Toffee apple

[Max Poilu]

Didn't come from me did it?! Used to sell lots of these.

[Gunner Bailey]

Didn't come from me did it?! Used to sell lots of these.

No Max, it came from the Arras area. The other one came with the Toffee Apple I bought in Amiens.

GB

[Gunner Bailey]

Here's a photo of the text on the body.

Gunner Bailey

[centurion]

Gunner - thanks but I can't read the last numeral of the year - could you post this please?

[Gunner Bailey]

Gunner - thanks but I can't read the last numeral of the year - could you post this please?

It's 1916. I still can't trace the maker A.T.N.D.Y

GB

[PBI]

Thankfully The Stokes Mortar seems to have been more Accurate,faster to Load and Fire.Reliable.Accounts are out there which mention the Spigot end of the Toffee Apple Detatching itself midflight..thus destabilising the projectile,and in some cases causing it to drop short onto Friendly Positions.Incidentally when was the Toffee Apple/Plumb Pudding phased out of Service ?.

[centurion]

PBI

As I've posted earlier in this thread (and elsewhere) the 2 inch mortar was officially replaced by the Newton 6 inch mortar in early 1918 but ORBATs and other documents show some units retained some 2 inch until late in the war (October) and probably until the end of hostilities. No other British weapons at this time fired the toffee apple. I don't know how long the German Krupp Trench Howitzer remained in service - this fired a very large toffee apple type round.

It wasn't a spigot but a stick. Spigots remain attached to the mortar (not the 2 inch which wan't a spigot mortar). Loosing the stick might cause lateral instability but shouldn't have affected the trajectory. This sounds like some sort of malfunction at firing that might also have damaged the stick. At least one stick bomb firing French mortar had a detached form of stick

[Max Poilu]

Remember reading of the sticks becoming detached and causing injury. They appear to be secured with a simple pin - I have found a couple (sticks) over the years including one at Redan ridge as it happens!

[Gunner Bailey]

Remember reading of the sticks becoming detached and causing injury. They appear to be secured with a simple pin - I have found a couple over the years including one at Redan ridge as it happens!

Yes mine still has the original pin in it. It just plugs into the coupling piece and through into the post. Nothing much to hold it there at all. Not surprised if they came apart in mid air. Very basic engineering.

GB

[centurion]

Some relevant WW1 doggerel by a Josh Grover

W.E. ‘Josh’ Grover - The dawn chorus

Miss Minenwerfer from repose awakened,

With loving thoughts for Thomas Atkins

And with consultations with a friend

Some iron rations decided to send

The same of great dimensions dispatched by air to

Thomas Atkins, requesting R.S.V.P. to

“Come and see me when you’re free”.

Thomas Atkins awoke at dawn, heard the plop and,

With startled gaze saw the Billet-Doux through the haze,

Come tumbling over through the air with inaccurate aim

Landed in the “Sanitary Man’s” domain,

Who, emerged from the smoke, smell and dirt

Mistakenly sounded the “Gas Alert”.

In reply to Fraulein’s R.S.V.P.

Mr. Stokes and Thomas Atkins

Replied “Tout de suite” in acceptance.

And soon the air with Billets-Doux was thick

With “Toffee Apples” with metal stick

With warning note: “Do not lick!”

The dawn chorus reached “Fortissimo” with S.O.S.

Of reds and greens and onion strings

With Very lights to light up the scene,

5.9s, 4.5s and Whizz Bangs galore M.G. bullets add to the score

Till old “Sol” gained height with fiery glow

Brought the chorus down to “Pianissimo”.

Some pals have gone to Kingdom Come

And some have got a “Blighty One”,

While we who survive their rations share:

From 8 to a loaf now 4,

For that, my friend, is the fortune of war.

The folk at home will read the papers

About the war on all the fronts,

About our little do “Somewhere in France”.

The H.Q, staff, as was their wont,

Was “All quiet on the Western Front”.

[auchonvillerssomme]

When you look at the fuze on the mortar in the first picture and the small contact area, you would think the stick would have been better secured.

