Toffee apple

[auchonvillerssomme]

Nice selection of bits an pieces placed by Redan Ridge cemetery No3 (for photographing only no touching)

Including business end of toffee apple, detonator still in excellent condition.

Mick

[Katie Elizabeth Stewart]

Curious name it's got - I can see why though.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Has a few different names Trench Howitzer, 2 inch stokes mortar...

I knew someone from Penrith, whenever he was drunk he would get maudlin about home and mumble '57 pubs and clubs in penrith' would always deny he said it when sober.

Mick

[centurion]

That round has letters on it - I've turned it the right way up and blown it up but can only make out an F, an N and an O. Anyone have a better enhancing tool than me?

[auchonvillerssomme]

yes it says Trench Howitzer

mick

[willy]

no it says "if you can read this you are too close"

[truthergw]

This confectionery may contain traces of nuts.

[centurion]

yes it says Trench Howitzer

mick

If that is correct and original then this could be a rare item - not a toffee apple from the 2 inch Trench Mortar but one from the earlier Vickers 1.57 inch Trench Howitzer which also fired a toffee apple.

[Max Poilu]

Not sure about that though - this is one I photographed some years back with it's transit plug:

[centurion]

Interesting - I've never seen the 2inch refered to as a trench howitzer in any official document - its always trench mortar. I wonder why the bomb refers to howitzer.

[59165]

Every 2" Tofee I've come across(marked) have always had 2" Trench Howitzer" on it.

A lot of the ones found underground ,the lettering has just rusted off though.

This

on the tail end,1st on the top like Max's.

Dave.

[Mick D]

I take it that 2" refers to the bore of the mortar, not the projectile. What size is the 'ball' and did it vary?

Mick D

[59165]

I take it that 2" refers to the bore of the mortar, not the projectile. What size is the 'ball' and did it vary?

Mick D

Mick,

I've seen 3 diferent sizes of toffes,I only have a photo of(I think)the smallest.(could be middle size)

In the other shot is one of mine.Its about 18"dia(guess as they are at home in France & I'm UK bound for 2 weeks).My half a shoe is size 11 if thats any help

Dave.

[Mick D]

The last one in particular looks like it was a nasty beast to have fired at you!

Mick D

[centurion]

There were three types of trench mortar that fired toffee apples:

- The Krupp Trench Howitzer with a 50 mm calibre firing a 85 Kg (187 lb) bomb - max range 350 yds

- The Vickers 1.57 inch (40mm) Trench mortar firing a lighter bomb (but I don't know of exactly what weight or range except it was lighter than the Krupp and went further) - and

- The Vickers 2 inch Trench Mortar firing a 60 lb (27.2 Kg) bomb, max range about 500 yds.

The Krupp round looks from photos not to have been a true sphere more like an almost round tear drop and no protuding fuze at the front. I can only find two not too clear photos of the 1.57 in bomb and it does appear to have a semi pointed brass fuze case in the nose (as in Dave's first photo). It must also (given the shorter barrel) have had a shorter stick than the 2 inch bomb. The 2 inch fuze appears to have been blunt like the 2nd of Dave's photos. I'd hazzard a guess that Dave's smaller toffee apple is from the Vickers 1.57 in Trench Howitzer.

However there was a chemical round for the 2 inch used for gas or smoke - there are accounts of these being used as early as the Somme but I've never seen a description let alone a photo and don't know if it was the same size as the explosive bomb. Just to complicate matter whilst the 2 in bomb was a timed fuze (actuated by the shock of firing) this proved to be a problem over very short range as with a reduced firing charge the shock was not always enough to activate the fuze so an alternative contact fuze was developed which stuck out some way from the 'nose' to ensure it exploded above ground. I've seen this described but agian no photo. Most shots of the bombs show the normal blunt time fuze so I guess the contact was kept for special (short range) occassions. Lastly in 1918 surplus 2 in bombs were converted in large numbers for use as buried anti tank mines. A special pressure fuze was developed - I believe using a blank 303 round as the actuator but again I've never seen a clearly identified photo of one. These mines were laid in a number of large mine fields mid 1918. The only vehicles actually blown up were the tractors of a number of unfortunate French farmers after the war.

[centurion]

Further to my earlier posting Having looked at some sketches of 2 inch Toffee apple bombs the stick is much longer in relation to the head (or apple!) than in Daves first photo which would further suggest that its from a Vickers 1.57 inch.

[Katie Elizabeth Stewart]

'57 pubs and clubs in penrith'

I wish

[auchonvillerssomme]

Thats probably why he ended up in New Zealand then.

