Exhumation, excavation and emotion

[PBI]

http://freespace.virgin.net/jack.clegg/bat...0scavengers.htm

I found this Article.The Author has raised some interesting points,however He carefully Omits the Fact that some of the Personal Items and insicnia recovered from Battlefield Exhumations are finding their way on to the Collectors Market..I have a Copy of the DVD "Battlefield Scavengers"..and it makes for very Chilling Viewing.

[frans]

http://freespace.virgin.net/jack.clegg/bat...0scavengers.htm

I found this Article.The Author has raised some interesting points,however He carefully Omits the Fact that some of the Personal Items and insicnia recovered from Battlefield Exhumations are finding their way on to the Collectors Market..I have a Copy of the DVD "Battlefield Scavengers"..and it makes for very Chilling Viewing.

Although this programme was made four years before I joined the group I understand the making public of this programme was banned from public screening because it was juiced up by the independant TV company. The title alone means that you can charge so much more for your programme.

At the moment of filming one of our members was cheaf of Police of Staden and three more police officers were present in plain clothes, something the TV company was not aware of.

If we were the battlefield scavengers they say we were, I think we would not invite the public eye in our mids.

It did of coarse make a dramatic stir but thankfully the group has carried on digging. We are a bit more on the ball regarding who comes to film and with what intention.

I prefer the forgotton battlefield from the BBC, where Aurel Sercu did such a tremendous job for the group.

It was in those years that Aurel with his presentation and great knowledge of the Boezinge area put Boezinge on the map.

Sadly we still get reminded of the scavenger title today, but thankfully the group has carried on and have over the years recovered many more souls, who if we would have had to stop would have had the bulldozer treatment.

[willy]

I must say that i have been priviliged to be with DeDiggers and been amongst them both at work and socialy, and i know the reverance that they show to any human remains, and that without their superb work there would be an even larger untold story around Boezinghe than there is.

Suggestions that have been made of improper conduct are absurd, and based upon non understanding of what is needed to be carried out, the conditions in which they have to work , particularly, regarding the timescale of developments etc.

To a man i salute their work and ethics, may they continue with the superb work they do.

willy

[PBI]

No Disrespect to the Fine Work carried out by De Diggers.Salut

[dutchbarge]

Personally, as desirable as a positive id might be, I am uncomfortable with that soldier sitting in a facility until such time as a decision can be made. Far better, in my mind, that he be "A British/Canadian/Australian/New Zealand/South African/Indian Soldier of the Great War, Known Unto God".

Agree with this sentiment. Cheers, Bill

[Martin Brown]

Agree with this sentiment. Cheers, Bill

Is it not better that he is kept respectfully in what is, to all intents, a mortuary while efforts are made to give him a name and a family and then to give the family an ancestor back?

Personally I think to disturb bodies without striving to get identifications is ethically and morally indefensible.

Just a thought.

[David Filsell]

For thos taking an interest in this fascinationg thread, its worth a look at the new book by the estimable Andy Robertshaw and David Kenyon: Digging the Trenches - The Archaelogy of the Western Front. They place the topic in excellent perspective and close with four case studies of remains being identified. Their work has been subject to television programmes before, but the book makes an excell;ent case in favour of 'proper' archaelogy and identification.

[Auimfo]

I agree Martin. And as a current case proves, there is no requirement for the soldier to remain in a mortuary until identification processes are complete.

Of the five Australians recovered and buried at Buttes New British Cemetery, two were identified at the time and the other three were buried as 'Known Unto God'. However, their DNA profiles were kept on file and with recent advances, one of the others has now also been identified. There will be a ceremony very soon to place the new 'named' headstone over his grave - and very grateful decendants will be attending the service.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Martin Brown]

In respect of useful books on the subject may I also highly recommend Killing Time by Nick Saunders?

[Moston]

Martin etal...

(watcha mate!)

When a bone obvioulsy pertaining to a human is seen on the surface of a field - I always feel obliged to 'do' something.

What's it best to do in your opinion?

1) Push it beneath the surface

2) Move to nearest cemetery

3) Leave alone.

