Exhumation, excavation and emotion

[dfaulder]

Recent postings have been challenging and I suspect that there are a huge variety of responses - we are after all individuals. I have been trying to think my way through this area.

1) My feelings (as a Grandson of one who is probably still "out there") is that our relatives fought for that land to be free. To not respect that, nullifies their sacrifice. We talk of them giving their lives. Therefore we have no claim on the land and it will be free to be used and this will involve disturbance (either though the plough, through the developer's excavator, or through erosion by wind and water).

2) Where there are known (formal) graves, I would hope that they are treated with respect and preserved although I think we have to accept that even today, it may be necessary for graves (particularly the smaller ones) to be concentrated. Where this has to happen I would hope that the exhumation and reburial is professionally and sensitively done. (We need to remember that our treatment of "ordinary" graveyards and cemeteries in Britain often lacks respect.)

3) Where there is a suspicion of unmarked graves, I would hope that ploughing or developer's excavation is carried out with care; that is, anticipating the possibility of remains being found and work having to stop whilst they are recovered - again professionally and sensitively. This would include deliberate pre-development searching for bodies. In the case of agricultural use, this is putting a considerable burden on the modern day land user/owner of an old battlefield - but a hope is just that, a hope, not a claim or right.

4) This leaves disturbances other than through normal use by local land users/owners. This would include "archaeological" digging. By archaeological I mean approved* professionally managed operations (e.g. by museums and universities etc.) I do not mean freelance "searchers" who may just happen to have done some form of archaeological training - I see that as tipping over the edge from the sort of acceptable "detectorist" land-owner approved surface surveying. (* but by whom?)

I think with respect to archaeological work, temporal proximity is a major factor that creates unease.

A. How do I feel about a field close to Hadrian's Wall being "dug"? OK - provided there is professional respect - but then I do not know of Scots, Roman, Celtic, etc. ancestors that lie there (would it change if I did? - possibly, but probably not by much).

B. How do I feel about a field close to Vierstraat (nr Ypres) being "dug"? Very mixed - and my "mix" will differ from others (even those who may also have ancestors lying there) - because we are individuals. I think we have to accept that any archaeological digging near WW1 front-lines will include the possibility of remains being found.

So what response might we desire?

i) ban all such work. That denies the possibility of some of the lost being found and identified (which really mattered to my late father (ref earlier post))

ii) allow appropriately approved work. But approved by whom - CWGC (but can they claim some sort of rights over the land?) and the landowner? That denies those who desire "to let them rest in peace".

There is no response that satisfies all. We have to accept that - and accept that we will not like some actions done by well meaning people (who well may be trying to following some form of ethical reasoning) with whom we happen to disagree.

David

[jonprice]

All very interesting this thread

first to state my credentials. my grandfather was an old contemptible who served in France and Belgium from august 1914 to the end of the war, and yes he was in the front line some of that time (mostly the early period including first Yrpres). My great uncles fought in Dublin and at Messines and one is still missing there. So I have a direct contact and stake in this.

second I was the first professional archaeologist in what is now No Mans Land. The three bodies at Martin Brown's site at Serre came up in my area of the site. My team found the bodies at Auchy. Our expertise is increasing the chance of identification, and we are constantly learning how to increase the chances of identification.

third I am an academic, and an member of the executive of the World Archaeological Congress. WAC has a policy that descendant groups should be respected and worked with, and they can be full members of WAC so my standpoint is not one of professional exclusivity.

the dead of the great war do not rest in peace. their remains are disturbed by development, deep ploughing and looting. we work as agents for CWG in the identification of missing soldiers who are found on our sites because CWG (unlike the yanks who run a battalion sized military archaeology unit to recover their few missing) has no archaeologists or forensic scientists of their own.

we work with the military, and serving soldiers, officers and ncos work as part of our teams on our sites. They are quite capable of telling us if they think we are out of order. They are not shy.

whoever we are our ancestors only died at one place in one time. we cant hope to speak for everyone else who died at another time and in another place.

if I thought that what I did breached the ethical requirements of the situation I would stop. More importantly DRAC and the police in France, and the Belgian heritage and military authorities would stop us. In Belgium now the position is very tightly controlled with the permission and presence of a specifically allocated high ranking military office required throughout any excavation of human remains from the war.