Mick

[59165]

Yes mine still has the original pin in it. It just plugs into the coupling piece and through into the post. Nothing much to hold it there at all. Not surprised if they came apart in mid air. Very basic engineering.

GB

GB.2 of mine have a pin with a ring but both are threaded.No threads on yours at all?

Dave.

[centurion]

When you look at the fuze on the mortar in the first picture and the small contact area, you would think the stick would have been better secured.

Mick

You're still making the error that seems to persist re the toffee apple - the fuse was not, repeat not contact. When the mortar was fired the initial shock caused a needle to penetrate a metal disc and initiate a time fuse so that the round would ideally explode just before hitting the ground thus maximising the blast effect. So size of the 'contact area' on the fuse is immaterial. Once again the number of unexploded toffee apples at Theapval was due to them being fired with only a less than quarter propellant charge so that the shock was insuficient for the needle to penetrate the disc and initiate the TIME fuse. (This was proven by an officer who crawled out and retrieved a fuse).

I'm beginning to wonder how important the stick actually was once the round was fired, aerodynamically speaking the ideal shape for a non spinning projectile is a sphere (at super sonic speeds its actually an egg -big end first) and since there was no contact fuse it didn't really matter which end up in landed.

[Max Poilu]

I thought it was just a large split pin? They were transported sans stick (with the well pictured wooden block attached to stop them rolling about) so presumably they had to be quick to assemble. Saunders notes the propensity of the stick to detach itself and become a lethal missile to the home side making them rather unpopular.

[centurion]

Given the round was in use for about two years its alsways possible that the problems mentioned resulted in a mod - ie a threaded pin

[Max Poilu]

You're still making the error that seems to persist re the toffee apple - the fuse was not, repeat not contact. When the mortar was fired the initial shock caused a needle to penetrate a metal disc and initiate a time fuse so that the round would ideally explode just before hitting the ground thus maximising the blast effect. So size of the 'contact area' on the fuse is immaterial. Once again the number of unexploded toffee apples at Theapval was due to them being fired with only a less than quarter propellant charge so that the shock was insuficient for the needle to penetrate the disc and initiate the TIME fuse. (This was proven by an officer who crawled out and retrieved a fuse).

Going to have to argue with this one (no expert on mortars - grenades are more my sphere ) but again according to Saunders only the early Toffee Apples were fitted with a time fuze. Newton later employed the simple fuze he had designed for his Pippin rifle grenade (see recent topic) which was a sensitive contact fuze designed to detonate the mortar before it buried itself thus clearing wire but causing no crater.

This type below, which is clearly derived from the Pippin (No.22 rifle grenade) type fuze:

Dave has a good pic of this in post #13.

[truthergw]

.......................

I assume you mean the 9.45 inch. This had a range of about 2,000 yds. Although operated by men of the RA (as were the 2 inch mortars but not the Stokes) they were assigned to Infantry divisions and responded to their needs.

Thanks for this reply. I missed it when it was posted and only just found it on rereading the thread.

[auchonvillerssomme]

You're still making the error that seems to persist re the toffee apple - the fuse was not, repeat not contact. When the mortar was fired the initial shock caused a needle to penetrate a metal disc and initiate a time fuse so that the round would ideally explode just before hitting the ground thus maximising the blast effect. So size of the 'contact area' on the fuse is immaterial. Once again the number of unexploded toffee apples at Theapval was due to them being fired with only a less than quarter propellant charge so that the shock was insuficient for the needle to penetrate the disc and initiate the TIME fuse. (This was proven by an officer who crawled out and retrieved a fuse).

I'm beginning to wonder how important the stick actually was once the round was fired, aerodynamically speaking the ideal shape for a non spinning projectile is a sphere (at super sonic speeds its actually an egg -big end first) and since there was no contact fuse it didn't really matter which end up in landed.

Centurion, the reason the myth persists is probably because of the cartridge protruding from the end would perhaps (unreasonably then) appear to be the initiator. What is the purpose of the cartridge?

