what it was that drew those increasingly ancient men out of their beds, and made them re-unite every year at chronic risk to life and health? He was like them. He remembered the war with sadness, sometimes with repulsion, but more often with pride. They had taken on the most professional army in Europe, and beaten it in a fair fight. They had also taken on German militarism, and, in his opinion, if the politicians had not messed it up in 1918 there might have been no Second World War" t is my firm belief the last thing proud men need or want is pity - and, in my opinion, as far as WW1 is concerned, the pity/admiration balance has swung too far towards the former. However, this doesn't mean we shouldn't have pity - we should just keep it in proportion, otherwise we are in danger of patronizing those we admire.

We have similar tastes. I too have "Poems of The First World War" on my bookshelf and, like you, I have supported "the revisionist view", so clearly laid out in your posting, for a long time. I recommend Charles Douie's book if you haven't already read it. He too makes the same point

as the Norfolk gentleman farmer that Charles Stephen refers to.

I think it's becoming clear as we respond to each other that we agree with each other on those issues that matter and only disagree with the way each of us defines the words we have chosen to use in our postings.

I lost a couple of mates in Northern Ireland but I remember them with pride not pity, perhaps we're just applying different words to the same feelings?

Different "meanings" perhaps rather than different words.

If people say that they pity those who served and suffered in The Great War, that use of the term for you seems to imply a negative element, as it would, incidentally, for a lot of people. I think the reason for this is because it's often used to imply weakness or to describe people who have achieved very little or nothing at all and suffer because of it. We say we pity them when we mean we feel sorry for them because of their current predicament. Sometimes the term when used in this way can even contain an element of contemptuousness.

For me, the term pity, when I use it to describe my emotions towards those who fought , is not a negative emotion. For me, it implies a deep compassion for the way they suffered, and like you I feel a real admiration for what they achieved. Stephen's gentleman farmer put it far better than I can.

The only negative emotion I feel is anger that after the war their achievements weren't recognised as they should have been and successive governments failed them in not being able to create a land fit for heroes. Their suffering continued long after the war ended.

I think therefore that if we disagree at all it's over something that doesn't matter very much at all: how we interpret a few "simple" words. What really matters is that we feel the same things - a deep pride in what those lads achieved and anger that "the spoils of war" turned out to be so sour for so many.

As always Salesie, it's good to "talk" to you.

Harry

quote]

[Beau Geste]

I'm old enough to remember when WWI veterans were still a common sight in my home town. A few of the old boys - they would have been in their 60s then - used to go to the bowling green at our local pub on Sundays. My dad would take me along and as he played, I would sit on a bench next to some of those men. They would have a good laugh at me and tell me I was too skinny for the trenches. One of them used to give me a sip of his mild (I was eight) much to the amusement of the others. One man whose name was Albert Tattersall told me how the Germans almost "drove us into the sea". I interpreted this literally at the time imagining him fighting a German soldier on the beach, but of course I now realise that he took part in the Kaiser's Battle in 1918.

Pity them? Not a chance. In retrospect, I have nothing but admiration for those old so-and-sos and I wish they were still alive today so that I could buy them all a pint.

Lovely posting Des.

I would feel the same way.

See posting 118.

Harry

[Beau Geste]

The "Pity of War" as a generality - yes. But, as has been said above, just admiration and respect for the men who fought - but sympathy too.

I still don't know where the £15 million went and Daniel was given a real acting lesson by his "father"- which I suppose given his age, is just how it should be. I hope he can escape his potterisation but that depends on whether he really is an actor. I have my doubts.

Yes Ian.

There's nothing wrong with feeling a "sense of tenderness" or "compassion" or even feeling "sympathetic" as you expressed it. These are all aspects of pity and the point I'm trying to make, is that there's nothing wrong with feeling these things. It doesn't stop us feeling respect, admiration and pride in what they achieved.

Pity isn't necessarily a dirty (four letter) word.