Saw hip ball joint at Leipzig salient , molar & canine adj High Wood and ulna on Hawthorn this summer alone...really hammers things home.

As you say - this is all very emotive as we're dealing with remains.

Simon.

[Borderman]

If a soldier is found on the old battlefields it’s right and proper for him to be buried in a military cemetery. The best efforts possible should be made to identify him. This is after all what happened after a battle and indeed after the war.

If a soldier is found it is a good thing if an archaeologist is there to remove the remains. They’re trained and have the skills and knowledge to make the removal properly and to record accurately the artefacts and context the remains were found in.

The bones should be studied in an attempt to identify the man but that’s all.

My only ‘gripe’ is the barely concealed joy when one is found. It becomes a ‘Tony Robinson and Mosaic’ moment. I’m informed (clearly not well enough) that much can be learned about the war from the remains. Sorry but what exactly? That shot and shell chew human flesh and shatter bone? That men die screaming and clawing the earth in terror, pinned to the ground by their ripped bodies and the overwhelming loneliness of their death?

Go find them, bring them home but just don’t try to make good TV about it. And no it doesn’t ‘bring home the reality of war’. Getting shot does. Treading on a mine does.

Perhaps I’m being unfair, probably am. But in my minds eye I can see a TV program - a skull slowly being unearthed by a well worn trowel. The white of the bone revealed and the trowel leading the camera to the hole and fractures of a bullet hole. The excitement! Can’t help thinking it’s pornography.

And yet for my sins, I was fascinated by the data from the remains found from the Battle of Towton. I accept that such work has lead to a greater understanding of not only the warfare of the period but of the very people who fought and lived in those times.

Hypocrite? Of course. But in my defence there’s a huge chasm between them.

Anyway, what do I know

Dave

[Martin Brown]

Hi Siman and Hello Dave

Simon, I tend to get them to the nearest cemetery if it's an odd bit.

Dave, you make an interesting point about it being like pornography and then talking about Towton. It's a similar question to the one that asks when it becomes acceptable to re-enact a conflict. Time distance is everything, I suppose.

Having held the worn trowel and the skull I have had to think about the ethics of all this myself. Previously I haven't offered my own opinions here but here goes.

The TV stuff is an interesting alliance. We believe that we have stories about the conflict and they can be about other things than skeletons. Unfortunately the TV are obsessed with the bones and want that, whatever. Two projects I have been involved with have included the TV people telling us that they didn't have enough for a story, despite lots of lovely material. What they actually meant, and one later admitted , was "Where's the body?".

My defence of being involved in the programmes centring on human remains is that these are fascinating human stories and they allow us to do several things. They actually help flesh out the men and remind us that they were once like us and not just sepia figures: Forum members mostly know this but others may need it pointing out. In addition I do think it worthwhile to point out the unpleasantness of the war. I'm not a pacifist but I do think the pathology is worth reporting as it tells us something that so many war narratives do not - too many either gloss over the truth or overplay it because they are over-compensating - the actual bone evidence or the maggot larvae are hard evidence. I also think that these tales embody the stories, quite literally giving a human element. However they do make it appear that all we do on our excavations is look for human remains, which is definitely not the case and I was profoundly grateful that when we found the Australian at Plugstreet this summer that we were working without a commercial film crew, as it does alter the dynamic.

[stripeyman]

I agree with Bordermans comments.

I have found 'bits' of men such as jaw complete with teeth, but what is to done with a few pieces of spine?

These were some distance into chalky field 'somewhere in France'. they were grouped together and reburied at the grassy

edge of the field. What else is to be done.....call the authorities ? inform CWGC ? ingnor them ?. take em home!.

The last remark is there because some people do or did bring bones back with them from a trip.

Those bones were of course a person but that soul is no more, they do not exist, gone from this life.

You live, you die, thats all.............

Bob Grundy

[Simmo]

What's the purpose of the Plugstreet excavations? I've had a look at the blog and i'm still not sure. Is it a comparison of construction techniques used in training to those used on the battlefield?