Mick

[auchonvillerssomme]

My only knowledge of the fuzing of this weapon comes from Weapons of the Trench War, Saunders. He says that the 2 inch mortar had problems with the fuze which at first was a time fuze as used by artillery shells......the reasons were, blinds and the craters fromed when they went off and the inability ot cut wire and therefore the fuze was changed to a fuze originally developed for the pippin newton grenade...the fuze detonated the bomb before it entered the ground so the explosion was direted outwards into the wire entanglement.

To do this surely they would have to detonate immediately on impact?

Mick

[centurion]

Mick

I noticed that cartridge - it could not in itself alone be the initiator as a blow on the ground would not detonate the percussion cap in the cartride unless a very lucky hit was made on a sharp stone! It does not appear to be present in many photos of TAs. I can only think of two possibilities

1] The example in the photo is one of the TAs that was converted for use as an anti tank mine and there was once something on top of the fuse (perhaps a simple board or box with a nail) that would fire the cartridge if pressed down upon by a heavy vehicle

2] This is part of the later fuse deviced by Captain E R Pratt based on Newtons Grenade fuse (see below) with some part missing (but it doesn't seem to match with the photo Max posted).

Max

First point - if the initial fuses were time based then the stick was clearly not originally intended to ensure that the bomb landed fuse first.

Second point - as I've pointed out in a number of postings, a contact fuse was later designed and prototyped for the TM but not by Newton but by Captain E R Pratt using Newton's grenade fuse as a model. Its possible that Newton's workshop turned out the production models. Pratt (who was the officer who crawled out into no mans land to investigate the initial failures of PM time fuses) published a paper (in Australia where he eventually settled) describing both the problem with the initial time fuse and his development of a contact fuse for use if needed . As I've said I've found no evidence of the latter actually being used ( firing the TM with at least a quater charge seems to have fixed the time fuse initiation problem. I don't know the Saunders work to which you refer - is it possible to post relative extracts?

[auchonvillerssomme]

Unfortunately when i downloaded the photos i didnt have a clear picture of the headstamps on the cartridge. and I'm back in yorkshire for a few weeks now.

Mick

[Max Poilu]

Sorry but I think that is all wrong! As I say I am no expert on mortars but I belive Saunders is and his research is extensive, his book really being IMHO the 'Bible' of these early trench weapons - Mick gives the title reference above and repeats the same thoughts I did. Saunders makes no mention of Captain Pratt. The Toffee Apple and it's use of the Newton fuze was the product of Newtons Second Army Workshop.

Quote

...As I've said I've found no evidence of the latter actually being used...

I guess the evidence is that (as pictured above) most of the relics that I and others have seen have been fitted with the Newton contact fuze not a time fuze.

As regards Mick's picture the fuze is once again the Newton (Pippen) type and the protruding part is indeed the cartridge, the lugs on the casting that held the 'hat' can still be seen. What is missing unsurprisingly is the very thin tin 'hat' that corrodes away - as it always does with Pippin relics. As mentioned earlier there is more in the recent Pippin topic where I posted some pics:

 

As noted there the fuze is highly sensitive and on early non-modified models many were initiated simply by the shock of firing.

As for the stick surely it's main purpose is to act as a suitable shape to fit in the mortar and enable propulsion...

[centurion]

I enclose the link to Pratt's paper that describes the problems with the toffee apple time fuse and his development of a contact fuse. Reading it again it would seem clear that Newton manufactured the fuse based upn Pratts prototypes which in turn had utilised aspects of Newton's grenade fuse. It appears to have been Pratts experiments that led to the use of the bomb as a principle wire clearer

As the TA bombs were designed initialy for use with a time fuse the stick cannot have been intended to ensure that the bomb arived fuse first.

http://www.hellfire-corner.demon.co.uk/fuse.htm

[PBI]

Walking around outside High Wood Last Sunday,near the Crater in the Wood,Chris Noble Discovered a Near Perfect Stokes Mortar Round,which still had the Pin in Situ.Like a fool i forgot to Photograph it

[Gunner Bailey]

GB.2 of mine have a pin with a ring but both are threaded.No threads on yours at all?

Dave.

Hi Dave. No it's a plain pin and there's no threading in the hole. I assume a manufacturer saw the design weakness and added a threaded pin. Not sure how many were like that. All the pins I've seen have been plian and simple.

Gunner Bailey