There is no romantic ideal of missing soldiers. What we find are men who died in the most appalling and gruesome ways. We recover them for a dignified burial.

Jon Price

Archaeologist

[roel22]

There is no romantic ideal of missing soldiers. What we find are men who died in the most appalling and gruesome ways. We recover them for a dignified burial.

Jon Price

Archaeologist

I couldn't agree more.

My great-grandfather's body was thrown in a massgrave in a deserted trench and his remains are probably still there.

Although I can pinpoint the location on a trenchmap, there's a snowflake's chance in hell any investigation will ever be carried out.

Had he somehow disappeared during peacetime I'm sure things would have been different.

I know the large number of missing of WW1 alone will make it impossible to recover (most of) them.

But reasons like 'let them rest in peace next to their comrades' or on 'the field of honor' are pretty annoying to me.

These men deserve a proper resting place.

Where they can be visited by their relatives.

Like their comrades buried in the cemeteries.

Like everybody else.

Roel

[ianw]

Roel - I would have thought that the possible location of a mass grave from any period would be a matter of interest to the authorities.

Ian

[roel22]

As far as I know CWGC or its German equivalent have long ago stopped to look for wargraves and only come into action when a grave is found during ploughing or construction. Fromelles may be an exception, but even with the presented evidence it took ages before a serious investigation was carried out.

[Moston]

I struggle with the whole notion that our boys 'rest in peace' in the fields.

Didn't every soldier fear being killed and never found? - didn't they go the extra mile when they knew ID tags were crap to buy additonal metal ones to assist in their identitiy?

I'm sure they much rather be 'found' and identified and given an appropriate burial. It's the 'found & identified' bit which is the most contraversial part...when, by whom and how.

[dfaulder]

I struggle with the whole notion that our boys 'rest in peace' in the fields.

Didn't every soldier fear being killed and never found? - didn't they go the extra mile when they knew ID tags were crap to buy additional metal ones to assist in their identity?

I'm sure they much rather be 'found' and identified and given an appropriate burial. It's the 'found & identified' bit which is the most controversial part...when, by whom and how.

I too struggle, but am aware that my personal (and confused) view is different to that of my late father's more definite view. (As I stated earlier he was born a few weeks after his father was killed somewhere in the fields near Vierstraat - the same fields as Roel22's G-grandfather)

I think as "time goes by" the consensus will change (for good or ill).

Perhaps the individual soldier feared two main things (I have never served - so I stand to be contradicted, or more hopefully be lead to a wider view):

1) Dying/being dead - possibly in considerable pain and alone

2) Their relatives struggling after their death

One's own view of "what happens on death" will also amplify the above, and I would be interested to know how the military prepared servicemen for possible death (and the possible lack of formal funeral rites - after all they expected soldiers to move on leaving the dying), and whether the views promulgated in theatre matched those at home. Today there is less of a consensus of "what happens" and this makes consideration much more difficult (and divisive). Some believe there is nothing (so the importance of "the body" is minimal, the respect that is looked for is more a concern that in today's society there is some form of social cohesion and respect for individuals). At the other end of the spectrum some believe that formal rites are necessary for the peace of the soul of the departed.

• I feel certain that my Grand-father would have wanted to be found and given proper burial. However, my (contemporary) personal (possibly minority) view is that "he ceased" on death and therefore his view can no longer directly count.
• I know his widow mourned him for the rest of her life (45 more years) and that during her lifetime, compassion (if nothing else) says that we should have tried to help her gain whatever comfort was available. (Arguably that is what the clearances tried to do - subject eventually to a cost-benefit analysis of the feasibility of continuing, resources being finite.)
• I know my father as he approached the end of his life was concerned about "what happened" to his father (life, body and soul) and how he would account to him for his own life when they met.
• Even though my father is now dead (and I do not think I believe that he "is" in any sense of the word any more), and even though his personal attitude was that his own body would have no continuing meaning (he gave it to MND research and asked that his ashes be scattered - possibly at sea), I would gain some comfort (possibly related to coping with my father's death rather than anything else) from the thought that my Grandfather's remains might one day be found and "put safe". (i.e. processed (buried / put in an ossuary / cremated) in such a way that they will not in the future be the possible subject of insensitive developers, aggressive ploughing, "treasure hunters", etc.. Still being "out there" is very much a "No Man's Land" and possibly that is why I do not sign up to the "let them rest in peace" agenda.
• I have no children, but I have (a half-German) nephew - too young to know or have views. I cannot expect him to carry forward my grandparent's, my father's, my own, (or even his parent's) views.