Harry

[ianw]

Quite agree that their are shades of meaning and nuances associated with the word "pity". Eventually, you can disect it so much that it ceases to have any meaning.

[salesie]

I think therefore that if we disagree at all it's over something that doesn't matter very much at all: how we interpret a few "simple" words. What really matters is that we feel the same things - a deep pride in what those lads achieved and anger that "the spoils of war" turned out to be so sour for so many.

As always Salesie, it's good to "talk" to you.

Harry

I enjoy these little chats, Harry.

Here's a crude attempt by me to express the Pity of War:

Lost.

Any news of Tommy? Just this telegram!

All brown and neat but oh so black.

They seem to forget that I’m his Mam.

Handed to me by that post-boy Sam,

Knocked on our door, peddled down the track.

Any news of Tommy? Just this telegram!

Came over all faint, had to lean on the jamb,

When stuck in my hand from behind his back.

They seem to forget that I’m his Mam.

Perhaps he’s not dead, led like a poor lamb,

Only scratched in a small attack?

Any news of Tommy? Just this telegram!

Tore off the edge, hope shored the dam.

A few polite lines; he’s never coming back.

They seem to forget that I’m his Mam.

Down to my knees, my head just swam.

Oh, Mrs Atkins! I’ll run and get Jack.

Any news of Tommy? Just this telegram!

They seem to forget that I’m his Mam.

© John Sales 2002.

Cheers - salesie.

[Beau Geste]

Quite agree that their are shades of meaning and nuances associated with the word "pity". Eventually, you can disect it so much that it ceases to have any meaning.

It's never without meaning Ian. Emotions like those, and the ability to express them is what makes human beings what they are......special.

Harry

[Desdichado]

Staggered that someone signed off £15 million to make the programme. At that level of cost, I despair at anyone making the definitive Great War film.

Now that's a real tall order. No matter what goes up on the silver screen, it won't please everyone but I do have a few favourite WWI films though I would hardly class them as definitive. The Dawn Patrol with Errol Flynn, David Niven and Basil Rathbone was terrific, even though the Germans weren't flying Fokker DVII's in 1916. Flynn's performance as Courtney was superb. I also enjoyed The Trench with Daniel Craig who acted the part of the Sergeant very well. There was also a WWI horror film I rented called Deathwatch which was quite spooky. Not for serious WWI buffs but all right for a bit of escapism.

[Beau Geste]

I enjoy these little chats, Harry.

Here's a crude attempt by me to express the Pity of War:

Lost.

Any news of Tommy? Just this telegram!

All brown and neat but oh so black.

They seem to forget that I’m his Mam.

Handed to me by that post-boy Sam,

Knocked on our door, peddled down the track.

Any news of Tommy? Just this telegram!

Came over all faint, had to lean on the jamb,

When stuck in my hand from behind his back.

They seem to forget that I’m his Mam.

Perhaps he’s not dead, led like a poor lamb,

Only scratched in a small attack?

Any news of Tommy? Just this telegram!

Tore off the edge, hope shored the dam.

A few polite lines; he’s never coming back.

They seem to forget that I’m his Mam.

Down to my knees, my head just swam.

Oh, Mrs Atkins! I’ll run and get Jack.

Any news of Tommy? Just this telegram!

They seem to forget that I’m his Mam.

© John Sales 2002.

Cheers - salesie.

Even for the sake of saving bandwidth or web space, or whatever they call it, I couldn't delete your poem.

You call it crude !!!! Maybe we should start another thread on the meaning of "crude." (only joking). It's full of all the emotions we saw expressed in My Boy Jack. Someone asked whether or not it wouldn't have been better to have had an ordinary working class family as the subject of the programme the other night. I don't think it would have made any difference at all. Any mother (parent) would have suffered in the way that Jack's mother suffered and you have captured that beautifully.

For me your poem defines "the pity of war"

Thank you for sharing it.

Harry