[Martin Brown]

Hi Simmo

The original exercise followed excavations on Anzac 3 Div training trenches on Salisbury Plain (UK). We wanted to go out to see if things they had practiced in UK had been put into practice in Belgium. We also wanted to see if we could detect a particular unit from the archaeology (it's not that easy).

What then happened was that the plan only just survived first contact. The simple question about training was fairly easily answered in that they did do what they had learned and yes the training was effective. However other narratives began to emerge including the archaeology of destruction connected to the mine blasts and civilian archaeologies connected to the experience of the locals who fled the war leaving homes and possesions behind and who then had to return, so we've been loooking at the evidence of the reconstruction, which is a much neglected tale.

In addition we're trying to explore the wider landscape as it changed between 1914 and about 1925, going from late medieval appearance to wasteland to modern landscape. This will set the dig sites into a wider physical, social and temporal context.

What we're not doing is just digging trenches to find rusty stuff. The attempt is to throw every archaeological technique available at the area to see what sticks and what gives us new insights into processes in the landscape, moments of war and human experiences, both soldier and civilian.

The book will be out next year (shameless plug).

Does that help?

Best

Martin

[Martin Brown]

In respect of useful books on the subject may I also highly recommend Killing Time by Nick Saunders?

There is also a long piece by Alastair Fraser and me in Scorched Earth, edited by Tony Pollard and Iain Banks and published by Brill. In the article ("Mud, Blood & Missing Men") we tell the full version of My site at Serre, where we were digging in the Heidenkopf and where we found 3 bodies, two of which now have identities.

[Moston]

There is also a long piece by Alastair Fraser and me in Scorched Earth, edited by Tony Pollard and Iain Banks and published by Brill. In the article ("Mud, Blood & Missing Men") we tell the full version of My site at Serre, where we were digging in the Heidenkopf and where we found 3 bodies, two of which now have identities.

Last I 'heard' was that the doors weren't completely closed on the work trying to identify the 'Kings Own' you found...are there any update on this?

[MACRAE]

I have been out with the Diggers several times in no way do they steal anything they record everything by camera and notes a tad silly if you have intentions of stealing something eh. The film crew did some secret filming at a collectors meeting and some of those " so called collectors are grave robbers without any doubt" not the diggers. the collectors shown seem to have very little morals . Despite that the film crew seem to be unaware of what happens during a battle when a artillery barrage starts soldiers being blown to bits bodies that have been buried blown out of there resting place and personal items being blown all over the place. They should have did there home work first before accusing the diggers of grave robbing.

Dan

[equusv]

Should they be left "where they lie"?

I fear that there are probably as many opinions as there are 'lost'. And they will change.

Towards the end of his life, my father (who was suffering from MND) became very concerned about the thought that his father may be still lying face down in the Ypres mud. (I suspect that he is more likely lying in a "known unto God" grave). He would have found it a great comfort to know that the father he never knew was buried in a known place.

My father in the 1920s at Tyne Cott - as he said: the nearest he could get to his father

In respect of TV involvement, I think one of the most important considerations (aside from respect for the remains), is that next of kin of identified remains are sensitively informed before transmission.

In respect of declaring land "sacred", one of the purposes of the war was to ensure that France and Belgian should be "free". Taking a whole lot of their freed land (such as a 10km strip along the front - which moved considerably) and declaring it "sacred" (with associated restrictions) is against what the war was fought for. Their commitment to the cemetaries which dominate parts of their landscape is already considerable.

David

'David,

A am late to this discussion. What a touching and meaningful photo. Thanks so much for that.

To me it speaks powerfully to efforts being made in disturbed land; ie. construction sites, to recover and possibly identify bodies on the Western Front or at least regiments or even countries of origin if at all possible. It IS meaningful and it would have been valued so much by the boy in the picture to have a grave site to visit.

Bonfire

[Guest Rod Bedford]

Dear All

In the past we have debated the issue of exhuming/excavating human remains on archaeological sites on the Front. Reactions have been interesting, ranging from "Leave them where they are" to "Another one brought home".

I am trying to draw together views on this field for a conference paper I am presenting later in the year about this fraught area and would like to hear from Forum Pals about their views.