Back to Trench mortars. The one I have has no markings, I believe it was found by the side of Kilometre Lane when irrigation pipe was being laid (yes it is empty) it has transit plug rather than fuze.

I think the one in the top picture was brought up by the potato machine along with a few grenades and lots of German rounds (some of the grenades and rounds have disappeared since)

Mick

[TGWW]

The last one in particular looks like it was a nasty beast to have fired at you!

I think tripping over the blooming things was a huge problem. Significant numbers failed to detonate in no-mans land and were a real hazard for troops stumbling forwards after going over the top! Thiepval was apparently littered with the things.

[centurion]

I think tripping over the blooming things was a huge problem. Significant numbers failed to detonate in no-mans land and were a real hazard for troops stumbling forwards after going over the top! Thiepval was apparently littered with the things.

Covered in another thread. The reason for the Thiepval problem was that the wire they were intended to destroy was relatively close to the British lines and so they had been fired with less than a quarter the normal propelling charge. This produced insufficient shock for the time fuse to be activated (there was no contact fuze as to be really effective the rounds needed to explode just before hitting the ground).

This has given rise to the mistaken belief that the toffee apple was ineffective. An officer crawled out to the German wire and unscrewed the fuze of one and brought it back - on examination the needle that was supposed to penetrate a metal disk had almost but not quite penetrated it so that kicking one of these footballs might have produced an own goal. When fired with a more than quarter charge they seem to have worked almost everytime. The immeadiate solution was if firing at very close range, fire from slightly further back and never use less than a quarter charge. Later a contact fuse was devised but I have yet to see any evidence that this was used in any great number - if at all. The two inch Toffee apple was used in significant numbers right up to 1918 when it was officially replaced with the Newton 6 inch mortar, however some units still retained some toffee apple mortars until the end of the war - possibly because it was more portable than the six inch and had a smoke round capacity.

One of the big advantages of the toffee apple was that it had a good blast effect and left no crater that could inconvenience advancing troops. Its intended role was wire clearing and clobbering front line fortifications. It was not an anti personnel weapon this role being reserved to the 3 inch Stokes.

[truthergw]

I wouldn't want to be hit with one even if it didn't explode. Do we know if they could be seen coming in time to dodge? At least one of the German weapons could be.

[centurion]

The Vickers 2 inch Trench mortar appears to have been intended to have a relatively gentle 'lob' with an extended space between the end of the stick and the propellant charge acting as an extended expansion chamber to cushion the acceleration (this probably contributed to the fuse problem with a reduced charge that I mentioned earlier) the reason being to ensure that the bomb didn't dig in if it hit the ground before exploding. Thus it would have had a relatively low velocity and might have been spottable. However as the prime role was to blast wire and other entanglements its unlikely there would be any one standing in the target area in any case.

[truthergw]

I have watched 2"( from a distance) and 3" ( close up) mortar teams at work. I wish I shared your confidence in their marksmanship. Apart from which, these bombs must have been badly affected by wind. ( Aren't we all, at times) . Not important if all you are trying to do is drop it into the wire but sheer luck must have put some of them into the trench behind the wire. Excuse the semi-hijack but while we are on this, what would the normal range be for the 9" mortar? Am I correct in thinking that these were artillery pieces and not used by infantry?

[centurion]

I'm not sure we can extrapolate from the performance of more modern 2 and 3 inch mortars to the Vickers 2 inch firing a very different type of bomb. Whilst it used a similar tube it used a propellant charge seperated by an air space from the bomb stick rather than a charge integral to the round as in more modern mortars (and also the Stokes). The stick also acted as a stabilising tail Both of these would give it a different set of performance characteristics (whether more or less accurate would be interesting to have more information on). I did say "standing in the target area " which was usually the wire. If the charge was big enough to send the round as far as the trench line then the time fuze would almost certainly hae been activated in which case you'd get an air burst so dodging wouldn't be an option!

I assume you mean the 9.45 inch. This had a range of about 2,000 yds. Although operated by men of the RA (as were the 2 inch mortars but not the Stokes) they were assigned to Infantry divisions and responded to their needs. They were effectively too big for the job and the bomb left a substantial crater which made them unsuitable. They were difficult to shift around. They were very good at removing conctrete fortifications. By 1918 they were little used.

[Gunner Bailey]

Not sure about that though - this is one I photographed some years back with it's transit plug:

Max.

I've got one of those - identical!

Here's the two I own.

Gunner Bailey