I see the memory of my Grand-father crossing from being the subject of a connected personal memory to history. As this happens (in their own ways) to all those who died, so the consensus of attitudes will change. Instead of being focused on individuals it may become more a matter of us (again in different personal ways) demonstrating, through our respect for those who died 90+ years ago, how we will treat those who are currently dying in our name. Possibly in today's uncertain times, it is important that we (even those of us who claim to be agnostic) are prepared to do so, as our preparedness to do so is the only way we can personally demonstrate our commitment to the military covenant.

David

[ianw]

Roel - I agree that the authorities have stopped looking but , as you say, Fromelles has concentrated their minds after a committed individual became determined to do something about it.

[Moston]

Brilliantly stated case David - I agree with all you say.

[roel22]

Roel - I agree that the authorities have stopped looking but , as you say, Fromelles has concentrated their minds after a committed individual became determined to do something about it.

Perhaps you're right, Ian.

It will be quite a challenge to convince the authorities - but so was finding the location where he fell.

Roel

[Auimfo]

It can be done.

The determination of Lambis Englezos convinced others to take up his cause, and with their assistance he finally persuaded the authorities to investigate the Fromelles site.

Not only were the missing men's remains located but now they are to be given honourable burials and as of today an announcement from the Australian Department of Defence states that the Australian, British and French Governments had agreed to attempt DNA matching.

What began as just the voice of one person may now result in the respectful and identified burial of a great many.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Borderman]

we work with the military, and serving soldiers, officers and ncos work as part of our teams on our sites. They are quite capable of telling us if they think we are out of order. They are not shy.

Well that's good enough for me.

Cheers

Dave

[rachelwilsdon]

hey guys,

I'm going to get personal now. I have a reletive who became one of the 'missing', and if there was any chance that his body will be identified or even found I would be greatful, he gave his life for this country and we should give him some respect by giving him a proper grave, along with any other of the soldiers, for peace of mind of the families ect..

What makes me mad is that I have read that some French farmers who find bones throw them away or into bushes, that is not respect, and I feel that any group who can try to find out who these soldiers were is doing a good thing, and I would like to get involoved somehow in helpping with this someway.

But...I don't agree with the media getting involved for entertainment, if it is for a serious programe then thats fine.

[Peter and Ellen]

Hi Folks,

Good string, this one.

I am relieved that most agree that we should treat our lost with dignity and be given the honour of a full and proper burial. Each one that is found reconnects them to us once more, and we do care. The saddest graves that I see are the ones where they could not even tell the nationality of who they buried...what a sad thing. Rumours are that on some occassions they barely had enough to call it a burial.

The thing I want to add is that we have all talked/read about emotive issues but the governments ARE petrified that amateur archaeologists are going to start finding more of these mass graves (and they are out there) and it will cost millions of dollars/pounds.

I have had discussions with Lambis and he speaks of spin and frustration............I hear government cash registers ringing.

At the conclusion of the Memorial Service at the end of the dig at Fromelles last year, I gave Lambis a huge hug from myself and the People of Australia, and then a second hug on behalf of those boys there in the ground that he swore an oath to that he would get them recognised and reburied in a dignified manner.

At that time, I gave Lambis my word that I would return to the Mass Grave at Fromelles and call out each and every one of their names on 19 July. Yes, I was there with Patirck Lindsay's book "Fromelles" and I called them out, and it was just after 6.30pm. It is not easy reading all those names with tears in your eyes.

I look forward to being at Fromelles as often as I can during 2009.

Peter

[roel22]

At that time, I gave Lambis my word that I would return to the Mass Grave at Fromelles and call out each and every one of their names on 19 July. Yes, I was there with Patirck Lindsay's book "Fromelles" and I called them out, and it was just after 6.30pm. It is not easy reading all those names with tears in your eyes.

I'm sure all of these men would have been grateful for what you've done on july 19th, Peter.

Roel