Questions for discussion might include:

• Do you mind archaeologists excavating Great War remains?
• Does study of the remains by specialists concern you?
• Is the involvement of TV, as sometimes happens, bother you?
• Does Archaeology help identify remains?
• Should archaeologists have a say in the modus operandi of the authorities in theatre, such as CWGC/Ancients Combatants?

I realise that this is an emotional area so please respect others rights to their opinion.

Any views expressed here may be used in my presentation but authors/posters will remain anonymous.

All good wishes and thank you

Martin

As a member of the Royal British Legion Somme branch and former Policeman my own personel views;

• Do you mind archaeologists excavating Great War remains?
• Yes, The task belongs to the CWGC and their tried tested and expert skills.
• Does study of the remains by specialists concern you?
• Yes, Our fallen deserve to be recovered and buried with dignity, If before your death you donate your body to sicience you have made that choice, our fallen gave no such permission.
• Is the involvement of TV, as sometimes happens, bother you?
• Yes, You would'nt be allowed to film a Road Crash victim, or a long lost missing person remians being recovered, so why should a TV company with a few local "Diggers and ameteur historians" be given permission, in the past film makers just happen to be filming a dig on a battlefield when surprise suprise a Soldier or Soldier's have been found,
• Does Archaeology help identify remains?
• Yes, Archaeology helps identify remains, which is why the CWCG are so meticulas in thier recover of our fallen.
• Should archaeologists have a say in the modus operandi of the authorities in theatre, such as CWGC/Ancients Combatants?
• Certinly not, the CWGC recover all artifacts from a recovery site, after carefully examination including forensic examination, the information is passed to the Soldiers respective government for burial, for British Serviceman the MOD make the final decision on the identification and arrangements for burial.
• There are still many Children of our 1WW fallen alive, just before the 2nd World War, the IWGC issued a statement, " The job of buring our dead in now vastly completed, apart from those that nature still has to surrender"
• Thankfully CWGC staff commit thier life's to the care of our fallen, as so many generation of CWGC staff have, "God bless them" Yesterdays, todays, and tomorrows CWGC staff.

[Seadog]

Martin

Surely there is a question missing from your list:

Q. Do you agree with battlefield excavations being undertaken solely for the purpose of making a commercial TV programme.

A. No!

RBL Somme Branch.

Totally agree with all of your sentiments.

Norman

[Martin Brown]

Last I 'heard' was that the doors weren't completely closed on the work trying to identify the 'Kings Own' you found...are there any update on this?

Hi Simon

Sadly no real progress on this one I'm afraid. The lack of personal effects, save for the purse, made identification incredibly difficult. He is one of around 60 other ranks missing from 1st July 16 and without any leads other than the coins we're a bit stumped. I think there are people in the Channel Islands still looking in the hope that the CI coins might give some indication to ID but to date without success.

What this does show is that the artefacts really matter. Archaeological recording and conservation meant that where the individuals had possessions with them we were able to use them to give identities to the men.

Now there are some people on this thread who seem to think archaeologists are a bad thing but no-one lese is competent to do this sort of work.

[Martin Brown]

As a member of the Royal British Legion Somme branch and former Policeman my own personel views;

• Do you mind archaeologists excavating Great War remains?
• Yes, The task belongs to the CWGC and their tried tested and expert skills.
• Does study of the remains by specialists concern you?
• Yes, Our fallen deserve to be recovered and buried with dignity, If before your death you donate your body to sicience you have made that choice, our fallen gave no such permission.
• Is the involvement of TV, as sometimes happens, bother you?
• Yes, You would'nt be allowed to film a Road Crash victim, or a long lost missing person remians being recovered, so why should a TV company with a few local "Diggers and ameteur historians" be given permission, in the past film makers just happen to be filming a dig on a battlefield when surprise suprise a Soldier or Soldier's have been found,
• Does Archaeology help identify remains?
• Yes, Archaeology helps identify remains, which is why the CWCG are so meticulas in thier recover of our fallen.
• Should archaeologists have a say in the modus operandi of the authorities in theatre, such as CWGC/Ancients Combatants?
• Certinly not, the CWGC recover all artifacts from a recovery site, after carefully examination including forensic examination, the information is passed to the Soldiers respective government for burial, for British Serviceman the MOD make the final decision on the identification and arrangements for burial.
• There are still many Children of our 1WW fallen alive, just before the 2nd World War, the IWGC issued a statement, " The job of buring our dead in now vastly completed, apart from those that nature still has to surrender"
• Thankfully CWGC staff commit thier life's to the care of our fallen, as so many generation of CWGC staff have, "God bless them" Yesterdays, todays, and tomorrows CWGC staff.

Interesting set of responses and, might I say, misconceptions. The major one is about the role of CWGC, who have no archaeologists nor archaeological training to undertake the scientific recovery of the fallen and do not, themselves undertake recovery.

As I said in my earlier response to Moston only professional archaeologists (and I use these words deliberately) have the appropriate training to do this sort of work. When we found the Serre 3 and the Plugstreet Anzac CWGC were very happy to hear from us and to work alongside us but to let us do the exhumation, as were the Belgian Army. Perhaps CWGC should employ an archaeologist to oversee and undertake exhumations.

I would also add that none of the programmes I have been involved in have used "diggers and few amateur historians". For both Serre and the Trench Detectives programmes we were all professional archaeologists and many of us are in professional bodies with codes of conduct and ethics.

There is also a big difference between an RTA and the fallen of the Great War; I'm sure i don't need to spell it out.

And in response to seadog I would ask:

Do you object to "battlefield excavations being undertaken solely for the purpose of making a commercial TV programme" or the disturbance of human remains because we in NML are explicit that we DO NOT prospect for human remains. Rather we are undertaking serious archaeological research on the conflict. Enough books and articles have already been cited in this thread for people to find out more about this if they remain sceptical.

The TV work I have undertaken was not to look for bodies it was to tell interesting stories of people and places from the Great War through sites and objects and maybe to reach new audiences; so shoot me! I can only repeat that we were not looking for bodies. However if we do find them they get the full forensic treatment to ensure that maximum information is recovered so that we can pass it to CWGC and the Joint Casualty and Compassionate Cell at MOD, or whoever, so they can then carry on their researches.

In addition we also give the same care to the Germans. This is particularly important as they VDK have very little money because of the numbers of WW2 bodies in the east who are being discovered. Without our work their bones would go in a bag and then into the ossuary - no Jakob Hones, Albert Thielecke or Leopold Rotharmel, just anonymous bones and families who still wouldn't know where he went!

The only circumstances in which I could see the situation over prospection changing would be if someone like CWGC formally commissioned us to do work that centred on recovery of remains, as has been the recent case at Fromelles or as the French did when seeking to recover Alain Fournier and his men.

[Moston]

Martin

Thanks for your detailed and well considered reply to the less than complimentary comments on professional work carried out by those who are monitored by a professional standard.

The previous two posts didn't sit well with me - but I lacked the full understanding of the recovery of remains to be able to comment.

Your work is very much appreciated by many people on this forum.

[Seadog]

Martin

Quote:

“Do you object to "battlefield excavations being undertaken solely for the purpose of making a commercial TV programme" or the disturbance of human remains because we in NML are explicit that we DO NOT prospect for human remains. Rather we are undertaking serious archaeological research on the conflict. “

Thanks for the response. It seems logical to me that if excavations are undertaken on or near the front line then there is a great possibility of human remains being discovered. This disturbing of the fallen does not sit well with me when such disturbance is caused by the making of some TV documentary which is a commercial venture, and without which the fallen would have remained in-situ for eternity as I believe would be right and proper.

Moston

Quote:

“Thanks for your detailed and well considered reply to the less than complimentary comments on professional work carried out by those who are monitored by a professional standard.”

I was not aware that I was making so called “less than complimentary” comments indeed I thought that I was responding and contributing to this debate the subject of which should be close to the heart of anyone with the remotest interest in the conflict of 1914-1918 and the just and respectful treatment of our war dead.

Norman